Must Sikh men show their turban?

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AspieOtaku
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13 Dec 2012, 4:32 pm

And heres a muslim eating bacon!! [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJnui06ERt0[/youtube]

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Utnapishtim
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13 Dec 2012, 4:53 pm

abacacus wrote:

Utnapishtim wrote:

More or less he would just wear his turban and no bearskin on top of it.

In 1990 there was a Sikh Mountie who taken the RCMP to the Supreme Court of Canada to allow him to wear a turban while on duty.
http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/305130

Edit: about the Sikh solder, if he is made to take off his turban or cover it. He could use the outcome of Mandla v Dowell-Lee to sue for racial discrimination. The Lord's rulling in that case class Skihs as an ethno-religious group.

That's not discrimination. Discrimination would refusing to hire him if he was willing to remove his turban. Requiring him to maintain the standard of dress is not discrimination, he is free to find work elsewhere if his religion prevents him from upholding any of the standards the job holds.

Same as a Jewish dude working as a chef. If the kitchen specialises in pork dishes, if he wants to work there he should deal with it or find work some place else.

Are you referring to the case in Canada or in the UK?. If its the UK one then I suggest that do some research into Mandla v Dowell-Lee. As if you did then you would be aware that is was based on the interpretation of The Race Relations Act 1976, and your augment would be invalid.

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

Tequila
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13 Dec 2012, 5:09 pm

Utnapishtim wrote:

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

My point is that if a piece of headwear is mandatory for everyone in an occupation then it should apply to all. I'm not disputing this chap's ability to do the job but I am worried about the rise of divisive identity politics that this sort of stuff brings.

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13 Dec 2012, 5:18 pm

Tequila wrote:

abacacus wrote:

If the kitchen specialises in pork dishes, if he wants to work there he should deal with it or find work some place else.

Or, like some non-religious Jews, just go right in there and eat pork and bacon.

Or that. Basically, nut up and do your job or don't work there. The whys and wherefores don't matter.

Utnapishtim wrote:

Are you referring to the case in Canada or in the UK?. If its the UK one then I suggest that do some research into Mandla v Dowell-Lee. As if you did then you would be aware that is was based on the interpretation of The Race Relations Act 1976, and your augment would be invalid.

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

The UK case. I'm sorry, but telling someone to maintain the dress standard is not discrimination. By law, I may be wrong, but I'm looking at this realistically. If you feel you can't maintain that standard, find another job.

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Tequila
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13 Dec 2012, 5:27 pm

abacacus wrote:

Tequila wrote:

abacacus wrote:

If the kitchen specialises in pork dishes, if he wants to work there he should deal with it or find work some place else.

Or, like some non-religious Jews, just go right in there and eat pork and bacon.

Or that. Basically, nut up and do your job or don't work there. The whys and wherefores don't matter.

Utnapishtim wrote:

Are you referring to the case in Canada or in the UK?. If its the UK one then I suggest that do some research into Mandla v Dowell-Lee. As if you did then you would be aware that is was based on the interpretation of The Race Relations Act 1976, and your augment would be invalid.

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

Exactly. In some professions, I can't see any problem at all with people wearing turbans or Jewish skullcaps or things like that. However, in some of the others where the headwear is an integral part of the job (like bearskins for the Queen's Guard), not wearing it due to religion is very much sending out a political statement. It's hugely symbolic for me - it's as though they're saying that "wearing my religious symbol is more important than following long-accepted custom - my Sikh identity is more important than being British". It's divisive and sets people apart.

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13 Dec 2012, 5:32 pm

Tequila wrote:

Utnapishtim wrote:

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/conco ... the-sikhs/

Well IMHO about Guardsman Jatenderpal Bhullar there's some media spin on the issue. The army thought out its history has been OK with Sikhs wearing turbans. Plus from the pic on the torygraph's article its not like he's wear a pink turban, now! I can see your point, now if it was mandatory protective headwear then I'll agree with you on that. E.G. a Sikh working on a building site, should wear a hard turban. :lol:

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13 Dec 2012, 5:56 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

VIDEODROME wrote:

What would you cover those turbines with?

Turbines??????????

Lesseee.

There's that one sect of Sikhs who only wear gas turbines, but then there's that other sect who only wear coal burning steam turbines. Kinda like the orthodox Jews who have to walk around with Yamahas on their heads!

There all hard to cover up- I would think!

ROLF!

AspieOtaku
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13 Dec 2012, 6:35 pm

Misslizard wrote:

naturalplastic wrote:

VIDEODROME wrote:

What would you cover those turbines with?

You can hear the turbine spooling up when in a 300zx tt.

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13 Dec 2012, 7:19 pm

Utnapishtim wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Utnapishtim wrote:

No a turban is just one piece of clothing, a Sikh can easy wear a turban and still maintain dress standards with the other pieces of clothing there wear for the occupation!

I interpret him wearing the turban whilst being a Guardsman as him saying 'I will serve Britain as a Sikh', like many other Sikhs have historically before him. Being a soldier is metaphorically (and often literally) part of their culture, so is their loyalty. I think the reason British army has always made exception for Skihs with turbans is because they are culturally so loyal and hard-working. Due to the historical background, this isn't just some guy demanding special treatment out of the blue here, there's a long-standing dialogue between the two communities.

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13 Dec 2012, 7:34 pm

puddingmouse wrote:

You can understand why it might come across as looking like something else, though. And it's not really Sikhs I'm worried about here - all the ones I've met (which isn't very many) seem to be very placid and in some cases more British than I am.

Utnapishtim
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13 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

Tequila wrote:

The same can be said for bearskins for being purely symbolic. There more symbolical in the historical and ceremonial sense.
Ok they can be an integral part of the ceremonial functions of the job. Personally I don't consider them to be symbolical of British national identity and imagery, as there used as headgear in other military units around the world.

Oh while am on about bearskins there's still an ethical issue over there use in the realm of animal rights, as the Ministry of Defence haven't got around to replacing the real fur ones with artificial fur hats.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... kins.html#
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/entert ... 6001456805

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13 Dec 2012, 8:17 pm

Utnapishtim wrote:

The same can be said for bearskins for being purely symbolic. There more symbolical in the historical and ceremonial sense.

Alright then, if I said that I am an atheist and I don't want to wear them because I don't like the feel of them and I'd rather wear my own hat thankyouverymuch, how do you think that would go down?

Is it a part of British identity or isn't it? The throngs of tourists that come to see the perfectly turned out bearskins and their marching would think so.

Sometimes, when I watch the Guards do their bit, I think I see better at Ulster band parades.

Utnapishtim
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13 Dec 2012, 8:38 pm

Tequila wrote:

Alright then, if I said that I am an atheist and I don't want to wear them because I don't like the feel of them and I'd rather wear my own hat thankyouverymuch, how do you think that would go down?

It would go down like a led balloon. Now if you given an explation why you don't like the feel of them then who knows. :wink:

Ok then heres a question for you: Theres a vegan serving in the Grenadier Guards, can that vegan ask to wear an artificial fur bearskin or do they have to wear real one?

Tequila wrote:

Is it a part of British identity or isn't it? The throngs of tourists that come to see the perfectly turned out bearskins and their marching would think so.

Now if tourists what to see bearskins there can go to Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, and Sweden.

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13 Dec 2012, 11:22 pm

I had thought that the turban was an artifact of not cutting the hair, as opposed to being a requirement in and of itself ?

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14 Dec 2012, 5:43 am

Utnapishtim wrote:

Tequila wrote:

Alright then, if I said that I am an atheist and I don't want to wear them because I don't like the feel of them and I'd rather wear my own hat thankyouverymuch, how do you think that would go down?

It would go down like a led balloon. Now if you given an explation why you don't like the feel of them then who knows. :wink:

Ok then heres a question for you: Theres a vegan serving in the Grenadier Guards, can that vegan ask to wear an artificial fur bearskin or do they have to wear real one?

Tequila wrote:

Is it a part of British identity or isn't it? The throngs of tourists that come to see the perfectly turned out bearskins and their marching would think so.

Now if tourists what to see bearskins there can go to Belgium, Canada, Denmark, Italy, the Netherlands, and Sweden.

The vegan should wear the real bearskin if that's what's available. That's the jobs standard. Meet it or don't do the job.

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Utnapishtim
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14 Dec 2012, 6:36 am

abacacus wrote:

The vegan should wear the real bearskin if that's what's available. That's the jobs standard. Meet it or don't do the job.

So an ethical vegan should let a bear lose there skin all in the line of there work in serving Queen and country, cos' the job comes first and there ethical views of the treatment of animals has to come last. That line of thinking can justify the MOD into saying ok then lets stop pandering to the dietary wishes of dietary vegans and vegetarians, let them eat animal products.

Really now it should be the case of real fur or fake, not job or no job! Real fur or fake, one is still keeping to what you call "job standards".

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