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The_Walrus
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03 Jan 2013, 7:14 am

puddingmouse wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Yes, abortion is not a nice process once you get past a certain point. I can't imagine wanting to go through with such a procedure.

But if I did want to go through with it, then clearly I desperately don't want this child. Maybe I can't afford it, maybe it will disrupt my education or career, maybe I am simply a callous person who is likely to be a negligent parent. If I really think that it is better to have the foetus cut up into pieces and those pieces removed through my vagina, then the chances are it IS better.


It's not always about money or being 'callous' - what about the mother's physical or mental health?
I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list of reasons why one might want an abortion.



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03 Jan 2013, 7:17 am

The_Walrus wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Yes, abortion is not a nice process once you get past a certain point. I can't imagine wanting to go through with such a procedure.

But if I did want to go through with it, then clearly I desperately don't want this child. Maybe I can't afford it, maybe it will disrupt my education or career, maybe I am simply a callous person who is likely to be a negligent parent. If I really think that it is better to have the foetus cut up into pieces and those pieces removed through my vagina, then the chances are it IS better.


It's not always about money or being 'callous' - what about the mother's physical or mental health?
I wasn't trying to make an exhaustive list of reasons why one might want an abortion.


The reasons you did give were the more morally questionable ones.



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03 Jan 2013, 9:10 am

robo37 wrote:
I'm not "ignoring the feelings of the woman", I'm just pointing out that woman feeling uncomfortable for 9 months while her child is born alive for the rest of it's life ahead is preferable to having the woman comfortable while her child is killed. Plus the negative feelings often get outweighed by the possitive "motherly love"


Preferable to who? What "motherly love"? It's not going to be preferable to someone who doesn't want to have a kid and that person probably wouldn't give much "motherly love" if they're forced into it. If all women had some natural maternal instinct to fall in love with babies regardless of circumstance, there wouldn't be children who are abused and neglected by their mothers. But, there are. Sometimes severely. They may even snap and try to kill it after it's born in a postpartum depression. In the animal kingdom, throughout history, and over many cultures, females who have offspring they don't want just deny care so that it dies of starvation, sickness, or exposure.

Pregnancy for a woman isn't just "being uncomfortable for 9 months." It has an impact on everything. Health. Relations with family - What if she's a teenager and her family would turn against her for getting knocked up out of wedlock? If in school or working, she may lose these things and her whole life gets turned upside down far longer than just 9 months. Especially if she's poor and doesn't want to keep the kid, this can be devastating. All that pain and angst and time, for nothing. For something they don't even want just because some guys in charge decided they care a lot about fetus.



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03 Jan 2013, 10:07 am

robo37 wrote:
I'm not "ignoring the feelings of the woman", I'm just pointing out that woman feeling uncomfortable for 9 months while her child is born alive for the rest of it's life ahead is preferable to having the woman comfortable while her child is killed. Plus the negative feelings often get outweighed by the possitive "motherly love"


Oh, right. So orphanages don't exist, because every child born is loved? Exactly how many children do you personally foster from unwanted births? What about all the children that have been abused by Catholic priests whose job was apparently to protect these orphans. The numbers of severely disabled children that are left in institutions for life.

Unicef estimate there are between 143 & 210 million orphans worldwide and 114,000 children (within the US) in institutions awaiting to be adopted and you would wish to add to these numbers?


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robo37
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03 Jan 2013, 10:16 am

I used the word "often", not "always".



cave_canem
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03 Jan 2013, 11:43 am

If the mommy doggy didn't want one of the puppies, for whatever reason, she'd just eat it. What's your point?



unknowjondoe
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04 Jan 2013, 2:27 pm

As a person that was put up for adoption I may be a little biased here. And before I go on I am not including victims of rape and the medically at risk in this, that is a very different scenario.

I have been in the middle of this discussion many times (considering I was adopted) and most the time I get called insensitive or people say I don't understand. Look at it from my point of view here my birth mother was a teenager that got pregnant. Instead of getting an abortion she decided to find a home that need a child.

It was at this point that someone said "but that is a massive emotional stress to put on someone" my response to that is, my birth mother was like me in that she was bio-polar so to say it is too much of an emotional stress does not hold up for me. Yes it may be hard but considering it was their choice that started this chain of events.

Some people try to tell me that most babies that go up for adoption just get stuck in the foster system. Yes this is true if the mother waits till after the last month to start the adoption process. It takes about 6 months to get all the paperwork started then another month or 2 to get an adoptive family found and usually 2-3 months for the paperwork to finalize. If you wait until after the baby is born it will be 6-8 months old before perspective parents are found and most parents wanting to adopt a baby prefer if they are still a baby. If they reach the 6 month mark they are usually stuck on a slippery path where their odds of adoption drop rapidly for every year they are in the system.

So if a mother wants to give the child up for adoption they need to start the process as soon as they can. That way everything can be done by the time the baby is born.

So we have gotten rid of the "What if the woman doesn't want the child?" issue. What about "What if she can not afford it?" most adoptions pay for the medical expenses. Besides rape and medical risk I do not see why abortion is need. Like I said I have had this conversation many times and I have yet to hear of another reason why abortion would be used.

Most the time abortion is used so that a mistake can be quickly and quietly covered up.

Oh PS before anyone gets after me, honestly I think the guy that was "involved" should have to pay for most of the medical costs. It is his fault too.



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04 Jan 2013, 2:51 pm

unknowjondoe wrote:
Some people try to tell me that most babies that go up for adoption just get stuck in the foster system. Yes this is true if the mother waits till after the last month to start the adoption process. It takes about 6 months to get all the paperwork started then another month or 2 to get an adoptive family found and usually 2-3 months for the paperwork to finalize. If you wait until after the baby is born it will be 6-8 months old before perspective parents are found and most parents wanting to adopt a baby prefer if they are still a baby. If they reach the 6 month mark they are usually stuck on a slippery path where their odds of adoption drop rapidly for every year they are in the system.


When I did an adoption it wasn't started until after I was in labor and an adoption agency came to visit me in the hospital after the birth and had me pick a couple out of a book. The paperwork was done within a month.

I'm still pro choice though. I never wanted kids and never wanted to be pregnant. I'd have aborted the one I did have but I waited to long to go to the doctor.



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04 Jan 2013, 2:57 pm

hanyo wrote:
unknowjondoe wrote:
Some people try to tell me that most babies that go up for adoption just get stuck in the foster system. Yes this is true if the mother waits till after the last month to start the adoption process. It takes about 6 months to get all the paperwork started then another month or 2 to get an adoptive family found and usually 2-3 months for the paperwork to finalize. If you wait until after the baby is born it will be 6-8 months old before perspective parents are found and most parents wanting to adopt a baby prefer if they are still a baby. If they reach the 6 month mark they are usually stuck on a slippery path where their odds of adoption drop rapidly for every year they are in the system.


When I did an adoption it wasn't started until after I was in labor and an adoption agency came to visit me in the hospital after the birth and had me pick a couple out of a book. The paperwork was done within a month.

I'm still pro choice though. I never wanted kids and never wanted to be pregnant. I'd have aborted the one I did have but I waited to long to go to the doctor.


You got lucky then. I am guessing you just gave up all rights and paid for the medical bills yourself? I am also betting that the adoptive parents were in the same county as you.



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04 Jan 2013, 3:01 pm

unknowjondoe wrote:

You got lucky then. I am guessing you just gave up all rights and paid for the medical bills yourself? I am also betting that the adoptive parents were in the same county as you.


I gave up all rights and the adoption agency paid everything. I had no money or insurance and if I had been billed I'd have just not paid them and ignored the bill collectors calling until they gave up. The adoptive parents were not just in the same country as me but in the same state.



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04 Jan 2013, 3:06 pm

The problem with adoption is that it is like divorcing your child. If a woman chooses to keep her child the financial burden is on her unless she gets child support payments or welfare but her standard of living goes down. Under free love communism her child becomes the financial responsibility of the collective. Although her child is no longer her own but rather is adopted into the collective nevertheless she has access to the child and can be a mother to the child but not the child's exclusive mother. All the children of the collective become her children.



unknowjondoe
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04 Jan 2013, 3:20 pm

hanyo wrote:
unknowjondoe wrote:

You got lucky then. I am guessing you just gave up all rights and paid for the medical bills yourself? I am also betting that the adoptive parents were in the same county as you.


I gave up all rights and the adoption agency paid everything. I had no money or insurance and if I had been billed I'd have just not paid them and ignored the bill collectors calling until they gave up. The adoptive parents were not just in the same country as me but in the same state.


I was saying county (it is what the government uses to divide up states), adopting within the same county is a lot easier then crossing county lines. It makes a lot more sense in that case because there is a lot less legal work needed.



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04 Jan 2013, 3:50 pm

Adoption means the mother has to give up all rights.



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04 Jan 2013, 3:51 pm

Adoption is certainly a viable option for a woman who opts to carry her pregnancy to term.

But for all that, it is in no way an adequate answer to a woman's inherent right to life, liberty and security of the person. Even if every bill is paid, and every loss during the course of her pregnancy is made good, still, at the end of the day, she is the one whose body is put through the pregnancy.

I applaud those women who opt to carry their children to term and give them up to parents who will love and care for them. But that in no way suggests that it is an appropriate course of action for any other women who find themselves pregnant.


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unknowjondoe
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04 Jan 2013, 3:52 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Adoption means the mother has to give up all rights.


Apparently you haven't heard of open adoption. And even that has many layers.



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04 Jan 2013, 3:54 pm

Is open adoption like an open marriage?