ITT: Cis Tears

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If you are transgender or an ally of the transgender community, then do not read ahead unless you are prepared to confront the enemy. In other words, "Trigger Warning: Transphobia."

I don't know what it really means to have Asperger's—or high-functioning autism, which has supplanted my diagnosis in the DSM. I try to judge people as individuals, rather than attribute their idiosyncrasies to some neurological disorder. The keyword here is "try."

I've come to associate some of my own idiosyncracies with autism. This is partly due to internet culture; outside of Tumblr, where "autism" is used to pad out peoples' profiles, the term describes any socially abnormal behavior performed without self-awareness. (Think of how many times you've seen bronies described as autistic.) There are also characters in the media who seem to be coded a autistic, such as Sheldon from The Big Bang Theory and Abed from Community.

It started out as a joke. When I got nitpicky about semantics or focused too intently on logic, I'd say that was my autism showing. "What do you mean 'breakfast' food? What about the food makes it appropriate for breakfast? Isn't this just another pointless societal norm?" This was especially common in political discussions, where the other person would often parrot language used by talking heads without thinking through the meaning of the language. "You talk about free health insurance. Insurance is only insurance if the company is betting that you won't get sick, and you're betting that you will get sick. It's not health insurance if there's no gamble. You're talking about free health care." "I don't care what argument you have to make about one phrase being less offensive than the other. 'All lives matter' and 'black lives matter' are not mutually exclusive, and it is literally prejudiced to make judgements about someone based on the phrase they use when the phrase is completely compatible with the one that you are using." These were real arguments I'd make, mind you. It's just that I'd jokingly call this the autism in me, because normal people don't act this way.

But this is how meme magic works. What starts out as a joke eventually becomes real, usually through cherry-picking and confirmation bias. I insist that people strive to be logical, even though humans are illogical creatures. I also have Asperger's. These two aspects of me must be connected because that's what the meme says.

"Why do you insist people try to be logical?" you may be asking. (If you aren't asking that, then I guess I'm strawmanning you. Hey, you want some more autism? I hate how you can't try to preemptively answer someone's question without being accused of strawmanning. Does "strawmanning" apply every time you preemptively try to answer someone's question, or only when you do a poor job and make your opposition seem silly? That's a bit of a tangent, but heck, this message is already going on for a very long time, and I suppose it helps prove my point to add even more autistic ramblings.) Well, that's because it'd make it easier for me to interact with people. A lot of socially awkward people seem to either be afraid of people or outright misanthropic. I'm not like that. I'm a social being, perhaps even extroverted. I just don't really understand people.

(I'm sorry if I'm becoming less articulate as this post goes on. I've already spent a lot of time trying to be careful with my words, and I haven't even gotten to the point of this post yet!)

Another personality trait that I've come to associate with my autism is my virtual inability to empathize with others. I mean, I CAN empathize with others, but only under very specific circumstances. If someone goes through something bad, I can usually sympathize with them. But to empathize with them, I need to have gone through either the same thing they've gone through or something that's comparable. Does this have anything to do with autism? Heck if I know. I've been told that people with Asperger's/high-functioning autism tend to have problems with empathy.

So, here's where I finally get to the point of this thread.

I am transphobic, and I want to know whether or how my transphobia connects to my diagnosis.

Now before you go call me a Nazi or whatever, (oops, more strawmanning!) being transphobic does not mean that I see transgender people as less than human or want them deprived of their human rights. (I consider accusations such as those to be strawmans. It's why I stopped watching John Oliver. He called me a Nazi.) I simply means I don't adhere to the ideology. And it is an ideology. They don't see it as an ideology, though, and more often or not, they think it's silly that I describe their beliefs as beliefs, if not outright offensive. I've been told that it's ideas like mine that are responsible for the death of innocent trans people, and what are my ideas?

If you are born with a penis, you are a man. If you are born with a vagina, you are a woman. If you are born with both or neither, you are intersex. Simple. Being a man isn't an identity. Being a woman isn't an identity. If it's bigoted to say men are people with penises, it's bigoted to say African-Americans are people of African descent living in the United States of America. That is literally what the term means.

I don't like the term LGBTQAI. I don't like how being transgender is somehow conflated with being gay, when being gay is logical and being transgender is generally nonsensical. (There are exceptions, and I get to that in the next paragraph.) I hate any umbrella terms for these communities, like "queer." It incenses me.

I mean, I used to think I got this stuff. There were some people who saw themselves as needing to be another sex, and had dangerous levels of stress because they weren't this sex, like how anorexics feel they need to lose weight. They were given surgery and hormone treatment that made their delusions seem less delusional because it was the only way they could live a relatively happy life. I was cool with that. I don't like being a dick to people who are already suffering.

But a lot of transgender people don't want to be the other sex. They want to change their "gender," which is different from sex, even though it's literally just a synonym for sex that refers to the same gender roles feminism was trying to abolish, and it's a social construct so it's not even real, but it's also somehow biological and innate? And often they want to be things like genderfluid, genderqueer, agender, bigender, non-binary.. things that are totally made-up and don't alter anything about the person other than their pronouns, which raises the question of why they care so much about pronouns.

The realization that the progressives I'd been aligning myself with for so long were promoting something absolutely insane was my redpill moment. As a result, I gradually became more conservative over the past year and a half, and now I'm practically alt-right. All my views are colored by my transphobia. I'm a global warming skeptic literally because the only reason for a layman like me to believe in climate change is that there's a scientific consensus, but there's also a scientific consensus that gender is different from sex, and a social construct, but also something biological, and so scientific consensus doesn't actually mean anything.

My transphobia has dominated my thoughts. I've become very political, but every single political view I hold is shaped by my transphobia. I used to not empathize with climate change skeptics, homophobes, or Neo-Nazis. One of my friends is a Neo-Nazi holocaust denier, because it would feel hypocritical not to associate with people whose beliefs are outrageous, because now MY beliefs are considered the outrageous ones and I know how it feels to be in a world gone mad.

My transphobia is just as important to my lifestyle and worldview as transgenderism is to a transgender person, and that's not hyperbole.

I recently lost a transgender friend of over two years because (s)he said people who are into DDLG (a fetish subculture) are mentally ill and should be locked up, and I told him/her that that was hypocritical, because he/she was refusing to apply the "it doesn't affect you, so let me live me life" defense transgender people use for their lifestyle to people with weird fetishes. He/she responded with "you're cis, you can't pretend to understand my perspective, and these are two totally different things," but in a much ruder way, and I called him/her the pot calling the kettle black and a tranny and blah blah blah.. I mean, I think people with weird fetishes are a bajillion times more logical and understandable than transgender people, because they're not lying about who they are or demanding other people lie along with them. I'd rather fetishes be a social norm than transgenderism.

I want to buy tickets to a Steven Universe fan convention, but I'm afraid to spend a ton of money to go there because I know how many transgender people are fans of the show, and I don't think I'd get along with them. It'd be one thing if they were like Christians, and you could agree to disagree and talk about something else, but it's not. You can't disagree. They are who they say they are, and denying their gender is the same as calling a black person the N-word.



Really, this has ruined my enjoyment of a lot of things. As I previously mentioned, John Oliver gave a big spiel about how because this is EXACTLY like racial segregation, women's suffrage, and the holocaust (how?), any sane person knows the transgender movement is going to win, so people on my side should give up fighting and abandon our own beliefs for our own sake. And that was at the end of the sketch, long after he said "let's stop celebrating the LGB for a bit to focus on the rest of LGBTQ," as though the last two letters have anything to do whatsoever with the first three. Doug Walker, also known as the Nostalgia Critic, posted the video on his Facebook. (Thank God he wasn't making the claims, though, just agreeing with them.. which is slightly less bad?)

A member of The Pizza Party Podcast, my favorite podcast, just came out as transgender (mere weeks after I bought one of their T-shirts, no less!), and while (s)he could be one of the cool transgender people (Blaire White, Caitlyn Jenner, Iron Liz, Ernold Johnson) it's far more likely (s)he's one of the ones whose really pushy about his/her beliefs, since that's what most transgender people seem to be.

Noelle Stevenson, creator of Lumberjanes, and, more relevant to me, a writer on Wander Over Yonder, retweeted someone else's tweet saying (paraphrase) "when parents say they don't know how to explain characters who are gay/trans/queer to their kids, they mean they're afraid their kids will be tolerant." That's infuriating to me because it seems to buy into the all-too-common false equivalency that being trans* is somehow like being gay. (Protip: If anyone uses the word "queer" as a non-slur, they're dangerous.) But it also seems to buy into the idea that kids won't be more like to be transgender when they find out other people transgender, which is obviously wrong given how many more transgender kids there are now than there were a decade ago. But I can tell from the tweet that the person who made it, and anyone who retweets it, hates me.

How many people who make media I like hate me, or would hate me if they knew I existed? John Oliver, Noelle Stevenson, Shmorky (who's changed their pronouns a bunch of times), Doug Walker, Izzy from the Pizza Party Podcast..

I really don't know if the problem is with the rest of the world, or if it's with me. This is the first time I've ever felt my Asperger's might be truly impairing me in a way that can't just be shrugged off as "social awkwardness." I don't think there is any way I can get on board with this movement, but I want to know if my transphobia, which is the natural result of my issues with empathy insistence that people try to be logical, might actually be coming from my disability and not a personality problem, in which case I can feel maybe a little less guilty about it. Would Abed Nadir be transphobic? Would Sheldon Cooper?

Going by the other posts I've seen in this subforum, it seems there are a lot of people with HFA/Asperger's who are supportive of the trans/queer movement or even transgender themselves. That is troubling. Perhaps there are other people here with my perspective who are being silent, or transgender people/allies who are willing to talk to the enemy?

Thanks for reading this long-ass post. I tried to make it all neat and tidy, but I realized after the first few paragraphs that that would make this a huge time sink. I've already spent a whole day writing this.

Addendum: To clarify, the anger I feel towards the transgender community is matched by the anger I feel towards myself for not being able to be on board with this whole thing. I do not hold anything against these people as people, I am only frustrated by how their ideas, which seem dumbfoundingly illogical to me, have become indisputable fact seemingly overnight.

Oooook ! Here's a tricky one. I'll try to make this as concise as I can but you have rather a lot of material here, so my response will be long in order to respond.
First, please understand that just because you are someone with an opposing view, this does not make you an "enemy" in any way. Just someone with a different view. I as a transgender and trans supportive person disagree with your view. That doesn't make you my enemy, and I hope, shouldn't necessitate me being yours.
I understand that if you are uncomfortable with being transphobic, you may tend to try and attribute it to something beyond your control, like your autism. As you said, to make you feel less guilty about holding this belief. That would be nice and simple, but I'm afraid it's not that easy. Autism does not = transphobia. If it did, logically someone like me could not exist, nor could the other transgender people on the spectrum. I also have virtually no empathy. I have had this extensively tested to make sure I was not a psychopath. No empathy also does not automatically = transphobia, sorry.
I'm afraid some of your post was nonsensical to me, but from what I can understand, you disagree with transsexuality because you perceive it as illogical. What is it, exactly, that you find illogical? If I understood that basic assumption a bit better I may be able to provide a more helpful response.
Here's some semantics - someone born with a penis is born with a male body. Someone with a vagina, a female body. That is biological sex. "Man" and "woman" are the social extensions that we have added to that basic sex. We call that gender. Sex and gender are different, but you can read about that extensively elsewhere and I'm not going to reiterate.
For most transgender people, the condition arises from having a brain opposed to your body. A transwoman is someone who has a male body, and a female brain. The most sensible theory I have read is this is exposure to a higher than normal sex hormones in utero, enough to influence the development of a foetus' brain, but not enough to turn it from female to male. Seem logical so far? This is a psychological dissonance between brain gender, and body sex. But to be honest, no one has an easy answer as to what causes transsexuality.
Believe me, the state of your body is rarely in dispute among transgender people. We know we were born with a physically male or female body. It is not a delusional belief that you do not, in fact, have a body gendered opposite to the way you feel in your mind. But "man," and "woman" are indeed an identity. Can you understand how it would be uncomfortable for someone with the mind of a woman, to be seen and treated like a man? Is it illogical for that person to seek to change that, so they can have a body they are comfortable with, and be treated in accordance with how they feel? This is true for transgender people. They're not "lying" about how they feel.
I understand that the genderqueer thing is confusing for many people. All I can tell you is many genderqueer people feel the same way that transmen and transwomen feel, except that their minds are not gendered. If the hormonal exposure in utero theory is correct, it is logical to assume a genderqueer person was exposed to equal amount of hormonal influence. I can also tell you that being genderqueer is about much more than pronouns. It is about identity, about how you understand your gender and psychology, and how you relate to your body, and socially to the world. Keep in mind many genderqueer people too transition, and are physically genderqueer in their bodies, to match their genderless minds. I myself don't mind which pronouns people use for me, or if they see me as a man, woman, neither, or both.
I don't understand why, just because you don't believe in transsexuality or support it, then you have to also be a neo nazi who denies the holocaust happened. Just because you may share one belief with this group - that you are both against transsexuality - does not mean you then have to agree with everything they say. Your "logic" is flawed.
And sure you can disagree. You're entitled to your opinion just as everyone is. A dispassionate transsexual is fully capable of engaging you in the subject respectfully, even if you disagree. Not every transgender person will demand you adhere to their opinion on this topic. Don't be afraid to be around transgender people just because of a difference in beliefs. You don't have to agree, but you are expected to be respectful. Calling a transman a girl, or using "she," will be likely to upset many people who have a strong sense of internal gender.
What do you consider "pushy"? Is it "pushy" to you for a transgender person to live his or her life as their internal gender, to have the right internal chemistry, to have correct meidcal treatment and the right to change their bodies, to look like and be treated as the man or woman they feel themselves to be? Of is it simply transgender people who insist you agree with them and refuse to allow you your own view that are "pushy"?
There may seem to be more transgender people now than there have been, but this is mainly due to acceptance and visibility, not due to actual increase. It's a bit like autism - some claim there is an autism "epidemic" due to the rising number of cases, without considering that more autistic people are just being recognised now and identifying with autism, instead of hiding and denying it.
Why on earth would using the word "queer" positively be "dangerous"?!
Why does anyone have to "win"? Why is it adversarial for you? Why can't you just have your opinion, and transgender people have their opinion, and you all get on with your lives? Why does there have to be a fight about who's "right" when this a matter of subjective, not objective, truth - why not have a discussion about those truths instead? Understand an opposing view better?
I think you need to ask yourself what is really behind this. If this hatred of transsexuality is influencing your opinions on other things you once believed as true, keeping you from things you enjoy, but can no longer believe or enjoy because they might just agree with transsexuality in some way, there is something else behind this than a simple difference of opinion. Why should you find it "troubling" that there is more of an instance of gender variance in the autistic population than in the neurotypical?
As to your last paragraph, it may be possible you just don't understand this topic enough, and that is why you are angry you can't get on board with it, and why the ideas threaten you so much. I can tell you as a transgender person who knows many others of older generations (70+ year olds) that this did not happen overnight. This has been around as long as people have been around (there are stories of transgender people being accepted in indigenous cultures, for example). Western culture is just catching up is all, and deciding that acceptance of diversity is best for everyone.
I hope this is a helpful response to you in some way. If you would like to discuss the topic respectfully, and get to now a bit more about it and challenge some of your beliefs, then please reply or PM me.

Why would I "fear" a transgendered person? It's their choice. They are not transgendered so that they can harm the "cis-gendered." They believe they were born the "wrong" gender, and want to do something about it.

If I felt gender dysphoria, I probably wouldn't want to go through the hassle. It's a very big hassle. I don't envy those who go through the hormones, surgeries, etc.

There are difficulties experienced which are not experienced by "cis-gendered" people. Complex difficulties. I feel bad that they have to experience these difficulties.

It's not very complex with me. As long as a transgendered person treats me right, it's cool with me.

Most people in the community seem to have an "us vs. them" mentality, but given that I've adopted the mentality, myself, it could be a chicken/egg thing. Do they seem combatant because I'm combatant, or am I combatant because they are?


This is very, very disappointing. I thought I had an out.


Yeah, I gave up on thinking about what I was writing a few paragraphs in, because the first couple took so long to write. I think this made the message even more antagonistic. I do appreciate your kindness in the face of my absurdity.


You are one of the good ones. I wish the majority of transgender people were like you, though I don't know whether or not you're actually transgender. I don't care what pronouns people use for me, either, but I've never actually had anyone use pronouns for me other than he/him or they/them. The closest I've gotten is when peers choose nicknames for me and then call me that, which has happened on a few occasions.


Oh, I didn't mean to say I am a Neo-Nazi. I'm actually an Ashkenazi Jew. (My relation to my actual religion is complicated.) What I meant to say is that before becoming a transphobe, I used to write off anyone with certain beliefs as "evil," meaning that I could ignore them and not listen to what they'd say. My reaction to someone denying the holocaust would be to send them an expletive-filled message and then block them. This whole thing changed my perspective, so now I actually hear them out and now I'm actually friends with a Neo-Nazi. We chat online, and I'm hoping to meet up with him the next time he's in my area.

See, I've taken a good, honest look at the arguments for holocaust denial, which I wouldn't have done if I hadn't become a transphobe. (Pre-transphobe me would've just written the deniers off as evil.) And I came, on my own, to the conclusion that the arguments used by holocaust deniers could be applied to any historical event, not just the holocaust. The reason they're singling out the holocaust is that so many countries have specifically outlawed denying that it happened. It's the Streissand effect. (And the fact that there are a lot of pre-existing conspiracy theories about Jewish control over the world doesn't hurt, either.)

Climate change denial isn't nearly as fringe as holocaust denial. In fact, in my country, the same political party denying that man-made climate change could lead to the apocalypse is the one opposed to transgender ideology. While I have a good enough understanding of record-keeping to could come to my own opinion on the holocaust, I don't understand science nearly well enough to come to my own opinion on climate change. And from what I've seen, a lot of liberals feel the same way. They accept that climate change is real, man-made, and an existential threat because that's what most scientists say. But since these scientists are also saying things I consider to be definitively wrong, I'm not placing my trust in them on this issue.


For someone who claims to have virtually no empathy, you sure are kinder than a lot of the supposedly empathetic people I've met.


Erm, how many genderqueer people have you met? There are quite a few people on my college campus. Most of them are biologically female and cut their hair short. I actually ask any girls I see with short hair for their preferred pronouns just to be on the safe side.

I read an article about a genderqueer person who transitioned, but I don't think that represents most of them. Are you getting most of this stuff online?

I suppose it is possible that some of them actually are transitioning, and I just don't have the eye to notice how their bodies have changed. That doesn't apply to the not-transitioned MtFs and FtMs, which leads me to..


And that does feel pushy for me.

If a transgender person puts effort into passing, it doesn't feel like I'm lying when I use their preferred pronouns. For example, despite my issues with her as a person, I always feel comfortable referring to Brianna Wu as she/her, as she looks and sounds like a woman, albeit one with an unconventionally shaped face. With Caitlyn Jenner.. I can do it when I look at a picture of her, but when she opens her mouth and lets out her masculine voice, I feel like I have to use he/him pronouns, and when I don't, I feel like I'm lying.

But there are still transgender people who are completely, 100% passing, with whom referring to them as their assigned gender feels more like a lie than referring to them as their chosen one.. and yet, they still manage to be pushy. Just take a look at Janet Mock's feud with Piers Morgan, and all the people who sided with Mock. (I wanted to put a link here, but it won't let me because I'm a new user.)

There's also ones who get upset when you imply that only women menstruate, for example.

And when it comes to using any pronouns other than he/him and she/her, I feel like I'm lying. I mean, I can force myself to say they/them around certain people, but xe/xer or anything of that ilk won't even come out of my mouth. I can't do it. I cringe just trying.


Because it conflates homosexuality, which I see as completely reasonable and understandable, with transgenderism, even though those are two totally different things. The only similarity they share is that angry people sometimes use the same slurs when attacking them, slurs like.. well, "queer." (Remember when that used to be a slur?)

I use the word "dangerous" in a hyperbolic sense. Things haven't gotten bad enough that I expect to be assaulted for expressing my beliefs, though they could certainly get that bad eventually. I just mean that people who use "queer" as an umbrella term are using cognitive dissonance to forget that being transgender has nothing to do with being gay.


I've put a ton of effort into trying to understand this idea and I don't think I ever will. I'm probably just going to live my life feeling the same way other people who lost culture wars feel. I came here hoping that maybe other people with my same diagnosis were having this issue, but I guess not.

So once again, I have no idea how the heck having Asperger's actually impacts me. That's not really a problem, except that I thought it could've been used to help relieve me of my guilt, and that didn't really pan out.

Mod: transphobia is normally against WrongPlanet rules and grounds for locking a thread. However, as the OP has made a conscious effort to be respectful and ask a genuine intellectual question, this thread will stand for now. However, it does not belong in the LGBT section, so I have moved it to PPR, WrongPlanet's "controversial" forum

^ That's kind, I got a 2 year stretch the WP Gulag labour camp for applying logic to gender dysphoria. I'm still not accustomed to room temperature and eating three meals a day.

Some questions:

You were being too literal. The phrases are literally compatible but are contradictory rhetorical points. "Black lives matter" means "black lives should matter but aren't currently valued properly", it's a call for change and an attempt to convince. "All lives matter" is generally a statement of fact that the speaker believes is already the case.


Even if we ignore the trans issue, this is wrong. Being a man or woman is an identity, just as being autistic is an identity. You may believe it is backed up by a biological truth, but it is still an identity.

Furthermore, not all people with penises are men. Some of them are boys. One is not born but becomes etc.


I'd argue that isn't a perfect definition of African-American. If Obama moves to Canada, does he stop being African-American? Or what if Kevin Pietersen moves to America?

Anyway, words can have more than one definition. For example, "man" can be a male human, or the whole of humanity, or an authority figure. Why not also accept that it can mean a person who identifies as a man, or who other people perceive as a man?


I have read your paragraph about wanting to change sex so take that as read.

Why is being gay "logical", but not being transgender? I'm really struggling to follow that.



Gender isn't a synonym for sex, although it may be used that way casually. Biologists will laugh if you ask them what gender a swan is, for example. Sex is a biological phenomenon. Your sex cannot be changed.

Gender is a psycho-sociological phenomenon. It relates to how your sex is perceived by yourself and others. Although things like gender roles are constructed, most people have a strong innate idea of what their gender is.


Do you have any evidence for these things being made up?

They're not "trans" conditions. In many ways they are incompatible with being trans, because many people with these identities simply don't have a strong sense of gender (while trans people have a very strong sense of gender).


This is completely illogical!

First up, climate scientists rarely give authoritative declarations about gender. Experts in gender dysphoria have little to say about the climate. These are different scientists.

I understand climate science. Global warming is happening. Using your logic, I should disregard everything you say about gender because you are wrong about climate science. This is obviously fallacious.

The only reason you have to believe in electrons is the scientific consensus. Are you going to stop believing in electrons?


Again, I'm not sure what makes DDLG "logical" and transgenderism "illogical".


Well, one solution would be to just keep your views to yourself.

More "dangerous" than someone who uses it as a slur?

It seems like a fairly decent shorthand for a distinct group of oppressed identities (sexuality, gender, and romantic orientation minorities, or SGRM).

Firstly, what is your source?

Secondly, how do you know that this is not simply a result of people being openly trans?



Abed seems very accepting of difference, accepting both the show's major LGBTQ+ characters. I doubt he would be transphobic. He'd just compare them to a high-profile fictional trans person like Sophia Burset or Tony Sawicki or Missy.

I don't know enough about Sheldon, I don't remember how he's reacted to people he doesn't understand. He's pretty scientific though so he'd probably accept the facts on the ground.

I don't think your transphobia is a result of you being more logical than anyone else. I think it is the result of you rejecting the evidence that agender/genderfluid/etc. people exist because you couldn't quite wrap your head around it, and then backtracking from there to deciding that gender and sex are the same thing, and then having a serious case of confirmation bias. I think we all do this all the time. When it happens, hopefully we eventually see that we were wrong, get a bit embarrassed, own up to our mistake, and try to move on.

Is it really "transphobic" to not equivilate transgenderism with homosexuals? Is it "transphobic" to think transgenderism is a mental illness? I feel like the backlash against that stigmatizes mental illness and isn't based in any reality other than people's hurt feelings, if you need hormones and radical surgeries then it is most definitely is an illness. Homosexuals were persecuted and didn't need anything other than acceptance so I don't see how you can simultaneously medicalize something while trying paint it simply as "difference". I don't think transgendered people should be discriminated against, I think they should receive health care, I don't really care too much about what bathroom they use, I don't think their lives have any less value than anyone elses. Now I do not believe that SRS is good medicine, I think it violates a doctors oath to do no harm and see it more as a mutilation. Adults can I guess make their own decisions when it comes to body modification and lifestyle but I don't believe in giving it medical legitimacy, there is also the question of protecting somebody from themselves as there are people out that want doctors to amputate healthy legs or whatever and I don't believe accommodating that delusion. I think it's an issue totally blown out of proportion, transgenderism I feel like is given so much attention because it is fetishized as opposed to much prevalent mental illnesses which receive no where near same amount of attention or peer support.

I apologize that offends anyone, it is just my opinion. I suppose I am, I guess, as harsh in my views towards autism and the "neurodiversity movement" so don't think I have any particular prejudice towards transgendered as it simply consistent with my views. I believe promoting an identity movement moves attention away from those actually debilitated and in need of assistance, I feel like it's just virtue signalling for a lot of so called allies whose advocacy just amounts to hollow displays on social media and histrionics towards perceived enemies. It's not something I obsess over or think too much about however, I don't think it really effects me terribly. If somebody disagrees with me then that's fine, lets just try to keep things cordial as dialogue is GOOD thing! Is there a rational logical argument against what I've said or am I just a terrible awful cis-scum ****lord? Once again, I am apologizing in advance so don't banish me!

I'm not transgender. I don't recognise the "transgender community" as being representative of transgender people and am therefore not an "ally". I'm unconvinced by your claim of "Transphobia" and the strongest trigger I have is my distaste for bastardisation of the English language.

So let's get stuck in!



I only know what it means to have Asperger's as far as I myself am concerned, though there are definitely near-universal commonalities. Mostly it involved years of understanding that others didn't perceive the world as I did, but not why, and trying to muddle together strategies for overcoming my deficiencies - at least, prior to diagnosis.



The internet also provides a filter between oneself and other people, especially true of forums and chat/messenger apps.



This (and the part I cut) I can relate to, though not necessarily completely.



And this part even more so. I used to strive to fit in and pursued the company of people, despite finding it incredibly draining to do so. Human social interaction is too chaotic to form consistent rules for, and so it was a perpetual learning experience with many, many missteps on my part.



You've done fine up to now!



It certainly is a common autistic trait, though I've come to believe that it's not as clear-cut as "lacking empathy". I've done some acting in my time, and I find it easy to simulate emotions in the context of e.g. a play. However, I find it virtually impossible to fake most emotions in a social setting, face to face. Sympathy can come across as patronising and insulting coming from me, no matter my sincerity. I don't think I'm less empathetic than others so much as I'm not great at expressing the expected body language and tone. That's not to say that 'neurotypicals' are necessarily faking it, though.



It seems to me that this thread is serving more than one purpose and therefore has more than one point.



You're going to have to define what you mean by "transphobia" in this case.



And this is why. I agree that the transgender question has not been answered and is open to debate. I also agree that the ideology promoted by the "transgender community" is precisely that, an ideology:

"A systematic scheme of ideas, usually relating to politics, economics, or society and forming the basis of action or policy; a set of beliefs governing conduct. Also: the forming or holding of such a scheme of ideas."



Well, residents/citizens. It's certainly a clumsy term. Biologically speaking, you're right on the money regarding men and women (with a nod to Walrus' pedantry regarding "boy" and "girl" ). Psychologically, however, there is a (relatively new [1945-ish?]) argument that "man" and "woman" are identities, though this was, of course, not originally intended to apply to transgender people. But I digress. That line of discourse could very easily unleash a plague of hornets upon this thread.



I don't mind that people want to form communities for whatever purpose they see fit, be that political or otherwise. Nor do I have a problem with illogical names (beyond the normal niggling distaste of disharmony). Where I find fault is when such groups presume to speak on behalf of everyone who qualifies to be a member, harangues and condemns those who speak out of turn - e.g. Milo Yiannopoulos being called a "gay uncle Tom".



Aye. I consider it to be a case of the ends justifying the means, despite my own reservations. It's entirely possible to disagree with someone without judging them. I've had some very candid conversations with transgender people about this exact subject, though their views are, naturally, representative only of their own experiences.



This one confuses me too. Some aspects of that aforementioned ideology appear to be contradictory, with no obvious means of resolution.



The problem stems from gender having duality of meaning within the sciences. Biology defines genders based on chromosomes, not social function. Psychology deals with gender in terms of social function, not chromosomes. When we classify people we're typically doing so based on their biological gender rather than their social function e.g. being a stay-at-home parent doesn't mean a man becomes a woman (a clumsy example, but it serves).

Oh, and there certainly isn't a scientific consensus where gender identity is concerned. That said, even if you take the view that transgender is entirely a neurological disorder, reasonable accommodations would be, in my opinion, a requirement under law.



I don't believe you've demonstrated "transphobia". Nor do I condemn your freedom to associate with whomever you choose. I disagree, though, that you are obliged to befriend extremists due to misguided principles. Friendship should not be based on political discord or concordance, rather it should be based on mutual trust and respect.



I think that your problem is far too nuanced to answer with a simple "it's you" or "it's them". You've described what I would call anxiety associated with transgender people - albeit of a certain political bent - which could stem from any of a number of sources, including being a simple extension of your dismay over losing a friend. Honestly, my advice is to consider speaking to a counsellor of some description and try to get to the root of it. You'll certainly find opinions a-plenty here, but I doubt you'll find a solution - though it may certainly prove cathartic.



Your opinion doesn't exactly align with my own, though I am certainly sympathetic to it. I'd like to know why you find it "troubling" that people here are transgender. The support point I understand, but you'll have to come to terms with the fact that autistic folks are as politically diverse as everyone else.



It was an interesting read. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.



It's clear that you view the transgender community as being a specific political entity, that you don't have an issue with anyone individually by nature of them being transgender. If this thread is to remain civil and productive, I firmly suggest that anyone responding keeps that at the forefront of their mind.

Maybe you're a self-hating trans person?

Pretty normal to hate being different.

Warning - wall of text ahead! Novel! I blame you all for being too interesting.

True, though autistics may be less inclined to this "grouping" and thus, a more sensible discussion may be possible. Anyway, just because someone comes at you with this attitude, doesn't mean you have to respond in kind.

I am indeed socially, legally, hormonally, psychologically and surgically transgender, and genderqueer. Basically everything you have a problem with Keep in mind though, my ease with whatever pronouns people want to use for me is likely because I am genderqueer, and thus, all binary pronouns are equally as true and untrue for me. For a binary person, someone who believes themselves strongly male or female, "passing" as that gender is much more important to them and thus, the pronoun usage will follow. Such people can be quite hurt by "misgendering" I am told.

You know, in a mind-bending sort of what this may be partially a good thing. Not that I'm supporting transphobia of course, but having an unpopular view yourself has opened you up to being more open minded about others' unorthodox views. Still, doesn't necessitate that you need to be transphobic to be open minded in future. Just take that element of openness and couple more acceptance with it?

Ironically enough, this may be because real people have feelings - feelings your views possibly hurt. I'm an alexithymic - for me, kindness is an ethical principle, not an emotional response, thus I am sometimes better at applying it uniformly, because I don't feel it, just believe in it. I prefer discussion of ideas to emotionality. If you received hostile responses from normal people, it was likely due to your point of view triggering their emotional defences.

Quite a few - I used to be part of a support group when I lived in the city. I tend to stay away from forming opinions on topics like this based exclusively on the internet, as we all know, it can be crazy misrepresentative of real life. So no, my perspective comes from real life, not from reading things online. All of the participants in the support group were genderqueer in some way, and most of them were also in some form of medical transition. I'm not sure what that says about the belief that genderqueer people do not medically transition - it may be a myth. Almost all the genderqueer people I knew were also trans.
Just an aside - atypical female presentation doesn't necessarily equal atypical gender orientation. Are you sure these girls were genderqueer, or just preferred a butch look? It's definitely difficult and it was a difficulty I had myself when I began transition - accepting other genderqueer people who do not transition and present as entirely binary as "trans enough," just because I tend to be an extremist and am actively transgender.

I think this may be partially due to your own conditioning - men have deep voices, women have high ones, etc. That conditioning may make it difficult for you to associate someone with a deep voice as feminine, and make you feel as if you're being untruthful to identify them as such. I can see the conundrum in that. But have you ever met a cis woman with a lower voice than you? Or a man with a high voice? Is it still uncomfortable to refer to them by the correct gender? Just curious how you could go about thinking this through and challenging it, were you so inclined.
I'm not aware of any of the online feuds, as I don't see the point in that kind of interaction, but I may add the alternative that only people with biologically female bodiesmenstruate. A preoperative transman can still menstruate and identify in his mind as a man (which is in most cases very distressing for the person). I get all sorts of pronouns - he, she, "sh!t sorry," "this person," etc. I also get "sir," and "ladies" inclusive of me when I'm with women. It'd be interesting to see where your sense of truth would fall with an androgynous person, actually. I know some genderqueer people insist on neutrals, like "they" (which I will use if asked) but I've never actually encountered a real person who used xe/xer. I don't stipulate - people are free to call me as they see me.

I'm curious as to why you see such a difference between gay and trans? Homophobes, for example, may argue that gay people are mentally ill, because men are supposed to be attracted to women because that's the way babies are born, and anything else is sick. As far as I can understand. They're under the same "umbrella" because of oppression aimed at them, and because they are alternatives to the mainstream cis gender heteronormative culture. So no they're not the same thing, but they do relate in certain ways.
I also don't believe you have to be afraid of someone hurting you for your ideas because they use the word "queer" positively. I use all those words positively, myself - queer, tranny, dyke, fag, etc and don't mind at all when people use them on me. I use "queer" because as a genderqueer person, I can't actually use "gay" or "straight" to refer accurately to my sexuality, because I'm not physically or psychologically a man or a woman. Had you encountered that explanation before? I'd certainly never attack or abuse someone because they disagreed with my views on sexuality and gender.

Ah, but this is a very interesting area of what is classified as a mental illness. See, the medical profession mainly agrees with you - in order to have access to sometimes life saving surgery, a transgender person must first accept a "diagnosis" of the "mental illness" Gender Dysphoria.
Now, this mental illness is, in most people, entirely remedied by physical means. And you can't cure a mental illness with a physical intervention. And consider the attitudes aimed at people who undergo voluntary cosmetic surgery - breast implants, pec implants, calf implants, heavy liposuction, nose jobs, etc. This isn't regarded as a "mental illness" requiring a "diagnosis" when in many ways, it is the same amount of intervention as many transgender surgeries. Trans surgeries are only labeled "radical" because people decide they are. The actual amount of surgical alteration some areas of SRS is no greater than in cosmetic surgery. I myself don't believe being trans is a mental illness, nor should transfolk be forced to accept a mental illness diagnosis in order to alter their bodies.
And I don't think it's transphobic to see homosexuality and transsexuali as separate - because they are. But I mentioned that in a point above.
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Believe me, there is an extensive process to go through to make sure this is the best course of action. Anyone seeking medical transition is extensively psychoanalysed, and in many areas, must live as their preferred gender for 12 months to make sure this is right. Any kind of possible alternative problem - such as a legitimate mental illness - is discounted before that person can receive treatment. And considering the Hippocratic oath - many transgender people die if they don't receive treatment. Which one causes less harm? You're welcome to consider it a mutilation the same way some people believe tattoos, piercings, haircuts and plastic surgery are mutilations. But from a doctor's perspective, they must do what is best for that patient. As a post-op and happily mutilated transsexual myself, I can tell you honestly which one was best for me. Is transsexuality a delusion? Maybe. But maybe heterosexuality and cis gender identity are delusions, too. Just because something is different, doesn't make it an illness.
.
I actually agree with you there. Fetishisation of trans people is a problem for most transgender people. They don't like or ask for it.
I also cringe when I see exposure of trans topics, putting this in the spotlight, because from my own perspective, I am not doing this for attention. I'm doing it because I have to, to be comfortable. That is no one else's business. I'll generally restrict myself to answering practical questions for others who need the information because they are transitioning themselves, or providing perspective to others who ask respectfully. I'm not a crusader - there are plenty of things that need more attention than transsexuality.

Wow, who have you been talking to that have you that attitude? I agree that dialogue is a good thing, so long as everyone stays on task and doesn't get nasty. I lose all interest in emotional flame wars. You're not doing that - you're just saying your piece and good on you!

Agreed, though I think it's easy to trip up here and forget that your opinion and experience isn't everyone's. Maybe moreso for autistics.
Mods - please don't lock ! It's am interesting topic.

I was not prepared for this level of response. I apologize in advance if I move too slowly or overlook some things. Also, there's going to be plenty of formatting errors, so don't bother keeping track of them.

I find it troubling that you'd lock a thread for transphobia, but I'm also grateful that you decided not to lock this one, so thank you.


Hah.


I've heard this argument before, but if the context of the phrase already establishes that we're talking about police brutality, why does it matter which phrase we're using? It reminds me of the South Park episode where two atheist factions go to war over what to name their faction.


Huh, that's actually a good point.

What I mean to say is that your status as being a man or a woman is only really relevant in regards to what role you play in the baby-making process and what kind of person would be interested in having intercourse with you.


Okay, that's technically tru-


It's times like these I wish the trollface hadn't stopped being socially acceptable, because it illustrates how I'm imagining you felt while writing that sentence.


That's also a really good point.

However, can the term "male" refer, exclusively, to those with penises and Y chromosomes? Miriam-Webster still defines the term as "an adult man," and "man," as we've established, is a gender, and therefore has nothing to do with chromosomes or genitalia.


I am attracted to girls. When I think about girls, I get a feeling. I know that gay men get that same feeling when they think about other men. So to know how it feels to be gay, I just have to remember how I feel about women. Same feeling, different stimuli.

Transgenderism.. I don't know how that feels. I can imagine it to an extent, as I've explained, but only when there's dysphoria involved, the kind that makes you have to change your appearance so you're not overwhelmed by stress. If there's no dysphoria involved, then I think, "why the heck would this person identify as anything other than the gender they were assigned as?!"


http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?all ... rch=gender

"As sex (n.) took on erotic qualities in 20c., gender came to be the usual English word for "sex of a human being," in which use it was at first regarded as colloquial or humorous. Later often in feminist writing with reference to social attributes as much as biological qualities; this sense first attested 1963."

I guess I can accept that the new definition is the one that is sticking, but if that's what gender means, why have gender at all? It sounds like instead of being synonymous with "sex," the term "gender" is now synonymous with "gender roles."


I think I'm actually getting somewhere. I think this might be the crux of my issue. I cannot imagine what it must be like to have an innate sense of gender. I cannot empathize with anyone who has one because I do not have one, and I can't logic my way through it (like I do with dysphoria) because it isn't logical, but emotional.

Is it known why people have an innate sense of gender, if it's socially constructed?


They're made up because they're social constructs. Social constructs are made up. All of the things I named have no basis in biology.


I consider them to be trans conditions because they are the most egrigious example of the same illogical premise that leads to non-dysphoric transgender people.

But hey, if you agree they're not trans, maybe we can also agree that being gay isn't being trans, and work together to #DropTheT.

(That was a hashtag campaign that failed for reasons beyond my comprehension.)


What? Then why are they using ANY alternative identities? Why do they feel the need to?


Well, crap. I've been BTFO'd.

Still, I think questioning the narrative on climate change is.. I mean, it's not popular, but it's not totally, completely unpopular. I'm just gonna be a neutral party on this. Is there a term for that? A climate change agnostic? A climate change apathist?


I consider fetishes logical because I can explain it in a way I understand. People have physical reactions to certain stimuli. If you're lucky, the only stimuli you'll need will be a human body. If you're unlucky, you'll need other stimuli. The stranger your stimuli is, the more shameful your fetish is. I'm fine with DDLG so long as no real children are actually involved and it's all just roleplay.


That would be the logical thing to do, but I don't do it. And that's how you know I'm a hypocrite.

Before this, I had all the socially acceptable views on everything, practically by default. (Gay rights is an exception, as I cared about that back when acknowledging the existence of homosexuals was a controversial act.) I'm not used to the idea of witholding information. I've been an open book pretty much my entire life. Like, if I talk to someone for five hours, I'll probably trust them enough to tell them absolutely anything.



Hyperbole. I mean that their ideology causes me great discomfort.


We might as well throw Muslims and African-Americas in there too, since both of those things are as related to being transgender as being transgender is to being gay!


Well, uhh.. I figured that would work as anecdotal evidence?


If their pronouns are the same as the ones that were used to describe them at birth, then they're not doing the one thing that connects all transgender (this definition includes non-binary/genderqueer/etc) people. Are you saying they'd been secretly holding the desire to use different pronouns, and not acting on it?

I expect you to call me out on choosing pronouns as an arbitrary thing to deny transness on, but since my definition of transness includes a ton of things you don't consider to be trans, it's logically consistent, I think. Feel free to point out an inconsistency, though.


This is the first thing you've said that has irritated me, but I suppose that's my problem and not yours. Being transgender has nothing to do with being gay. LGBTQ+ is a confounding acronym. So, for the purpose of this discussion, I'm replacing "LGBTQ+" with "transgender."

There are no transgender main characters, unless we count everyone who attended Greendale's "Tranny Dance" as transgender. The closest we've gotten to a transgender character is in Britta's fantasy in the series finale, where she imagined Dean Craig Pelton coming out as transgender.


There is one part of this claim I can confirm is false.


I believed that gender and sex were the same thing for most of my life for the same reason that most Americans (I assume? I mean, it's anecodtal) still don't know that they're not the same thing: we use "sex" and "gender" interchangeably in casual conversation. Or at least cisgender people do.

The rest of your message might be accurate, but I won't be able to tell unless I get over this eventually and then have the benefit of hindsight.

I feel uncomfortable with the notion that I think I'm more logical than other people, since I know for a fact that I'm less intelligent than many of the people around me (certainly anyone working in scientific fields), but at the same time, I suppose I did say I'm more logical than other people, or at least imply it. I suppose that since smart people are still human like the rest of us, they could all be practicing a form of cognitive dissonance that I somehow managed not to be persuaded into practicing.


Hehe. I am self-hating, but I'm most definitely not transgender. Transgender people are accepted and accomodated for in my environment, so if I was transgender, I'd have no reason not to come out.

I know there's more stuff I have to respond to, but I've been typing for awhile and I'm getting tired. Is it okay if I come back later?

Nothing wrong with disagreeing with something.

Nothing wrong with people disagreeing with what you disagree with.

What is wrong is censoring either of those viewpoints (depending on current fads, one, the other or both might be the "right" or "wrong" viewpoint).

I don't understand what you mean. What does "trans" mean in this context? I see queerness is a type of transness. Are you saying that almost all the genderqueer people you knew were also in the process of transitioning? (Even people who haven't transitioned are generally considered trans if they identity as a gender other than the one they were assigned at birth.)


I've made it a habit of asking any girl I see with short hair at my university for their preferred pronouns—that is, if I have to talk to them.


I've haven't met a cis woman with a lower voice than me since I hit puberty, but I've met quite a few men with higher voices than me. It doesn't feel untruthful if I can tell that they're men. See, I'm not trying to say that having a deep voice is the sole defining characteristic of a sex or gender. I'm saying that a deep voice is what breaks the illusion that Caitlyn Jenner is a woman. (And, as cool a person as she is, I do see Caitlyn Jenner's womanhood as an illusion.)


It enters the realm of transphobia when I call out people for talking about LGBTQAI+ and the queer community, or even just feel the urge to.

You're a cool person, by the way. Sorry if I seem negative.

Jacoby seems to be on the same side as me (the side that John Oliver thinks has pre-emptively lost the fight and should give up because they're Nazis and stuff), but I'm assuming he hadn't been so open about it on site before I made this topic.

You can understand homosexuality because you can imagine being attracted to the same sex. OK. And you can imagine being trans because you can imagine waking up as a woman and feeling uncomfortable. But you're struggling with some of the wider ideas. Have I got that right?

We had a user on here a few years ago (I think it was one of "the cat users", who older users may remember) who identified as agender or non-binary or some such. I remember a lot of things this user used to say, they regularly made lucid points about a variety of issues particularly wrt. autism politics. Unfortunately I can't remember their username or even their pronouns but I'm 60% sure they used male pronouns and were AMAB. It wasn't a big thing for them either way.

But he - Callista! I think it was Callista! - said that he couldn't identify with trans issues at all because he didn't identify with either gender. Waking up a woman would be no different for him than waking up a man. As a cis man, waking up a woman would feel wrong to me, but not to Callista. It was analogous to being asexual i.e. experiencing sexual attraction to no-one, or atheist, believing in no gods. There's that famous "I just believe in one god less than you" quote, well Callista has one gender less than you.

Similarly, can you accept the idea of being bisexual - attracted to both sexes? Can you then make the leap to identifying with both sexes?

There's still dysphoria, but it is more nuanced and perhaps not traumatising. They broadly belong under the trans umbrella, but they are not strictly trans.

As for gender being socially constructed - the consensus these days seems to be that gender is real, but gender roles are not. I guess another way of putting that, if you don't feel there's a distinction between gender and gender roles, is that "perception of sex" is real and separate to actual sex or actual gender.

I'm by no means an expert on any of this. I don't keep abreast of research into gender or even (for want of a better word) genderqueer writing. But at this point, I've been proven wrong so many times that my default stance on cases like this (when the only evidence is what people self-report) is to believe people unless I have good reason not to. I can think they are being silly if they really seem incredible (e.g. alternative genders like "pizza-gender" - note that I just made that example up), but even then I'm in favour of scientific study and prepared to be proven wrong.

Equally, if you're prepared to be proven wrong more often (or trust your judgement really well), scepticism of things like "genderfluid" and wanting to see evidence first seems fairly sensible. But don't just declare that you don't understand them - look them up and see what the lay-evidence is! For example, the Guardian did a survey of gender identities earlier in the year and many comments from gender-fluid people were published. Give that a read and see if it "makes sense".

Now, miscellaneous points:

"Black lives matter" suggests that black people are currently getting unfair treatment at the hands of the police. "All lives matter" suggests that police brutality is wrong, but doesn't identify the largest problem.

If your house was burning down and you called the fire department, presumably you'd want them to focus on pouring water on your house, rather than soaking every house in the street because all houses matter?


I think it's worth acknowledging that all the letters of the acronym have different experiences and needs and that they may sometimes work in opposition, but politically their causes have often been woven tightly together, and "gay culture" has usually been seen as a safe space for all sorts of SGRMs. It's a bit like how all different non-white races might work together in America to combat white supremacy, even though the issues they encounter are very different.

Not really. I don't think a person can know, anecdotally, whether there are more or fewer trans people than there were a decade ago. For one, they're pretty rare, and we're bad at judging small numbers. Also, ten years ago you and I were 11. Personally, I was much less aware of trans issues, and so wouldn't have noticed. Most of the people we knew, presumably, were about 11; many people don't "come out" until much later in life, so it's not surprising that we notice more trans people on our campuses than we did in school. And of course, schools are smaller than universities, so we encounter more people...

I think lots of "trans" people, using your definition, are quite happy to use the pronouns that go with their birth gender.

Think of it like homosexuality. Perhaps a man takes a wife and has sex with her because society does not allow him to be his true self, so he hides it. That doesn't stop him being gay. Similarly, a trans person who is afraid that they will be mocked/made homeless/fired/lynched (delete as appropriate) may live their whole life as their assigned gender. Caitlyn Jenner was still trans when she was living as Bruce, Laura Jane Grace (suggest listening to Against Me!'s last album regardless of whether you want to know about dysphoria just because it is great) was still trans when she was going by Tom.

So trans acceptance might not make people "become trans" - it just makes them comfortable telling other people that they are trans.

Well, I can imagine the former much better. See, I can empathize with homosexuality, because I can imagine how it feels. I can sympathize with dysphoria because it does sound bad on paper, just like anorexia. Anything that compels you to do harm to yourself is bad. But if I were to wake up as a woman, I'd be totally cool with it, and I can't imagine why I wouldn't be unless I suddenly feel like my body is one giant phantom limb, which is what I believe happens to people with dysphoria.

This is kind of tangential, but sometimes I wonder if women really do have an easier time dating, or if it's just a "grass is always greener on the other side" sort of thing. If it's the former, then being a women would be a good thing for me, assuming I don't get that phantom limb/dysphoria/OH GOD MY BODY stuff. So I'd be more than cool with it, I'd be glad! (Transwomen have the hardest time dating of all, though, so this is also assuming I'd wake up as a cisgender woman, despite.. having previously been male.)


Pretty much.



Yeah, I feel the exact same way as Callista.


Me and Callista have the same gender. The difference is that Callista thinks that's significant, and I don't. I'm a man, I have a male body, whatever.


I can imagine feeling as though you have a body you don't actually have and suffering a large amount of stress as a result. I'm not sure what bigender/genderqueer people would do to alleviate this matter, and genderfluid people can't really do anything because the thing they want to be keeps changing. Do genderfluid people even have dysphoria? Do they do anything to their bodies?



Oh.

..well, if it's not traumatizing, then how does it affect them, and why the heck should I care about it?



So gender isn't a social construct?


..so what's gender? I'm not sure everyone in this thread is on the same page and has the same knowledge, which does make the discussion more interesting, but is kind of inconvenient, too.


Fair enough! *thumbs up*


I haven't found any non-anecdotal evidence about it. The only scientific research I've found has been on MtFs and FtMs.


I can't link anything because I'm a new user. You're a mod, though. Can you link me this article?




I've heard this metaphor before, and it has never made sense to me. It suggests that only black people are victims of police brutality. It's an issue that affects all of us.


Non-white races all face, essentially, the same issue, that being racism/prejudice. SGRMS all face the same issue, that being.. people who don't approve of their lifestyle. Should all people with lifestyles that aren't completely approved join SGRMS? Would fetishes fit in there?


Perhaps where you are. I met six of them during my first year, and my school has less than 20,000 students. So they have 1 for every 3,000 students, assuming there aren't any I haven't met.


There were also some transgender people in my high school, though not until my junior year. I guess you're right about them coming out later in life.

Did you encounter more transgender people when you got to college?

I'd be interested in knowing whether there are more transgender people on campuses today than there were on campuses a decade ago. I haven't found any data on that. Google just turns up articles explaining why there isn't data on it.


This reminds me of when people talk about whether homosexuality is a choice or not. Homosexuality is not a choice if we're defining it by the mere desire to sleep with people of the same sex, since you can't choose what you desire. However, homosexuality is most definitely a choice if we're defining it by whether people do go out and sleep with people of the same sex, since you can choose whether or not you act on those desires.

So does the desire to live as a gender different from the one you were assigned as make you transgender, or is it the act of actually doing it?

This also came up on another site. Someone said that being a vegetarian is a choice, while being gay isn't, and they didn't try to explain why. They pretty much said "just 'cause." I like that you guys don't do that here.