Cuba: Maybe We Should Give Them a Chance

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I don't. Interventions can be handled by NGOs.

The problem with government interventions is that inevitably, ideology comes into play. We are the most powerful nation in the world. What's to keep us from bombing the crap out of everyone we don't like? (Mexico, Cuba, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Iraq again...)

There's a difference between sending a soldier to a UN peacekeeping force and forcibly invading a nation. It is possible to be a successful, moral nation (Pick a Scandinavian) without strong interventionist or militaristic tendencies.

That's all I got. I just rolled out of bed and my head's still foggy as hell, so forgive me if that's incoherent.

Why should it be significant anyway to contribute something to the global economy? ^^ Its not about evading, but before answering a question, it would be interesting to know whats the meaning of the question, so you can answer it. ^^

I was wondering, that US people are not allowed by their government to travel to Cuba. For europe its a normal holiday destination for a long time. Friends already went there, the only misadvantage they recognized, were that they are at some places a bit picky with photographs. So noone was rude, but they made some pictures in the city, and one of the buildings they had on the photographs background was an office building of the government, and they were advised to avoid to photograph official buildings. But else it should have been very nice, specially if you like old architecture. So you dont find there much hipster stuff, if you need such stuff for holidays, but compared to other cities they visited on their trip (Dominican republic, ....) it seems to be very safe. So in each city they stopped, you get advised by hotels..., which areas or behaviour you should avoid. Compared with the safety and security issues they were advised in other cities, they dont seem to have much troubles with crimes against tourists.

Don't give them a chance. I want to see how long they can keep those antique cars running.

They have Chinese buses there now. Government cars tend to be Ladas. There are also other Asian cars. The old American cars are private cars usually.

If you're talking about the USSR's invasion of Afghanistan the Afghans would have fought them with or without our support.
But there wouldn't have been just mere support in the case of Cuba. In 1959 we would have put enough American troops on the ground in Cuba to make that island sink another 2 ft. into the ocean because more than anything I'd want to make an example. It would not have been done gently and it wold have set the tone for US policy on Communism for the next 30+ years.

What an invasion would have done is turn Cubans, communist or otherwise, into an underground insurgency. Castro's people won because they were skilled guerilleros, good at using the terrain to defeat superior forces. Don't forget that Batista was largely an American puppet, who had American support, and still lost. It was the slash and burn policies of American corporations that turned the Cuban people to Castro. Tell me, by occupying it and turning it into a police state/slaughterhouse, what effect do you think that would have on the hearts and minds of the Cuban people? How did that work in Vietnam? How did that work in Afghanistan and Iraq? How did that work in Mogadishu, or Vera Cruz?

Also, considering the close ties between the USSR and Cuba, how do you think Moscow would have reacted? Essentially, you would see the Cold War turn very, very hot indeed.

This is the problem with you hardcore Republican types. Ideology is everything. Communism vs. Capitalism. Let me tell you, there isn't and never has been a truly Capitalist or truly Communist nation. All there is is more and less $#&*ed up nations. Know when a nation starts to go down hill? When ideology trumps practicality, when armchair generalissimos like yourself trump statesmen, when sanity gives way to not even madness, but pure stupidity.

I would have removed the root cause of the revolution AFTER seizing control of the country. Lock everything down then do the "hearts and minds" thing with the people. They'd still get a better deal than either Castro or Batista.


That would be the primary objective if I didn't state it clearly enough before; Deny Cuba's entry into the Communist side of the world in the first place and let Moscow now that we mean business.


Yes, we really are quite horrible aren't we.


I get the feeling you'd prefer communism over the two.
BTW, if Casto's Cuba is so wonderful and America is so horrible why have there been so many Cuban's escape to the US since 1959 and not American's escaping this capitalist hellhole for the worker's paradise of Cuba?

What if the majority of Cubans WANTED communism?

Aren't you a democrat?

Fine, if they can get the Russian Navy to tow Cuba into Soviet waters and anchor it.
Otherwise it aint happenin' on this side of the world.


No, I vote Republican.

The USA thinks it has a right to decide the ruling governments of other sovereign nations and it wonders why it is despised.

Its like debating with Stan Smith from 'American Dad'.

Again, that strategy has worked great in Iraq and A-stan. Americans still fighting and dying, and a still strong insurgency? Massive costs and no foreseeable exit in sight? Details!

Every time. Every single damn time America has meddled in the politics of other nations, it's gone horribly awry. The current situation in Iran, for example. Guatemala. Libya. Egypt. Every time we do something nasty rather than letting them work it out themselves, we create a time bomb that our kids are gonna have to deal with.



It would put Russian boots on the ground in Cuba. It would mean millions dying for a stupid, unavoidable war, because we couldn't let the Cubans decide what they wanted. It might even have meant nuclear war. Are you willing to risk the lives of millions to satisfy your machismo?



Again, it's not so simple. America is not horrible. America's a wonderful country, and we live well. That's great. Cuba is not perfect. My only argument was that I wanted to go see for myself, and make up my own mind. If the Cubans want to come here, they can. If they want to stay, they can do that too. Leave it to Cubans to pass judgment on Cuba.

It's impossible to form a real opinion on what Cuba could be, because we have been interfering like crazy. We deny them a market for their goods, and a source of imports. We refuse to allow Americans, bringing modern ideas, into to travel to the country. Not Cuba. Us. We're the only ones holding us back.

As far as communism, there is not preference. You simply can not break politics down into an either-or situation. A country must be able to adopt some policies in certain situations, and other policies in different ones. Communist philosophy contains some good ideas, and many bad ones. Capitalist philosophy contains some good ideas, and many bad ones. Both, when taken to their extremes, are horribly destructive. And it is not up to us to decide what blend is right for a certain country. Plant a seed in every country. In some, it'll grow, but scraggly and weak. In others, it'll thrive. In others, it won't grow. One nation may make a political idea work brilliantly. In another, it might have the opposite effect. It is cheaper, more peaceful, and and wins more good favor to worry about governing our own country, and letting everyone else worry about their's.

If you call that Communism, so be it. I call it moderation.

Last edited by fueledbycoffee on 13 May 2013, 12:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Actually, I don't care.
For such a despised nation we sure get a lot of immigration.

Thats a matter of ideological relativism, not moral absolutism.

You're basically saying you're a selective democrat. You only want other countries to be able to pick their own rulers, in as far as it suits you.


Immigration is economically motivated, not ideologically motivated.

Whats more hating the government isn't the same as hating the country. I bet a hell of a lot of Americans are appalled at their own government's attitude towards Cuba.

We just haven't been heavy handed enough. You think we have but trust me we really haven't. Gain control then do the hearts and minds thingy from a position of power.


At that time Cuba didn't mean enough to the USSR to go to war over it. Especially a war that far from home and close to us when we could have cut them off and destroyed about half of their navy in the process.



If Cuba were in the Baltic Sea I wouldn't care one way or the other and probably not even notice. Being 90 miles off of the US coast makes it our business. They can have their sovereignty up to a point and they can have that without being under our boot heel but I wouldn't want them to lose sight of the boot that can easily and recklessly crush them.

Remember, my statement was that if it had been up to me Castro would have been denied his revolution in the first place by force of arms.
That was before my time and for the present day I'd just as soon starve them out. They've had their 54 year experiment and it failed.



Communism in it's heyday proved itself to be the significantly greater evil.
During the time of the evil empire I would have done whatever it would have taken to keep it bottled up.

There are many Stan Smiths in America. That's why the show is so funny.

Actually, the greatest political evil, and in fact, a large part of why Communism became so prominent in the developing world, is the Imperialism that you seem to espouse. Imagine this. I go to your house. I declare it mine, and just to prove the point, I shoot your dog (hypothetical, you automatically have a dog). I'm bigger than you. I then proceed to declare that you now have to maintain the place, while I sit on my ass and watch football. Maybe I get bored, and... ahem... take your wife. You complain, I beat the snot out of you. You try to leave, I beat the snot out of you. You do anything I don't like, you get a beating. Hey, I'm bigger than you. It's my right. What would you do?

As for not being heavy handed enough, what would you have us do? Win their hearts and minds by culling their cities and salting their fields? How about we just nuke the whole thing! It worked for the Israelites! Round 'em up, stick 'em in concentration camps. Let's make tracks across the world, an endless march of DEMOCRACY! and FREEDOM!, leaving naught but ash in it's wake! That'll keep 'em happy. Violence solves no problems? No man, no problem. They can't revolt when they're all dead, right?

Christ, you sicken me.