[ Long ] A Philosophy of Science v. Pseudo-Science

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The_Walrus
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12 Mar 2015, 5:35 pm

Oldavid wrote:
So "junk DNA" has become "pseudogenes" for the convenience of the ideological sales team... just like science has become empiricism. You guys have more tangles than a pot of spaghetti.

No, "junk DNA" is a layman's term which includes many things other than pseudogenes. Pseudogenes are a specific feature of the "junk DNA", they're genes which have become inoperative.

If entropy was a hard and fast rule, life would be impossible and many chemical reactions wouldn't happen.



Oldavid
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12 Mar 2015, 6:54 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
If entropy was a hard and fast rule, life would be impossible and many chemical reactions wouldn't happen.
Well, almost. That would be the case if everything was purely physics and chemistry as Materialism gratuitously claims.

Stick around until I have time to explain entropy realistically. Materialism, Empiricism must ignore and contradict many, if not most, readily demonstrable Natural Laws... most obviously and directly entropy.



ruveyn
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13 Mar 2015, 10:59 am

The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
So "junk DNA" has become "pseudogenes" for the convenience of the ideological sales team... just like science has become empiricism. You guys have more tangles than a pot of spaghetti.

No, "junk DNA" is a layman's term which includes many things other than pseudogenes. Pseudogenes are a specific feature of the "junk DNA", they're genes which have become inoperative.

If entropy was a hard and fast rule, life would be impossible and many chemical reactions wouldn't happen.


Entropy is a real as rain. The entropy of any closed thermodynamic system increases over time. This his been established by experiment gazillions of times. Mathematically the number of microstates over which a macrostate is distributed increases, i.e. the energy of the system diffuses of an increasing array of microstates. This occurs with overwhelming probability.

So omelettes will never jump out of the pan back into their eggshells. Wood ashes will never unburn and become unburned wood. Cool water will never boil unless additional heat is applied and so on.

Entropy is real. And one of the consequences is that our deaths are inevitable. This basic fact of existence seems to upset a lot of people.



The_Walrus
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13 Mar 2015, 7:40 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
So "junk DNA" has become "pseudogenes" for the convenience of the ideological sales team... just like science has become empiricism. You guys have more tangles than a pot of spaghetti.

No, "junk DNA" is a layman's term which includes many things other than pseudogenes. Pseudogenes are a specific feature of the "junk DNA", they're genes which have become inoperative.

If entropy was a hard and fast rule, life would be impossible and many chemical reactions wouldn't happen.


Entropy is a real as rain. The entropy of any closed thermodynamic system increases over time. This his been established by experiment gazillions of times. Mathematically the number of microstates over which a macrostate is distributed increases, i.e. the energy of the system diffuses of an increasing array of microstates. This occurs with overwhelming probability.

Oh yes, I'm not denying basic thermodynamics. However, it is clearly possible for "open" systems to fight against entropy, otherwise there would never be a complete jigsaw puzzle.



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14 Mar 2015, 9:25 pm

This is what I like about wring planet. Sometimes you learn thimgs by reading what other people can teach you. Then there are times when you teach yourself, spurred on by the claims of others which you know are fundamentally wrong, but which you do not have the full evidence to refute. Such is the case with entropy. Thanks to David I have been researching this subject.

Fundemetally he is correct in linking evolution and complexity to entropy. Unfortunately for him he is basing his ideas on the work of Rudolf Clausius who invented the term. however Clausius did not know about atoms and his theories are only only partially correct. Move forward and we get he work of Carnot, and then we come to Ludwig Boltzmann. It is his understanding of entropy that is correct. Once you understand the full nature of entropy it becomes clear that not only does life and complexity not violate it, without entropy life and complexity could not exist. The physics behind his are quite simple, I will go into it a bit later. The really interesting question and one that we still have know answer for is why did the early universe have such low level of entropy.


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14 Mar 2015, 9:44 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
However, it is clearly possible for "open" systems to fight against entropy, otherwise there would never be a complete jigsaw puzzle.

I do struggle with "open" and "closed" systems. After all, are there any "closed" systems in nature? I get the idea that a closed system is an experimental construct, purely for getting baseline formulas etc.

As for fighting entropy, isn't all that we see a result of the momentum of that fight? The sun loses energy to the earth, which uses it for work, creating plants, animals, volcanoes, storms etc, all of which eventually disperses heat and photons back out to space. Please correct me if I have any of that wrong.


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14 Mar 2015, 10:15 pm

Essentially you are correct. The earth receives high energy electromagnetic radiation in the form of visible light and even higher energy in then form of ultra violate. some of this low entropy energy is used. the photons are reflected back into the universe as non visible lower energy infra red. Approximately 20 times the number of low energy infrared photons are returned. This increases by the overall entropy of the universe and maintains the conservation of momentum. The transfer of low entropy high energy photons into higher entropy, lower energy photons is what drives life on this planet.


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14 Mar 2015, 10:19 pm

Potentially the universe is a closed system, and if so all the thermal energy will eventually equilibrate and all complexity will cease as there will no longer be the ability to move from lower to higher entropy.


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15 Mar 2015, 2:35 am

I think it's important to distinguish between those who are deliberately trying to deceive for their own personal gain and those who have distorted thinking patterns or who have been duped either by themselves or others.

I have zero tolerance for con artists who know exactly what they are doing. For example, selling vitamins online to the mentally ill for profit knowing full well that they won't do anything or false prophets of religion who just want to make a buck off their self-help material. Etc, etc....



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16 Mar 2015, 6:04 am

Entropy.

The best (most succinct and precise) definition (description) of entropy is as it occurs in the "Second Law of Thermodynamics"; "All ordered systems, left to themselves tend toward maximum randomness and lowest energy (potential or differential)". That means that order naturally tends to degenerate into randomness (disorder) and energy potential tends to dissipate into a uniformity without potential because there's there's nowhere of lower potential left to go to...

Because energy must be dissipated in the maintenance, or sustaining, of an orderly system some con men with an ideology to sell will try to pretend that the energy consumed in the process creates the order. A sly mental trick.

Let's propose some practical examples to illustrate the process.

Most mothers like to have an orderly home. Order in her home requires:
1. An intellect to conceive the order.
2. The will to want the order.
3. The capacity, or power, to implement, or bring about, the order.

Now, that poor Mum who has been toiling away for years to install and maintain the order suddenly finds herself confronted by a clever-dick progeny who's been to school and learned that energy spontaneously creates order. SmArty tries to convince Mum that letting off a bomb (great release of energy) in the middle of her expertly managed domain, will spontaneously create order and she'll never have to tidy up again. Good luck with that one Smarty.

Or let's lift great weights to great heights. An intellect comes up with an idea of a crane to do the job. Skilled minds and hands divert energy and materials to make the machine using entropy in every step of the process. Smarty, with the benefit of his recently aquired great insights, comes along and proclaims that because the energy to build and operate the crane comes, ultimately, from the Sun then the Sun built the crane. Now, I just happen to know for sure that Central Australia gets lots and lots of solar energy but not one giant crane has ever spontaneously appeared in the desert.

Oh well, counters Smarty, "that only applies to non-biological systems. Energy applied to biological systems creates an increase in order and complexity opposed to entropy". Smarty has never heard of the "Law of Morphology" (which is really only entropy applied to biological systems) which says, simply, that "the more complex an organism and the more often it is reproduced, the more likely it is that something will go wrong in the process".

So, the thousands of generations of Drosophilla (fruit flies) that have been subjected to every imaginable radiation "stimulus" to produce "sped up" "evolution" have only ever produced some wreckage of their DNA or genome... not one super-human spaceman.

Ultimately, untold thousands of generations of diligent and wise housekeeping Mums are in tune with reality... the Smartys are not.

Order is a product of Intellect, Will, and Life.



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16 Mar 2015, 6:39 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I think it's important to distinguish between those who are deliberately trying to deceive for their own personal gain and those who have distorted thinking patterns or who have been duped either by themselves or others...
Such as those who mis-apply linguistic principles and use disproven archaic ideas in a vain attempt to disprove established scientific facts and reasoning.



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16 Mar 2015, 7:11 am

Fnord wrote:
Such as those who mis-apply linguistic principles and use disproven archaic ideas in a vain attempt to disprove established scientific facts and reasoning.
Of course I don't know what the other stuff is but scientific facts and reasoning will be dealt with according to scientific method and reasoning.



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16 Mar 2015, 8:10 am

Oldavid wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Such as those who mis-apply linguistic principles and use disproven archaic ideas in a vain attempt to disprove established scientific facts and reasoning.
Of course I don't know what the other stuff is but scientific facts and reasoning will be dealt with according to scientific method and reasoning.
Well, of course you don't.



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16 Mar 2015, 10:41 am

Fnord wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Fnord wrote:
Such as those who mis-apply linguistic principles and use disproven archaic ideas in a vain attempt to disprove established scientific facts and reasoning.
Of course I don't know what the other stuff is but scientific facts and reasoning will be dealt with according to scientific method and reasoning.
Well, of course you don't.
You hope!



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16 Mar 2015, 11:47 am

Oldavid wrote:

Order is a product of Intellect, Will, and Life.


crystals, snowflakes etc.



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16 Mar 2015, 1:03 pm

Janissy wrote:
Oldavid wrote:

Order is a product of Intellect, Will, and Life.


crystals, snowflakes etc.

Been there, done that.