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lotuspuppy
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06 Oct 2013, 11:41 pm

eric76 wrote:
Many people are buying into the nonsense that it is the Republican who are the problem.

Well, I certainly don't hold the Democrats blameless. But do you think that the GOP is split into factions right now?



sonofghandi
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07 Oct 2013, 7:19 am

eric76 wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k7RCKKrRf24[/youtube]

Does anyone actually believe there is any other reason for closings like this other than to cause maximal pain?

Not sure why that doesn't want to work. Click on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k7RCKKrRf24
The government shut down process is based on legislation passed before you were born. Trying to say that one side or the other is trying to maximise the pain is slightly flawed.

The Democrats and the Obama administration has offered (multiple times) to discuss and negotiate on changes to the ACA, but will not negotiate on defunding or repealing it. That is where the impass lies. The Tea Party does not have a majority, but they do have enough reps that Boehner will lose his Speaker of the House position if he does not appease them. That is why there has been no up-or-down vote in the House, and why all sides have come to a point where none can back down without losing face. There is no one side to blame for the events leading up to this, as there is plenty of blame to go around. However, at this point there is only one man holding up the process.

The draft up for vote contains many concessions to Republicans, mostly put in by the House and let stand by the Democratic Senate in the hope that it may prevent the shutdown. There are enough supporters of the current Senate version for it to pass the House; there are quite a few Republicans who find this showdown absurd and detrimental to the country.


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07 Oct 2013, 10:50 am

lotuspuppy wrote:
So what do y'all think of John Boehner?


He is a sniveling, vile, pessimistic, corrupt, insensitive self-serving, incompetent, pessimistic, anti-family radical.



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07 Oct 2013, 11:56 am

Boehner is a squishy POS that shouldn't of been reelected Speaker this past November. He does not represent the views of his caucus or his base, the establishment of the GOP are as bad or worse than any Democrat. John Boehner, Eric Canter, John McCain, Lindsay Graham, Peter King, and so many more are what is wrong with this party and this country.



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07 Oct 2013, 12:07 pm

simon_says wrote:
The official argument is that tens of thousands of park rangers are furloughed. There is no one to protect those sites. Who would prevent or repair any vandalism or theft?

Of course Obama could call them essential services and keep them running, but why would he? Let the GOP lie in it's own low rent diaper wetting mess.


What about all the states that spend their own money operating these parks and monuments? I'm sure all the states that actually make money from these parks and monuments would be more than willing to spend their own money to operate them. I know Jan Brewer made that offer, too bad she isn't more like Fife Symington who took the Arizona National Guard to reopen the Grand Canyon back in 1995. Scott Walker told the federal government to buzz off and kept all the parks and trails open. They spend more money keeping this stuff closed than they do to operate it, this is a PUNISHMENT by the Obama administration and senate Democrats for not bowing to their will. The House represents the people, the House controls the purse strings. Obama and the Senate are saying they won't negotiate, they are causing this shutdown. Why is the government even operating on a 'Continuing Resolution'? Congress hasn't passed a budget since 2009, notice it doesn't coincide with the GOP taking back the House. They didn't pass a budget in 2010 either when Democrats had a supermajority in the House and Senate.



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07 Oct 2013, 2:15 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
eric76 wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k7RCKKrRf24[/youtube]

Does anyone actually believe there is any other reason for closings like this other than to cause maximal pain?

Not sure why that doesn't want to work. Click on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=k7RCKKrRf24
The government shut down process is based on legislation passed before you were born. Trying to say that one side or the other is trying to maximise the pain is slightly flawed.


Huh? Then why were such measures never taken in previous shutdowns? Prior to 1980, government shutdowns saw little, if anything at all, shut down. People stayed at work doing their jobs and everything continued with the knowledge that Congress would pass laws that retroactively made sure that everyone got paid and stayed working?

And as far as the procedures, in what year prior to my birthdate was this process created? If the process was created prior to my birthdate, then why was it never followed until President Carter's attorney general decided that the government had no authority to keep working when it ran out of money?

Did you know that President Carter was a Democrat? If you want to blame one party for shutdowns, then that party should be the Democrats since it was a Democrat administration that first decided that the government had to shut down. Prior to that it was a non-issue.

Quote:
The Democrats and the Obama administration has offered (multiple times) to discuss and negotiate on changes to the ACA, but will not negotiate on defunding or repealing it. That is where the impass lies. The Tea Party does not have a majority, but they do have enough reps that Boehner will lose his Speaker of the House position if he does not appease them. That is why there has been no up-or-down vote in the House, and why all sides have come to a point where none can back down without losing face. There is no one side to blame for the events leading up to this, as there is plenty of blame to go around. However, at this point there is only one man holding up the process.
That one man's name is President Obama. As I understand it, he says that he will be happy to consider changes once the funding is completely provided. That's some negotiating style -- give me what I want and then we might discuss some minor changes.



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07 Oct 2013, 3:04 pm

For some reason this would not post, so I posted again ( with a site added), then this post posted! I'm confused!


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Last edited by wittgenstein on 07 Oct 2013, 3:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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07 Oct 2013, 3:05 pm

He is a wimp. He knows that the shutdown is bad for America and bad for the Republican party but he fears the tea party ( the Koch bros) * because they threaten his position as Speaker of the United States House of Representatives. He says and does things he does not believe in.
He is willing to sacrifice America and the Republican party to keep his job.
* The tea party is not grass roots. It is a puppet of Wall Street and international corporations.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/29/opini ... .html?_r=0


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07 Oct 2013, 3:11 pm

Image


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07 Oct 2013, 3:17 pm

Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.



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07 Oct 2013, 3:20 pm

simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.



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07 Oct 2013, 3:26 pm

eric76 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.


Threatening to destroy the economy and bring a global financial apocalypse because they didnt win an election and get to defund Obamacare? Yeah, that's perfectly sane. :lol:



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07 Oct 2013, 3:31 pm

eric76 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.

How? Imagine a football game. Team “A” wins by 21 points. Team “B” says, “give us 22 points and let us win the game or we will shut down the NFL”. Team “A” refuses to negotiate so team “B” shuts down the NFL. Which team is acting childish?
Letting team “B” shut down the NFL for its own agenda would set a dangerous precedent. Similarly, letting the Tea Party not enforce a law ( Obamacare) that passed Congress, sets a VERY dangerous precedent and makes future legislation problematic. A country without any government is like a ship without a rudder.


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eric76
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07 Oct 2013, 5:27 pm

wittgenstein wrote:
eric76 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.

How? Imagine a football game. Team “A” wins by 21 points. Team “B” says, “give us 22 points and let us win the game or we will shut down the NFL”. Team “A” refuses to negotiate so team “B” shuts down the NFL. Which team is acting childish?
Letting team “B” shut down the NFL for its own agenda would set a dangerous precedent. Similarly, letting the Tea Party not enforce a law ( Obamacare) that passed Congress, sets a VERY dangerous precedent and makes future legislation problematic. A country without any government is like a ship without a rudder.


I think that there have been many cases where bills passed by Congress and signed into law by the President were either funded far too small for them to be effective or never even funded at all.

Why is this one any different?

And it is not the job of the Tea Party to enforce the law. That goes with the Executive Branch. And we've seen how well Obama doesn't enforce the law since he arbitrarily decides that certain favored companies and other organizations are not required to obey the law. How can you rant about the Republican House of Representatives when faced with a President who refuses to enforce laws they passed and he signed into law?

The fact is that ObamaCare being signed into law does not mean that it cannot be modified or even repealed. And regardless of what they passed, it is the job of Congress to either provide the funds, partially provide the funds, or not provide any funding at all for it. It is completely up to Congress whether or not they fund or don't fund it. Your argument reflects not on Congress but on your rather naive view of how the government works.



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07 Oct 2013, 5:43 pm

eric76 wrote:
wittgenstein wrote:
eric76 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.

How? Imagine a football game. Team “A” wins by 21 points. Team “B” says, “give us 22 points and let us win the game or we will shut down the NFL”. Team “A” refuses to negotiate so team “B” shuts down the NFL. Which team is acting childish?
Letting team “B” shut down the NFL for its own agenda would set a dangerous precedent. Similarly, letting the Tea Party not enforce a law ( Obamacare) that passed Congress, sets a VERY dangerous precedent and makes future legislation problematic. A country without any government is like a ship without a rudder.


I think that there have been many cases where bills passed by Congress and signed into law by the President were either funded far too small for them to be effective or never even funded at all.

Why is this one any different?

And it is not the job of the Tea Party to enforce the law. That goes with the Executive Branch. And we've seen how well Obama doesn't enforce the law since he arbitrarily decides that certain favored companies and other organizations are not required to obey the law. How can you rant about the Republican House of Representatives when faced with a President who refuses to enforce laws they passed and he signed into law?

The fact is that ObamaCare being signed into law does not mean that it cannot be modified or even repealed. And regardless of what they passed, it is the job of Congress to either provide the funds, partially provide the funds, or not provide any funding at all for it. It is completely up to Congress whether or not they fund or don't fund it. Your argument reflects not on Congress but on your rather naive view of how the government works.


1. Elements of many laws have been delayed in the past if executing them in good faith required it. Perfectly legal and rarely challenged.

2. Try to focus on reality. Obama will not destroy his own exchanges by delaying the mandate.

3. The Democrats could attach unreasonable demands to funding and debt ceiling bills as well. Republicans are counting on the fact that the Democrats are sane.

4. If you want to change things try winning some elections. Threatening the stability of the US and world economy isnt the way.



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07 Oct 2013, 5:50 pm

simon_says wrote:
eric76 wrote:
simon_says wrote:
Far right Republicans always expect to get away with acting like crazy children and expect the adults (Democrats) to appease them with candy and not duplicate their behavior. The WH thinks that if they make debt ceiling extortion acceptable it will become routine and eventually there will be a default anyway.
I'd hardly call either major party adults.

But in this case, the Republicans are acting more like adults than the Democrats.


Threatening to destroy the economy and bring a global financial apocalypse because they didnt win an election and get to defund Obamacare? Yeah, that's perfectly sane. :lol:


Spending within our means would bring a global financial apocalypse? That doesn't sound good now or when the credit card finally does run out whenever does happen and that bubble is just going to get bigger, I suppose our grandchildren will be the ones that will have to worry about that. If you're talking about default then you should know there is ZERO chance that US will default, the US brings in more than enough revenue to service its debt. Other spending would need to be prioritized. It won't be that way forever, just the interest on our debt will surpass amount we spend on Social Security and defense eventually. The buck has to stop somewhere.