Bad To The Bone.
Sometimes I hear people talk about the natural goodness of human nature and think, that they must be talking about some other humans in a distant galaxy. I can find no evidence that people are born good. On the contrary, from birth humans display a natural response toward greed, violence, and indifference that borders on malevolence. For example, a young child of two shows a pension for theft from those who are weaker than itself, hitting and possibly injuring those who make the child angry, and laughter at pain ( schadenfreude). As you grow you are indoctrinated with morals, social code, and legal repercussions of actions, which eventually govern your thought process. Without these teachings the so called, "natural human" is a creature that makes even the most savage animal in nature seem benign. To commit a serious crime a person first must breach their moral code, which may or may not be strong depending on the individuals convictions. Next, the person must be willing to loose their life in respect to societies recognition and legal ramifications. Once an individual has forfeited this belief system the natural human animal fully emerges in all it's horror. However, there is one additional fail-safe that is liable to spur contention among readers. It is the punishment that may or may not come in the hereafter. Religion can ( but not always) serve as a last line of defense from committing a horrible act. When a person has nothing to loose and a total disregard for the laws of man, then perhaps the vision of divine punishment can serve as a finale barrier. In my view , we appear to be civilized by laws and code and not by some unknown fuzzy bunny hopping in are heart.
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
Chimpanzees and Humans have inherited all of the less lovable traits from our common ancestor which lived about six million years ago. Humans are not Good. They are not Evil. They are Human and have many of the primate impulses of their primate ancestors. It is in the genes.
ruveyn
We seem to have a natural tendency to exploit weaknesses in others, even if it doesn't benefit ourselves. I agree that generally humans are selfish and greedy. But on a positive note I feel these tendencies came about only in the last few thousand years. I think for most of our history we were co-operative with each other.
I think the selfishness comes about with population rises.
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
Yikes..I would not want to live where you live..as where I live that is certainly not the case..as overall people are very friendly to each other and for the most part would never harm another..even with some discriminatory tastes in logic..and preconceived notions...
Religion really does work to domesticate human beings overall..and exists well in to the prehistoric record of man..
As left to their own devices without cultural group rules..humans do not fair well in cooperation..or even competition...
But as always there are cultural rules..just as there is with other primates..wolves..and all social animals that breed...
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
Well..perhaps you might not have spent much time around feral cats..
The males try to bite the 'nuts' off the breeding competitors..
Middle school can be pretty tough when puberty hits human primates..but no we don't bite the nuts off of each other..at least not yet...as cultural rules are not always pretty...
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
The Third Chimpanzee, Jared Diamond.
Chimps kill, Bonomos are Pan Sexual, but we got the bad habits.
We were Created in the image of the Hairless Ground Ape God, who smites everything.
Along the way there were many other versions, we killed them, which is the only way to become the surving species.
Our closest relatives, Chimps and Bonomos, we call Bush Meat.
Our Rules, Do not get caught doing X,Y,Z. It is the same as not doing it.
What is strongly forbidden, the worst fear, is having sex with other species.
We can buy things from the Chinese Communists, but not date a Bonomo.
Killing most things is called sport, killing our species war, and it gets the best of everything.
Even in politics, we have Wars on drugs, misbelievers, that never work, but it is the highest involvment.
Insane hairless ground apes. If we spent as much on education we could be rich, perhaps less insane, but that would reduce war spending, and one thing the Hairless Ground Ape God demands, is the Smiting Machine must be kept oiled and ready.
No, its fine where I live. The topic is not about personal experience. It is about human nature. Common knowledge dictates that humans are naturally bad when they are free to act on their own accord or when a society deems such behavior to be normal. I think this trait is directly related to intelligence and is caused by individual desire.
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
wittgenstein
Veteran

Joined: 13 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,523
Location: Trapped inside a hominid skull
Actually, our altruism and greed are not based on us! * They are strategies to perpetuate our genes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
* We are altruistic (sacrifice our lives even) to perpetuate genes. We are greedy to perpetuate genes. Actually, in this context we are neither altruistic nor greedy. Our personalities are simply genetic strategies!
_________________
YES! This is me!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gtdlR4rUcY
I went up over 50 feet!
I love debate!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtckVng_1a0
My debate style is calm and deadly!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-230v_ecAcM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Selfish_Gene
* We are altruistic (sacrifice our lives even) to perpetuate genes. We are greedy to perpetuate genes. Actually, in this context we are neither altruistic nor greedy. Our personalities are simply genetic strategies!
Dawkins is good - real good - but he is in no way a *primary* source of the biology of human morality...
Here are the true giants (In my opinion, and from the 20th century only - Darwin outperforms all of them by definition, of course*): Except Hume
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R.A._Fisher
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J.B.S._Haldane
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W.D._Hamilton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._Price
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Maynard_Smith
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Trivers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E._O._Wilson
No, its fine where I live. The topic is not about personal experience. It is about human nature. Common knowledge dictates that humans are naturally bad when they are free to act on their own accord or when a society deems such behavior to be normal. I think this trait is directly related to intelligence and is caused by individual desire.
I am not sure what you mean by common knowledge..but there are many very peaceful and cooperative primitive societies that still exist in the world...where people show an inherent respect and cooperation..as the culture is simply different of one of sharing instead of Capitalism...
There is even a myth that still exists..that wolves are cruel animals among their own kind in packs in the wild..that couldn't be any farther from the truth..as they exist in a very cooperative social structure..where the wolves are nurturing among each other...
There is no scientific evidence that mankind is inherently 'bad'...Social animals only survive through cooperation...
Technology is the main force that allows the illusion of independence that is the actual source of most criminal activity..as the focus has moved away from social cooperation in modern culture...to a me focused objective in general...
Humans evolutionary speaking were always a we culture..not a me culture...there was nothing but a team effort in the past..per all the archaeological evidence..that currently exists...
_________________
KATiE MiA FredericK!iI
Gravatar is one of the coolest things ever!! !
http://en.gravatar.com/katiemiafrederick
I suppose bad is subjective. Perhaps a better term would be savage.
Humans evolutionary speaking were always a we culture..not a me culture...there was nothing but a team effort in the past..per all the archaeological evidence..that currently exists...
I will have to disagree with this. Technology can be used to make life easier, increase production, and decrease competition for key necessities. Also, a "we" society can also be capable of extreme savagery that would not be possible for an individualist society. I would therefore assume that a self reliant society that encourages free trade would be more peaceful since it fosters greater flexibility during times of downturn and is less prone to violent groupthink.
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
My niece is 3, and I've seen her show instinctive gentleness and affection towards small birds and pets. Children are often careless, but that's largely because they don't understand at first that they are capable of hurting others; when they understand that they have caused someone or something pain, they are often heartbroken.
the bird, then would she not be scolded and punished? I find it highly unlikely that she has a natural instinct of kindness towards small animals, since there is no personal benefit in such behavior. For example, would she show the same affection to a rat or a snake? I think not.
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius
If she had crushed the bird, she wouldn't have gotten to pet it and interact with it any more. Her parents and I would have been sad, and so would she have been. We didn't have to tell her why she shouldn't want to break it. She got that part without us having to say anything.
I showed her a garter snake when she was about two, and she had no particular reaction to it besides mild curiosity. She's not as in to animals as I was, but I don't remember ever feeling anything towards animals in general (including snakes, frogs, and bugs) besides curiosity and affection. At some point I developed an utter loathing of ticks, but I think that can be forgiven.
I would assume most of that behavior is learned either from observation or punishment. The behavior would most likely not appear naturally since there is no survival benefit. Does a young child of two cry because he/she is remorseful of the pain inflicted or in hopes of avoiding the negative reinforcement from the caregiver?
_________________
"Everything we hear is an opinion, not a fact. Everything we see is a perspective, not the truth." - Marcus Aurelius