Which would you rather be taught in schools ?

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If one of these two principles had to be taught in schools, which would you rather it be ?
Flying Spaghetti Monster Theory 79%  79%  [ 19 ]
Intelligent Design Theory 21%  21%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 24

Ladywoofwoof
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18 Oct 2013, 2:48 pm

If one of these two principles had to be taught in schools, which would you rather it be ?



Jono
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18 Oct 2013, 2:50 pm

Neither, I would rather that science was taught in a science class.



zer0netgain
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18 Oct 2013, 3:32 pm

Science should explore and debate ALL possibilities for how we came to be here.

The odds of macro evolution being true is astronomically large, and yet, they won't even discuss the idea of humanity being transplanted here or the deliberate seeding of life by another life form...which is a whole lot more probable when you consider the odds against life just happening spontaneously on its own.



Moviefan2k4
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18 Oct 2013, 3:35 pm

When I was in school about 20 years ago, I remember being taught that the Earth started out as a big ball of molten rock, but no one bothered explaining where they got that idea. The teachers would read from the books instead of using their own words to help anyone understand what we were being exposed to, almost like they were afraid of losing their jobs over the slightest deviance from the text.

In short, I think the only kind of science taught in schools should be what conforms to the main parameters of that term: observation in nature, and laboratory testing to verify hypotheses. Throw out unproven junk like the geologic column, transitional forms, and charts that show different "stages of evolution" all having human feet.

I've heard from many people that the word "evolution" actually has many different meanings, divided as follows:

Cosmic (the origins of time, space, and matter)
Chemical (how hydrogen gave birth to other elements like helium)
Stellar (how planets and stars came into existence)
Organic (the origin of life itself)
Macro (molecules to man, i.e. "the goo to you via the zoo")
Micro (small variations within set structures)

When most use the term "evolution", they're usually referring to Macro, since that's what a lot of universities and such champion (to say nothing of the media). The only visually conclusive evidence actually points to Micro, and mutations don't add existing information, which would be needed for anything to change very far from its original state.

A common example is bacteria, where one variant becomes resistant to different medicines, but most ignore the obvious conclusion: they don't change into anything beyond other bacteria. Nothing visible in nature supports the "millions of years" concept, not even the fossil record.


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Janissy
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18 Oct 2013, 4:02 pm

zer0netgain wrote:
Science should explore and debate ALL possibilities for how we came to be here.

The odds of macro evolution being true is astronomically large, and yet, they won't even discuss the idea of humanity being transplanted here or the deliberate seeding of life by another life form...which is a whole lot more probable when you consider the odds against life just happening spontaneously on its own.


Scientists are very open to the possibility that life on earth was seeded from elsewhere.

http://phys.org/news203584634.html

Quote:
(PhysOrg.com) -- Life on Earth as we know it really could be from out of this world. New research from Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory scientists shows that comets that crashed into Earth millions of years ago could have produced amino acids - the building blocks of life.

Read more at: http://phys.org/news203584634.html#jCp


edited to add: they aren't saying intelligent aliens brought life butrather that comets could have brought the molecules that got the process going, they are "seeds" in that sense but not the literal DNA sense.

But this doesn't mean that life didn't just spontaneously happen on its own. It merely moves that spontaneous event to another planet.


Back to the poll question. Neither of those things should be taught in school as fact. It would be fine to teach both as examples of fiction.



Last edited by Janissy on 18 Oct 2013, 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Walrus
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18 Oct 2013, 4:33 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:

I've heard from many people that the word "evolution" actually has many different meanings, divided as follows:

Cosmic (the origins of time, space, and matter)
Chemical (how hydrogen gave birth to other elements like helium)
Stellar (how planets and stars came into existence)
Organic (the origin of life itself)
Macro (molecules to man, i.e. "the goo to you via the zoo")
Micro (small variations within set structures)

I've only heard this used by Young Earthers. Macro and microevolution are the same thing; the others are unrelated concepts that YE talking heads like to mock.

Quote:
The only visually conclusive evidence actually points to Micro,

That's wrong. For a start, the distinction between "macro" and "micro" is a false one, as stated above. We have observed speciation (Dobzhansky, Th., and O. Pavlovsky, 1971. "An experimentally created incipient species of Drosophila", Nature 23:289-292. ; Mosquin, T., 1967. "Evidence for autopolyploidy in Epilobium angustifolium (Onaagraceae)", Evolution 21:713-719 ; in fact I'm going to give you this huge list: http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html) and we have loads of evidence for common descent: vestigial organs, such as the hairs on your skin that prick up, and your tailbone; vestigial genes that are active in some species but been turned off in others (why would they even be there?), the fusing of two chimpanzee chromosomes in humans; degrees of change in genetic fingerprint regions; mitochondrial and chloroplast DNA; and many more reasons I haven't memorised or even heard of.

Quote:
and mutations don't add existing information,

This is outright wrong.
Quote:
A common example is bacteria, where one variant becomes resistant to different medicines, but most ignore the obvious conclusion: they don't change into anything beyond other bacteria.

That's because you're not giving them enough time. And regardless, we have seen species of fly separate.

Quote:
Nothing visible in nature supports the "millions of years" concept, not even the fossil record.

Wrong. As well as the evidence I listed above, the fossil record does support it.



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18 Oct 2013, 4:53 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
[
Quote:
A common example is bacteria, where one variant becomes resistant to different medicines, but most ignore the obvious conclusion: they don't change into anything beyond other bacteria.

That's because you're not giving them enough time. And regardless, we have seen species of fly separate.

.


Nick Lane explained this brilliantly in his book about mitochondria. I am considerably less brilliant than Nick Lane so can't remember it all, but more or less he explained that complex life requires mitochondria and that mitochondria came into existence when an ancient type of bacteria took to living inside another single cell and created a symbiotic relationship. Now that ancient bacteria isn't really an individual anymore, it's mitochondria. Anyhoo.... bacteria can mutate all they want but will continue to stay bacteria. The jump to multicellular life seemed to be a one time event arising from that original symbiosis and the conditions that made it possible no longer exist on earth so bacteria will continue to be bacteria no matter how much they mutate. But all the multicellular organisms on the other side of that hard divide can blossom into much more diversity, as they have.

Hopefully somebody else who has read the book more recently and/or has a better handle on this stuff can unscramble my garbled explanation.



adifferentname
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18 Oct 2013, 5:24 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
When I was in school about 20 years ago, I remember being taught that the Earth started out as a big ball of molten rock, but no one bothered explaining where they got that idea. The teachers would read from the books instead of using their own words to help anyone understand what we were being exposed to, almost like they were afraid of losing their jobs over the slightest deviance from the text.

In short, I think the only kind of science taught in schools should be what conforms to the main parameters of that term: observation in nature, and laboratory testing to verify hypotheses. Throw out unproven junk like the geologic column, transitional forms, and charts that show different "stages of evolution" all having human feet.

I've heard from many people that the word "evolution" actually has many different meanings, divided as follows:

Cosmic (the origins of time, space, and matter)
Chemical (how hydrogen gave birth to other elements like helium)
Stellar (how planets and stars came into existence)
Organic (the origin of life itself)
Macro (molecules to man, i.e. "the goo to you via the zoo")
Micro (small variations within set structures)

When most use the term "evolution", they're usually referring to Macro, since that's what a lot of universities and such champion (to say nothing of the media). The only visually conclusive evidence actually points to Micro, and mutations don't add existing information, which would be needed for anything to change very far from its original state.

A common example is bacteria, where one variant becomes resistant to different medicines, but most ignore the obvious conclusion: they don't change into anything beyond other bacteria. Nothing visible in nature supports the "millions of years" concept, not even the fossil record.


The quoted text is a perfect example of why neither should be taught anywhere.

zer0netgain wrote:
Science should explore and debate ALL possibilities for how we came to be here.


Which is precisely what happens, except the debate of possibilities is of far less import than the study of falsifiable evidence.

Quote:
The odds of macro evolution being true is astronomically large


You do realise that the word 'macro' is redundant in the above sentence?

Quote:
and yet, they won't even discuss the idea of humanity being transplanted here or the deliberate seeding of life by another life form...


Do you have regular discourse with scientists? Or did you mean to say that they will not introduce unsubstantiated hypotheses into the established arena of knowledge? If the former, you are simply incorrect. If the latter then, once more, this is how science works.

Quote:
which is a whole lot more probable when you consider the odds against life just happening spontaneously on its own.


Please cite the evidence supporting the relative probabilities of either hypothesis.



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18 Oct 2013, 5:39 pm

Neither.

Practical (Physical) Science should be taught only insofar as it can be demonstrated.

Theoretical Science should be taught only after a factual mathematical basis has been firmly established.

Religious indoctrination should be left in the wilderness to wither away.


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18 Oct 2013, 5:56 pm

At school, I was taught ID three times:

1) GCSE science (age 15)- as a way of illustrating what makes something a scientific theory. ID didn't qualify.
2) GCSE RE (age 15)- the course was a study of what Christians believe. We did the teleological argument and ID was briefly covered. Awareness that many Christians do not believe in ID was required for a good grade.
3) AS Philosophy (age 17)- a more in depth look at teleology; we looked at Beehee and irreducible complexity. The ability to critique this concept was necessary to gain a good grade, and we studied Hume and Russell and Moore so we were well prepared. We saw that Beehee's example- the flagellum- wasn't actually irreducibly complex.

Teaching ID is fine- just teach it in the correct context!



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18 Oct 2013, 6:10 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
At school, I was taught ID three times:

1) GCSE science (age 15)- as a way of illustrating what makes something a scientific theory. ID didn't qualify.
2) GCSE RE (age 15)- the course was a study of what Christians believe. We did the teleological argument and ID was briefly covered. Awareness that many Christians do not believe in ID was required for a good grade.
3) AS Philosophy (age 17)- a more in depth look at teleology; we looked at Beehee and irreducible complexity. The ability to critique this concept was necessary to gain a good grade, and we studied Hume and Russell and Moore so we were well prepared. We saw that Beehee's example- the flagellum- wasn't actually irreducibly complex.

Teaching ID is fine- just teach it in the correct context!

Hume at 17? I wish I had your curriculum. I could have spared myself 10,000+ pages of BS.



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18 Oct 2013, 6:57 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
When I was in school about 20 years ago, I remember being taught that the Earth started out as a big ball of molten rock, but no one bothered explaining where they got that idea. The teachers would read from the books instead of using their own words to help anyone understand what we were being exposed to, almost like they were afraid of losing their jobs over the slightest deviance from the text.

In short, I think the only kind of science taught in schools should be what conforms to the main parameters of that term: observation in nature, and laboratory testing to verify hypotheses. Throw out unproven junk like the geologic column, transitional forms, and charts that show different "stages of evolution" all having human feet.

I've heard from many people that the word "evolution" actually has many different meanings, divided as follows:

Cosmic (the origins of time, space, and matter)
Chemical (how hydrogen gave birth to other elements like helium)
Stellar (how planets and stars came into existence)
Organic (the origin of life itself)
Macro (molecules to man, i.e. "the goo to you via the zoo")
Micro (small variations within set structures)

When most use the term "evolution", they're usually referring to Macro, since that's what a lot of universities and such champion (to say nothing of the media). The only visually conclusive evidence actually points to Micro, and mutations don't add existing information, which would be needed for anything to change very far from its original state.

A common example is bacteria, where one variant becomes resistant to different medicines, but most ignore the obvious conclusion: they don't change into anything beyond other bacteria. Nothing visible in nature supports the "millions of years" concept, not even the fossil record.

Really?
Are you really going to go there?
I'll give you a chance to walk that back before I destroy you with reams of evidence, mainly because I'm off to Kendo.



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18 Oct 2013, 7:19 pm

I vote for the ID (i didn't but I have changed my mind). ID should be taught in schools so that children understand it for what it is, an attempt to subvert real scientific endeavour by people who are so delusional regarding their religious beliefs that they cannot abide the results the scientific method has produced. It should be held up to the same extra-ordinary scrutiny of a scientific theory, that way no kid should ever be left in any doubt that ID is simply an elaborate thought bubble with no supporting evidence.


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19 Oct 2013, 4:43 pm

GGPViper wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
At school, I was taught ID three times:

1) GCSE science (age 15)- as a way of illustrating what makes something a scientific theory. ID didn't qualify.
2) GCSE RE (age 15)- the course was a study of what Christians believe. We did the teleological argument and ID was briefly covered. Awareness that many Christians do not believe in ID was required for a good grade.
3) AS Philosophy (age 17)- a more in depth look at teleology; we looked at Beehee and irreducible complexity. The ability to critique this concept was necessary to gain a good grade, and we studied Hume and Russell and Moore so we were well prepared. We saw that Beehee's example- the flagellum- wasn't actually irreducibly complex.

Teaching ID is fine- just teach it in the correct context!

Hume at 17? I wish I had your curriculum. I could have spared myself 10,000+ pages of BS.


Do they not have optional philosophy classes in Danish post-16 education? If they do, what do you cover in them? I know this is off-topic, I'm just genuinely curious.

Philosophy A Level in Britain is quite unpopular because it is extremely difficult and not well-respected by people who haven't taken it. The History, Sociology and Politics A Levels are all much easier and have about the same prestige as philosophy for applying to university (unless you want to do philosophy at university - which is also very difficult and not as well-respected as it should be.) British culture just doesn't seem to value philosophy much, but we're good at teaching it to people who can be bothered to learn it :? I am too thick for philosophy beyond a 'Sophie's World' level - I would've struggled with the A Level. Haha, sorry for waffling.

As for the actual topic, I agree with The_Walrus, and had the same experience of education apart from the A-Level bit because I took Politics instead.


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GGPViper
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19 Oct 2013, 5:05 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
At school, I was taught ID three times:

1) GCSE science (age 15)- as a way of illustrating what makes something a scientific theory. ID didn't qualify.
2) GCSE RE (age 15)- the course was a study of what Christians believe. We did the teleological argument and ID was briefly covered. Awareness that many Christians do not believe in ID was required for a good grade.
3) AS Philosophy (age 17)- a more in depth look at teleology; we looked at Beehee and irreducible complexity. The ability to critique this concept was necessary to gain a good grade, and we studied Hume and Russell and Moore so we were well prepared. We saw that Beehee's example- the flagellum- wasn't actually irreducibly complex.

Teaching ID is fine- just teach it in the correct context!

Hume at 17? I wish I had your curriculum. I could have spared myself 10,000+ pages of BS.

Do they not have optional philosophy classes in Danish post-16 education? If they do, what do you cover in them? I know this is off-topic, I'm just genuinely curious.

The Danish High School philosophy classes are optional. The curriculum is not. And the curriculum has - until recently - been heavily influenced by the teachers of philosophy classes and their political convictions.

In Denmark, those philosophers who are held in highest esteem by the scientific community (Hume, Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos) are mostly only introduced to students at the university level.



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19 Oct 2013, 5:16 pm

GGPViper wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
At school, I was taught ID three times:

1) GCSE science (age 15)- as a way of illustrating what makes something a scientific theory. ID didn't qualify.
2) GCSE RE (age 15)- the course was a study of what Christians believe. We did the teleological argument and ID was briefly covered. Awareness that many Christians do not believe in ID was required for a good grade.
3) AS Philosophy (age 17)- a more in depth look at teleology; we looked at Beehee and irreducible complexity. The ability to critique this concept was necessary to gain a good grade, and we studied Hume and Russell and Moore so we were well prepared. We saw that Beehee's example- the flagellum- wasn't actually irreducibly complex.

Teaching ID is fine- just teach it in the correct context!

Hume at 17? I wish I had your curriculum. I could have spared myself 10,000+ pages of BS.

Do they not have optional philosophy classes in Danish post-16 education? If they do, what do you cover in them? I know this is off-topic, I'm just genuinely curious.

The Danish High School philosophy classes are optional. The curriculum is not. And the curriculum has - until recently - been heavily influenced by the teachers of philosophy classes and their political convictions.

In Denmark, those philosophers who are held in highest esteem by the scientific community (Hume, Popper, Kuhn and Lakatos) are mostly only introduced to students at the university level.


Oh wow. Granted Hume is the only one of those philosophers of science that get covered pre-university over here, maybe because he was Scottish and possibly (probably) the greatest British philosopher. We do Hobbes as well mainly because he was British (we're a bit thin on the ground for 'great' philosophers.) I wish they did Popper at 17 over here.


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