South Koreans defecting... ...TO North Korea
30 Oct 2013, 3:18 pm
I took you at face value and genuinely assumed you were that stupid. You've given little evidence to the contrary.
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Last edited by AspieOtaku on 30 Oct 2013, 3:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jacoby
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30 Oct 2013, 3:23 pm
I'm against all those things but being against the abuses done by the American government doesn't mean that you align yourself with all that oppose it. North Korea has enslaved its people, they have made the Kim dynasty into gods on earth, and they threaten the safety of not only the region but the world. They're not unfairly criticized because they call themselves communist, North Korea is a truly evil country. They have murdered millions of their own people and have had millions more perish to starvation due to their failed economic and political system. All of their resources are funneled to their military and to put up a facade of a functioning society. They are indefensible.
30 Oct 2013, 3:27 pm
North Korea treats there people like garbage they brainwash their people into thinking they are pretty much subhuman and worthless to their leader! Their Dictator loves being thought of as a god like figure and doesn't give twos s**ts about his people!
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30 Oct 2013, 3:53 pm
Sorry about that! Ill be sure to stay on topic I was just playing anyway!
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30 Oct 2013, 3:53 pm
Again though, in Ireland the vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland and a large majority of people in Northern Ireland have given up the feelings of victimhood. The constitutional status is like it is because the people of the island wish it to be so. The really indefensible stuff that Britain did (besides isolated and very serious incidents like Bloody Sunday) was long ago. Most of Ireland got its independence 90 years ago, and the sectarian Northern Ireland parliament was abolished over 40 years ago.
No-one, apart from those on the far-left anti-democratic fringes of Irish society, has a violent grievance against Britain. Even a lot of people who were seriously anti-British rule have learnt to understand that Northern Ireland is in the UK by the consent of its people and that it requires the consent of the people of NI to change that status.
30 Oct 2013, 4:00 pm
Again though, in Ireland the vast majority of people in the Republic of Ireland and a large majority of people in Northern Ireland have given up the feelings of victimhood. The constitutional status is like it is because the people of the island wish it to be so. The really indefensible stuff that Britain did (besides isolated and very serious incidents like Bloody Sunday) was long ago. Most of Ireland got its independence 90 years ago, and the sectarian Northern Ireland parliament was abolished over 40 years ago.
No-one, apart from those on the far-left anti-democratic fringes of Irish society, has a violent grievance against Britain. Even a lot of people who were seriously anti-British rule have learnt to understand that Northern Ireland is in the UK by the consent of its people and that it requires the consent of the people of NI to change that status.
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30 Oct 2013, 4:04 pm
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thomas81
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30 Oct 2013, 4:18 pm
Now theres a historical revision if i've ever seen one. Northern Ireland NEVER came into existance through a democratic referendum. The partition, was drawn up, strategically, many miles away in London to ensure that the Unionist veto would persist in 6 counties. The Ulster Covenant, which consolidated the partition was only signed by 14 thousand individuals.
It took much longer to abolish the sectarian police . I recall the RUC wasn't disbanded till 2001. Also there are ongoing issues with Orangemen being allowed into contentious areas to play sectarian songs outside RC churches. That is a MASSIVE sticking point. So I don't buy your argument that Northern Irish people have abandoned their feelings of victimhood.
If by that you mean the Sinn Fein leadership. they are increasingly losing respect in the nationalist community. Gerry Adams and McGuinness are increasingly seen as traitors and career politicians while parties like éirígí and the 32 county sovereignty movement have made inroads.
Belfast, 5 years ago
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sY5pciaZgOM#t=253[/youtube]
01 Nov 2013, 1:01 pm
What you say about Northern Ireland being founded is historically true. It was a sham of a state, Lloyd George's 'kindest cut'. If the support of the Ulster Unionists as a political ally for any prospective government wasn't important in parliament, would Northern Ireland ever have happened? Probably not.
Yet, what Tequila says is true - though it's easy making a noble constitutional concession once the state was set up the way it was. From memory, I think it was a 65-35% split in religion in the 1920s.
The only real debate I think was how many counties were going to be lumped in - 4, 6 or 9? Obviously, with 9 the Unionists would not have had a majority. Fermanagh and Tyrone should not have been involved in Northern Ireland - but the Unionists had a big enough majority to get away with it.
What you say about the RUC - I think you need to understand, actually many people on both sides of the community hated them. They weren't very good at actual policing - however, if you look at the situation in which they operated, some understanding of why this was can be given. It's very hard being a neutral/effective force if you're always under attack, and seeing your colleagues in body bags. That's not excusing anything negative they did. I have very little positive to say about them. Years ago, they had no qualms over intimidating family members over something that they've only recently apologised for. And boy, did we have to fight them tooth and nail to get that apology.
You use some examples of the parades, and so on. I think you need to realise, if you don't already, that actually both communities have their grievances. I'm tired of hearing how one community is oppressed and downtrodden. That certainly was the case in the 60s and 70s. An awful lot of funding was put into community projects in the 90s and onwards - funding that predominantly benefited Nationalist communities. Cross community projects tended to be dominated by Nationalists (partly due to intransigent Unionists not playing ball, admittedly). Some of this was long overdue, but at times it did seem that Protestants were negatively discriminated against.
Equality should be just that.
When it came to talking about politics, a Nationalist/Republican, I always found, could debate their point with articulation and historical knowledge. A 'typical' Unionist would go on about God and Ulster and spout rhetoric. I always thought this was unfair - it was as if one side stifled itself.
A referrendum would be a good idea - it would show that most people in Northern Ireland, for right or wrong reasons, want to stay as part of the UK at the moment.
I know it's off topic, and I do apologise for that.
I look forward to the day when both communities can march down roads together on St Patricks Day and the 12th July, and come together as a people. Yes, you're right, I need some reality pills...
thomas81
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01 Nov 2013, 4:23 pm
...
the main difference is that the RUC weren't routinely harassing protestant-unionist homes, interning protestant-unionists without trial or charge or colluding with Republican paramilitaries to eliminate individuals who represented a threat or an embarrassment to the state.
Now, I don't know what age you are, which community you're from (going from your post content I assume you're a prod) or if you're even old enough to remember the fighting, but I say that as someone who grew up in a unionist background during the peak of the troubles. We may have suffered the same economic poverty as our counterparts across the peaceline, but what we did have was political privilege. I didn't understand that at the time but I do now with the hindsight of maturity and education.
01 Nov 2013, 6:29 pm
I keep saying this, but Lord Carson's advice to the Unionists after NI was born was prophetic. To say that Unionist politicians didn't do themselves any favours with regard to Catholics is putting it milsly. However, it clearly wasn't quite as wicked as some Republicans would like to claim. The standard of living for Catholics in NI was still better than in IFS/ROI.
Basically, I think NI would have been better for Catholics had it been treated like any other part of the UK post-1921.
And Thomas? In NI terms, you've gone from one extreme to the other.in politics. You have a view of political matters that is comically black and white. Life isn't like that.
In Northern Irish terms I would be a unionist. However, I find all the local parties alienating. As,much as I like NI, it's still really quite parochial compared to England. I like my flute bands, but I also like Irish music (sean nos breaks my heart). Northern Ireland is what its citizens want it to be. It's up to you, not Britain or Ireland. Blaming others for your problems will keep you in an ugly state.
An Orange parade,- so what?
The national flag is the flag of NI, but otherwise,- so what? You ain't going to convince anyone by removing it. Same with the Tricolour.
Proposals to allow people resident in Ni to vote for the Dail or the Tainaste,- so what?
These things fade away once you realise that most people are not horrible.
Very hardline republicans are the scum of the Earth. Same with very hardline loyalists. Anyone that uses violence liie they do is scum. Leave them to rot if you can.
thomas81
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01 Nov 2013, 6:54 pm
An Orange parade,- so what?
So what-
It is the deliberate targeting of contentious areas, in spite of parades commission ruling, specifically outside RC chapels with lambegs drumming at full volume to the chorus of "We're up to our knees in fenian blood!"
Have you any idea how repugnant and venomous Orange parades can be?
01 Nov 2013, 7:15 pm
eg. Pat Finucane. It happened, though. Anyone who was a threat, I agree - and that tended to be the nationalists/republicans, but not always. Not all Protestant-Unionists didn't see the dirty side of the force.
I'm not a prod. I don't fall into the typical one-or-other box, which is very unusual for the time and area I grew up in. I remember the fighting, yeah. Bit different west of the Bann, but it was still there.
The political privilege was there, yes. Quite frankly, what did it actually serve the working classes on either side, really? They ended up as pawns in a wider game - typical of most societies.
crackedpleasures
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04 Nov 2013, 8:13 pm
Nonsense. The South is a democracy, albeit a relatively new one. They have very strong national security laws there that do sometimes go overboard but there is no comparison to the North that can be made with a straight face..
Watch the documentary "Welcome to North Korea" by Tetteroo. The images don"t lie. South Korea indeed built a separation wall similar to the former Iron Curtain or the "security fence" Israel is building around the West Bank.
BS. In Saudi Arabia you get fed. They are both awful places but Saudi Arabia does pretty well on the human development index. Not sure what the point of talking about which is the worst can accomplish... seems pointless.
It is choosing between cholera and aids, that's for sure. But in North Korea religion is not determining life, in Saudi you are in a theocracy whose extent of dictatorship is even worse than the north. By this I am not defending N Korea. If I had the choice between Saudi or North Korea, I'd feel that regardless what I choose I'm not going to survive it long term.
It is not a pleasant place, it is a quite horrible place. There are not really traffic jams, one of my minders went so far as to say that the reason they have low traffic is because they structure their work days so that people finish at different times, that way they have 'solved' the problem of peak hour. Even during the Arirang Mass Games, when the stadium emptied, when traffic was at its busiest we did not stop for more than a minute. The only traffic jams I know of are when accidents happen. I had the unfortunate experience of seeing what passes for emergency services respond to a motorcycle that have been hit by a car in a tunnel (you cannot see in the tunnels because there is no electricity). There was one guy, who was a custodian of a pedestrian underpass, which had no electricity. He lived down there with a mat and a bag of rice for a pillow, no heat and no power and even during the daytime, there was no light because he was underground.
There certainly are more cars on the road than they used to be but that is mostly due to the fact that they have become a mecca for stolen cars. On the trip to Nampo we passed a car about once ever 30 minutes, its the transit line to their biggest port. I have friends who live there and teach North Koreans in China, I have other friends who work at PUST some get used to it, most do not. One of mates was on his tenth time in Pyongyang, he was drunk every night. We went to a visit a kindergarten, they put the children (who were all under 5) on display playing instruments. They were very talented but totally unhappy, half of our exchange group cried when they tried to smile at us after and it was clear they didn't want to be there. One of my minders asked if we want to have our pictures taken with them and smile about how good they were. I bowed to the kids, something I refused to do to the entire time I was in the country, because they were the only ones who deserved it. In short the whole thing was an exercise in trauma. But you seem to have a morbid fascination with the country, which more than a little bit weirds me out. I went because it was my job as an academic to go people who want to go and see how the crazy country gets along are not the sort who should go. If you are interested send me a PM and I will send you a copy of my journal and save you the trip..
That PM sounds interesting.
Actually I was surprised when the expat I talked to mentioned traffic jams, I never saw such images. A humanitary aid worker responsible for food distribution during 3 years on duty in North Korea said he never saw actual hunger, but a very dramatic shortage of some types of food, leading to very unbalanced and unhealthy diets. But no real food shortage overall.
I guess, like an American journalist recently stated, as long as North Korea chooses to isolate itself from the world and keep borders closed, it is impossible to verify all news and to see clear when contradicting info reaches the outside world. We will probably find out the truth retrospectively only once the country has decided to pick up relations with foreign countries and reduce its extreme self-imposed isolationism.
Not for visitors, you get waved through pretty quickly. There is next to no intercity trade, firstly there are no decent roads and then you need permission to move from region to region. There was quite a line to enter Pyongyang at one point but that was due to the fact that the checkpoints are pretty small and don't move that fast.
I was actually told tourists are more free to move around (with their guides) than people living on the countryside who have to request permits to visit Pyongyang. Needing a visa for internal travelling to your own capital, it sounds insane. But then Pyongyang was made to impress, and only people the Party likes are welcome to live there. Their standard of life is higher than elsewhere in the country, even though it's still low of course compared with neighbouring countries' cities.
Yes, it is called the Moranbong Band and they play their concerts on tv everywhere you go.
No, it's a brand new band. Moranbong have been around much longer, or am I confusing with another band?
Anyway, every North Korean musician wishing to achieve some recognition is obliged to praise the Kim family and Juche in their songs. If not doing that, the song won't even be played.
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