feminism: the radical concept that women are people.

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LKL
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08 Dec 2013, 4:38 am

Your problem, 91, is that you're a decent human being who respects women as human beings. :wink:
Some guys (think 'Nice Guys(TM)')see chivalry as an alternative to actual respect, as opposed to an expression of it.



MCalavera
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08 Dec 2013, 6:01 am

Yet it seems many women believe in the "men from Mars, women from Venus" concept.

No gender has it better than the other in these matters as far as I have seen.



GGPViper
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08 Dec 2013, 7:56 am

Well, I'm not a feminist.

... So apparently, I do not believe that women are people.

I'm against Affirmative Action as well, so I must also be a racist.

I'm not religious either, by the way, so I cannot be trusted.

Coincidently, I'm not on Facebook either, so I must be a Psychopath.

And finally, I don't listen to music by Justin Bieber, which means that I am a good person.

Thus, misogynistic, racist and untrustworthy psychopaths are good people.



Ganondox
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08 Dec 2013, 8:03 am

MCalavera wrote:
Yet it seems many women believe in the "men from Mars, women from Venus" concept.

No gender has it better than the other in these matters as far as I have seen.


Again, the difference is men aren't being heavily subjected to these views.


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ArrantPariah
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08 Dec 2013, 8:42 am

LKL wrote:
@AP: it's funny because it's describing the experiences that a lot of women have in their relationships with men, but ascribing a totally different explanation for it than the ones that are usually used (i.e., being stared at on the street because of deformity vs. being stared at on the street for 'attractiveness,' being denied jobs or equal pay, etc). It might not be as funny to you because you haven't experienced those things and wondered why they're happening to you.


Okay. Good point.

But, we still regard you as people. The two main subsets of people are men and women.

Now, be a good girl and go fix me a sandwich, will you? :wink:



appletheclown
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08 Dec 2013, 9:09 am

Chivalry vs. Chauvinism, what a fight! There is a difference, LKL. You speak of chauvinism (treating women as inferior), not chivalry. If I was Chauvinistic, I would hold the door open for women because I believe they don't deserve to touch the door, or they are too dumb to do it themselves. If I was Chivalrous, I would hold the door open, beat up men who rob old ladies, and keep other men's hands off our wives and daughters, because that is what I am supposed to do.


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MCalavera
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08 Dec 2013, 9:13 am

LKL wrote:
Your problem, 91, is that you're a decent human being who respects women as human beings. :wink:
Some guys (think 'Nice Guys(TM)')see chivalry as an alternative to actual respect, as opposed to an expression of it.


But wasn't your argument that it's sexist to treat women in such a special manner (because, after all, it is still a way of treating women as "other")? It looks to me like you've now changed your argument a bit.



Magneto
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08 Dec 2013, 9:25 am

Sigh. As Martin Luther King's brother Rodney King said, can't we all just get along?

Not being a man, nor raised as a woman, I can't speak for anyone but myself - but even if those facts were different, I still wouldn't be able to speak for anyone other than myself. Still, I can say that I haven't really heard anyone treat women as being less than men. Now transwomen, yes.

What I have heard is this whole "complementarianism" spiel, in which men are inherently good at some things and women inherently good at others, and they can't be good at what the opposite sex is supposed to be good at. But I've heard that from people of both sexes.

It really is stupid. Personally, I try to treat people the same regardless of gender. But it's a bit distracting if they're very pretty...



ArrantPariah
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08 Dec 2013, 10:40 am

MCalavera wrote:
LKL wrote:
Your problem, 91, is that you're a decent human being who respects women as human beings. :wink:
Some guys (think 'Nice Guys(TM)')see chivalry as an alternative to actual respect, as opposed to an expression of it.


But wasn't your argument that it's sexist to treat women in such a special manner (because, after all, it is still a way of treating women as "other")? It looks to me like you've now changed your argument a bit.


Feminists are still women, whether they wish to admit it or not.



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08 Dec 2013, 11:30 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
LKL wrote:
Your problem, 91, is that you're a decent human being who respects women as human beings. :wink:
Some guys (think 'Nice Guys(TM)')see chivalry as an alternative to actual respect, as opposed to an expression of it.


But wasn't your argument that it's sexist to treat women in such a special manner (because, after all, it is still a way of treating women as "other")? It looks to me like you've now changed your argument a bit.


Feminists are still women, whether they wish to admit it or not.


WTF are you talking about?

I'm a woman and that's why feminism matters to me. I'm probably not very good at being a woman according to people like you but that's what I'm fighting against. I want to be myself, which happens to include being female, and not be judged negatively for not doing the extra stuff that people try to stick on me for having been born a certain sex.

I get that you were making a sexist joke about LKL allegedly changing her argument, and that being a supposedly female trait - but the bit about feminists not admitting they're women just sounded wrong.


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puddingmouse
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08 Dec 2013, 11:34 am

Magneto wrote:
Still, I can say that I haven't really heard anyone treat women as being less than men.


I have quite a lot, unfortunately.


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Mamselle
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08 Dec 2013, 11:37 am

I'm a Jewish female. There are still Orthodox Jewish males who include in their morning prayers something about thanking God they weren't born female. That tells me all I need to know about whether feminism is still relevant in today's world. It is.

As for opening doors, ALL OF US who are able-bodied should be opening doors for each other regardless of gender. It is just a kind and thoughtful thing to do for another person, and there can NEVER be too much kindness or thoughtfulness in the world.

I'm glad that I taught my daughters and my son that traditional beliefs about sex roles were rooted more in patriarchal superstition than common sense.



MCalavera
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08 Dec 2013, 11:45 am

Sounds more like a problem with religion in this case. Some religions also express prejudice against homosexuals as well.



adifferentname
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08 Dec 2013, 12:17 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Sounds more like a problem with religion in this case. Some religions also express prejudice against homosexuals as well.


And, indeed, everyone who doesn't share their specific religious views.



ArrantPariah
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08 Dec 2013, 1:12 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
WTF are you talking about?

I'm a woman and that's why feminism matters to me. I'm probably not very good at being a woman according to people like you but that's what I'm fighting against. I want to be myself, which happens to include being female, and not be judged negatively for not doing the extra stuff that people try to stick on me for having been born a certain sex.

I get that you were making a sexist joke about LKL allegedly changing her argument, and that being a supposedly female trait - but the bit about feminists not admitting they're women just sounded wrong.


Feminists are so cute when they get riled. :wink:



The_Walrus
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08 Dec 2013, 4:40 pm

LKL wrote:
Amazingly, a lot of these guys really think that they 'understand women;' often, they think that they understand women better than women understand themselves.

This isn't exclusively a male on female problem. Most people think that, if their friends were icebergs, they would see about 60% of them, whereas they personally are only 10% visible.

Excellent article though.