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Jesus Was Liberal, Sadducees and Pharisees, Conservatives

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MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 11:39 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
There's a difference between old-fashioned liberalism and the modern-day Liberal Left (note the capitals). The Pharisees were hypocrites who cared more about maintaining their own power than being servants of the people. The problem with the LL crowd is that their core worldview demands a complete denial of objective morality across the board, where no distinction is accepted as any more right or wrong than another...except of course, their own.

Jesus was a revolutionary, to be sure...but He understood the facts of certain things needing to remain as they were. He refused to personally condemn the woman the Sanhedrin caught in the act of adultery, but also told her to leave her life of sin. The main philosophy of the Liberal Left can be best summed up like this...

1) If truth is always subjective, then morality doesn't mean anything beyond opinion.
2) If morality doesn't mean anything beyond opinion, sin doesn't exist.
3) If sin doesn't exist, there's no need for a Savior.

The entire process falls apart with the first step though, because insisting truth is always subjective is in fact an objective philosophy.

The thing is, we have no idea how lenient Jesus really was because we have nothing written by Him. We rely on what others say. He might have actually been more liberal than how He is portrayed in the KJV.
This is why Christians should think in terms of context and commit themselves to being progressive like Jesus.


How do you know anything about Jesus then?

It's possible Jesus was really what one would label now to be a conservative (if we are to go by your argument).



MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 11:40 am

Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.



sonofghandi
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24 Dec 2013, 2:02 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.


He didn't really preach hell and damnation to sinners. "Hell" is actually very rarely mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is more of an after the fact construct to keep the masses in line.


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MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 6:00 pm

sonofghandi wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.


He didn't really preach hell and damnation to sinners. "Hell" is actually very rarely mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is more of an after the fact construct to keep the masses in line.


Yeah, the apocalyptic references were bad enough. Also, hope you're willing to ditch your loved ones for him.



sonofghandi
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24 Dec 2013, 6:05 pm

MCalavera wrote:
sonofghandi wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.


He didn't really preach hell and damnation to sinners. "Hell" is actually very rarely mentioned anywhere in the Bible. It is more of an after the fact construct to keep the masses in line.


Yeah, the apocalyptic references were bad enough. Also, hope you're willing to ditch your loved ones for him.


Not really sure what you are saying here . . .


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MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 6:07 pm

Mark 8:34-38
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Very liberal man that Jesus was.



buffinator
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24 Dec 2013, 7:40 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Mark 8:34-38
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Very liberal man that Jesus was.


Conservatives believe that damnation begins in life, and do not believe in forgiveness. I wold not classify Jesus as a social liberal, but neither did he promote instituting hell on earth for those who strayed from the path. The entire point being a Cristian is to make others Cristian. You do that by showing them the light and goodness of true Christians not hanging them from a tree, defaming them, or presuming to know God's final judgement and enact punishments in life as if they had that authority.


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MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 7:51 pm

Jesus didn't come for you or anyone in today's age. He came for the Jews, expecting God's judgement to occur imminently in his lifetime or soon after, wreaking havoc on the wicked and rendering the world Jewish and peaceful as a result.



buffinator
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24 Dec 2013, 8:00 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Jesus didn't come for you or anyone in today's age. He came for the Jews, expecting God's judgement to occur imminently in his lifetime or soon after, wreaking havoc on the wicked and rendering the world Jewish and peaceful as a result.


Not so, otherwise the goyem would have perished. Jesus saved everyone, regardless of lineage or belief. (assuming he saved anyone, of course)


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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24 Dec 2013, 8:33 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.

He preached redemption to the sinner through the Savior while Jews believed if you broke God's law you went to hell.



MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 8:54 pm

buffinator wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Jesus didn't come for you or anyone in today's age. He came for the Jews, expecting God's judgement to occur imminently in his lifetime or soon after, wreaking havoc on the wicked and rendering the world Jewish and peaceful as a result.


Not so, otherwise the goyem would have perished. Jesus saved everyone, regardless of lineage or belief. (assuming he saved anyone, of course)


Many of them would have ... had the end of the world occurred.

And Jesus never saved anyone. Jesus never actually predicted that he would die to save everyone. That's just the Bible authors adding stuff to their books.



MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 8:55 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
Also, a liberal doesn't typically go around preaching hell and damnation for sinners.

If anything, most of you would be quite annoyed by him if he were alive today doing the same thing he did back then.

He preached redemption to the sinner through the Savior while Jews believed if you broke God's law you went to hell.


No everything in the Bible should be attributed to him. There needs to be multiple attestation and ruling out of theological agendas first before one could confidently attribute a Bible Jesus quote to him.



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24 Dec 2013, 9:47 pm

I hate to break it to you, but Jews don't believe in an afterlife. It's not in the Torah. There are angels and they live in heaven but nothing says that human souls have anything to do with angels. The only mention of human souls going to heaven refers to judgment day i.e. god decides to destroy the world and start over again and the chosen ones ascend to heaven.


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MCalavera
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24 Dec 2013, 10:58 pm

buffinator wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but Jews don't believe in an afterlife. It's not in the Torah. There are angels and they live in heaven but nothing says that human souls have anything to do with angels. The only mention of human souls going to heaven refers to judgment day i.e. god decides to destroy the world and start over again and the chosen ones ascend to heaven.


I hate to break it to you, but I never said Jesus' kingdom was a heavenly one. That was a later addition to the Bible.



sonofghandi
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24 Dec 2013, 11:02 pm

MCalavera wrote:
Mark 8:34-38
And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel’s will save it. For what does it profit a man to gain the whole world, and forfeit his soul? For what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when He comes in the glory of His Father with the holy angels.”

Very liberal man that Jesus was.


I should have phrased that better: I'm not really sure why you directing this at me . . .


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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25 Dec 2013, 12:40 am

He wanted to save the sinners. This is well known and no one is arguing against it. This passage does not suggest he is a conservative. A conservative would not want to save the sinner. A conservative doesn't care about them.