The old say goes Hell Hath No Fury Like A Woman Scorned

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ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 9:37 am

Who_Am_I wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Why would men be guardians?.


Because.....we're the ones with the penises! :shameonyou:


Here's how things will go.

1. Woman gets attacked by an evildoer.

2. Man hits the evildoer as hard as he can. With his penis.

3. Man curls up in a ball screaming "Oh my God, my penis!"


Actually, our penis gives us an extra head to think with.



ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 9:54 am

AngelRho wrote:
You're probably right. But I think you're taking a rather one-sided view of a one-sided proverb. It's written from a man's perspective to a male audience. You're not meant to understand it the same way a man would.


Actually, within the play where this phrase first appeared:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mourn ... 2C_Scene_2

(scroll down all the way to the bottom)

Perez (the captain of the guards) is saying this to Zara (a captive queen).



GivePeaceAChance
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10 Feb 2014, 10:02 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Who_Am_I wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Why would men be guardians?.


Because.....we're the ones with the penises! :shameonyou:


Here's how things will go.

1. Woman gets attacked by an evildoer.

2. Man hits the evildoer as hard as he can. With his penis.

3. Man curls up in a ball screaming "Oh my God, my penis!"


Actually, our penis gives us an extra head to think with.


this is your actual problem, letting that one control your actions, it has zero brains and just throws you into REALLY stupid stuff

why we have war, rape and other idiotic things


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AngelRho
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10 Feb 2014, 10:36 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
You're probably right. But I think you're taking a rather one-sided view of a one-sided proverb. It's written from a man's perspective to a male audience. You're not meant to understand it the same way a man would.


Actually, within the play where this phrase first appeared:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Mourn ... 2C_Scene_2

(scroll down all the way to the bottom)

Perez (the captain of the guards) is saying this to Zara (a captive queen).

Good point…I always read it more as an aside, though, more informative to the audience than directed towards Zara.



ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 10:47 am

The play kicks off with another immortal phrase

Almeria wrote:
Musick has Charms to sooth a savage Breast,
To soften Rocks, or bend a knotted Oak.
I've read, that things inanimate have mov'd,
And, as with living Souls, have been inform'd,
By Magick Numbers and persuasive Sound.
What then am I? Am I more senseless grown
Than Trees, or Flint? O force of constant Woe!
'Tis not in Harmony to calm my Griefs.
Anselmo sleeps, and is at Peace; last Night
The silent Tomb receiv'd the good Old King;
He and his Sorrows now are safely lodg'd
Within its cold, but hospitable Bosom.
Why am not I at Peace? [Weeps.]


I wonder why she uses the term "savage breast?" Maybe she's objectifying?



LKL
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10 Feb 2014, 1:24 pm

I think that the poem was written when 'breast' had more of a connotation of 'chest,' as opposed to 'boob.' It probably means something more like a metaphorical 'savage heart.'



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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10 Feb 2014, 1:35 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
The play kicks off with another immortal phrase

Almeria wrote:
Musick has Charms to sooth a savage Breast,
To soften Rocks, or bend a knotted Oak.
I've read, that things inanimate have mov'd,
And, as with living Souls, have been inform'd,
By Magick Numbers and persuasive Sound.
What then am I? Am I more senseless grown
Than Trees, or Flint? O force of constant Woe!
'Tis not in Harmony to calm my Griefs.
Anselmo sleeps, and is at Peace; last Night
The silent Tomb receiv'd the good Old King;
He and his Sorrows now are safely lodg'd
Within its cold, but hospitable Bosom.
Why am not I at Peace? [Weeps.]


I wonder why she uses the term "savage breast?" Maybe she's objectifying?

She's been brainwashed into thinking she's some kind of savage. Maybe this play is much more subtle than you realize? All this before they had CDs and MP3s too!

Zara's a captive queen of course she is going to be pissed. A captive king would be, too. The phrase is meant to belittle her because she is a female head of state. (even though I realize it's not the same sort of state we live in now, still a state of sorts.)



ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 5:53 pm

LKL wrote:
I think that the poem was written when 'breast' had more of a connotation of 'chest,' as opposed to 'boob.' It probably means something more like a metaphorical 'savage heart.'


We do still use the term "breast" to describe the chest of a bird.



ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 6:01 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
She's been brainwashed into thinking she's some kind of savage. Maybe this play is much more subtle than you realize? All this before they had CDs and MP3s too!

Zara's a captive queen of course she is going to be pissed. A captive king would be, too. The phrase is meant to belittle her because she is a female head of state. (even though I realize it's not the same sort of state we live in now, still a state of sorts.)


Here is another interpretation

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=2662448

Quote:
It is interesting to see that Congreve puts the 'savage breast' - that is, the heart of a savage (meaning a native African, for example) - on the same level as rocks or hardened trees, and treats all three as 'inanimate'.

Thus he is saying first, that there is no soul in a savage, and secondly, that even so, music can charm the heart of a savage, because it has a magic power to move inanimate things.

It sheds a light on European attitudes of the time. The implied message is that native Africans and others are no more human than trees and rocks. Oddly enough, many people if asked the source of the saying might attribute it to Shakespeare. I doubt whether Shakespeare, a century earlier, would have entertained such a sentiment.

I've read, that things inanimate have mov'd,
And, as with living Souls, have been inform'd,
By Magick Numbers and persuasive Sound.

These lines refer to the ancient Greek myth of Orpheus, who supposedly had the power to charm animals, trees and stones with his lyre and make them move to his will. However, there was nothing in the myth to suggest that Africans or any other group of people were supposed to be on the same level. The magical power was seen in the idea that Orpheus' music could move non-human entities.


To which someone replies

Quote:
I think you may be being hard on Congreave. The earliest use of "savage" related to wild animals: OED
Quote:
1. Of an animal: wild, undomesticated, untamed. Also: of or belonging to a wild or untamed animal. In later use chiefly with connotations of ferocity, merging with sense A. 6b. [6. a. Of a natural force, appetite, disease, etc.: fierce, harsh; uncontrolled, destructive.]
α.c1250 Body & Soul (Trin. Cambr. B.14.39) 30 To..biden leuns sauage [v.r. sauuage].
c1330 Roland & Vernagu l. 92 Bifor sir charls he brouȝt Sauage bestes..Gold & siluer, & riche stones.

In Congreave's day, when the concept of a soul was accepted, the thing that animals, rocks, trees etc., had in common was that they had no soul. Hence the line "And, as with living Souls, have been inform'd,"

So, ""soothe your savage breast" is clear in its meaning (to those who have heard the idiom) but probably is closer in meaning to "soothes your inner beast" which ties in nicely (though probably coincidentally) with Egmont at #3 above.



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10 Feb 2014, 6:38 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
LKL wrote:
I think that the poem was written when 'breast' had more of a connotation of 'chest,' as opposed to 'boob.' It probably means something more like a metaphorical 'savage heart.'


We do still use the term "breast" to describe the chest of a bird.

Birds are known to chirp and some would say that's musical. Perhaps one bird would chirp to another when he's upset?



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10 Feb 2014, 6:41 pm

In Victorian times you could not say breast,you said bosom.So for dinner you had bosom of chicken.


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ArrantPariah
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10 Feb 2014, 7:02 pm

So Robin Red Breast would have been Robin Red Bosom?



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10 Feb 2014, 7:04 pm

Maybe,they even had coverings for chair and table legs because they might be provocative.


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10 Feb 2014, 7:11 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Maybe,they even had coverings for chair and table legs because they might be provocative.


Wow. They're like Feminists on steroids.



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10 Feb 2014, 7:20 pm

A leg was called a limb.I don't know what's that bad about saying leg.


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10 Feb 2014, 7:22 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
So Robin Red Breast would have been Robin Red Bosom?

Robin Red Savage Breast :twisted: