What do you think about immigration?

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Kurgan
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08 Feb 2014, 10:03 pm

Raptor wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

The colonists broke their own moral laws.Christians are not suppose to steal,yet they sure grabbed up a bunch of land that didn't belong to them.
Nobody was expecting immigrants in the Americas.So there was no plan for the arrival of the land grabbers.

The land didn't belong to anyone. The natives had no concept of land ownership.
What it all boils down to is what's done is done and it will never be undone.
I've taken no land from anyone therefor I won't be leaving.

They did indeed have a concept of land ownership (any territorial being does), and they frequently fought against other tribes for land.

LKL
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08 Feb 2014, 10:06 pm

Raptor wrote:

If I'd seen her butt ugly face on the shore of the new world I would have turned sail back to Europe.
A face only a mother coyote could love.

Cool, you're saying she's a demi-goddess? Coyote being a pretty important figure, and all.

A couple of important points wrt. Native Americans: first, there were hundreds of tribes, each with its own laws, culture, and beliefs; saying that 'Native Americans had no land ownership laws,' or that they 'had no immigration laws,' is lumping an incredibly diverse set of peoples into one pot that does not accurately represent any of them. Also, just because they, for the most part, did not have *written* laws does not mean that many of them did not have strictly enforced *codes of conduct* regarding trespassing by non-tribe-members and regarding land usage.

Raptor
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08 Feb 2014, 10:07 pm

Raptor wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

K, but just don't get all pissy when immigrants come to America looking for a better life but don't commit any of the associated atrocities that your forefathers did.

My forefathers came here well into the 19th century and settled in the northeast so they didn't run any Indians off of their homeland. I can tell that it would be pointless to explain to you why we have immigration laws. This topic has been discussed in this forum at various times before. Go hunt it up if you want to see what I had to say about it because it still stands.

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Thats all we ask.

Unless you're talking about Ireland there is no we. You'd have to be a citizen of the United States to speak of it as we.
Gives me an idea, Ireland can have all of our illegals since you have such loving feelings toward them.

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Misslizard
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08 Feb 2014, 10:13 pm

Raptor wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

Who said anything about deporting you?
Land was not owned by individual,or tribe ,but there were territories that the other tribes usually(but not always) honored.
I didn't think the Native woman was that unattractive,she's quite plump,but I don't find her features offensive.Maybe you think she is ugly because she is not white.

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Raptor
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08 Feb 2014, 10:28 pm

Kurgan wrote:

Raptor wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

They did indeed have a concept of land ownership (any territorial being does), and they frequently fought against other tribes for land.

Good, then the settlers (eventually) brought civility to the new world with the concept and law of ownership. That way I didn't have to kill the people that owned my house before me, I bought it from them all bloodless like.

LKL wrote:

Raptor wrote:

If I'd seen her butt ugly face on the shore of the new world I would have turned sail back to Europe.
A face only a mother coyote could love.

Read my reply to Kurgan.
And on top of that, if the natives hadn't been so busy fighting each other they could have formed an alliance against the settlers and run them off for at least another century or two.
BTW, I thought you said in another thread that it's pointless to argue with me.
Can't resist me, eh? :wink:

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08 Feb 2014, 10:33 pm

Misslizard wrote:

I didn't think the Native woman was that unattractive,she's quite plump, but I don't find her features offensive.

More of her to love, eh?
It wouldn't matter for me because thomas81 already has first dibs on her.

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Maybe you think she is ugly because she is not white.

Again with the racism accusations. When you can't win honestly, just throw the racism charge up there and see if it sticks.

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08 Feb 2014, 10:58 pm

^^^^I said maybe.

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LKL
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08 Feb 2014, 11:01 pm

If the shoe fits...

Jacoby
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08 Feb 2014, 11:10 pm

You can get rid of national borders if you get rid of all welfare and public services, not sure you guys are ready for that otherwise you need to manage immigration and a secure border.

lotuspuppy
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09 Feb 2014, 1:58 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

lotuspuppy wrote:

Open the borders. If you want in, you get in. You should be denied admission if you have a serious criminal record or carry some exotic disease, but otherwise come on over.

And what about it if it creates a sever lack of job opportunities and places a lot of pressure of the infrastructures inside the countries that are opening their borders? Do you think that the economic nature of the country should be altered to fit such needs? May I just say that I am all in favour of immigration as long as it does not cause serious economic harm to the citizens living there, which at the moment it does not seem to be doing. In fact, it seems to be doing the opposite.

I actually do not think job-based migration is as strong of a factor as it once was. Communication-based technology is substituting job-related movement to a huge extent. And we can never forget the biggest factor in location choice: settling where mom and dad lived.

Still, your point about a lack of job prospects is a valid one. I believe it would only be temporary, though. Sure, lots of new arrivals would compete with the natives for jobs, but these new arrivals are more than just potential rivals. They are also consumers and investors. In time, they would help the marketplace by adding their unique skills and capital to the game.

abacacus
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09 Feb 2014, 2:17 am

Immigration is neccesary and a good thing, when properly regulated and controlled. Make it too hard to get in, the people you want will go somewhere else. Make it too easy, and you end up with people that won't contribute anything to the system, or worse, become a drain upon it.

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AspieOtaku
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09 Feb 2014, 2:38 am

thomas81 wrote:

AspieOtaku wrote:

Remove the borders and let everyone freely enter the USA!

The Irony of this post response is that I am 1/8th Blackfoot Indian so it has no adverse effect on me! :twisted:

The majority of illegal Immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American states arent really Native American per se but mestizos of tribes of Central and South America primarily Aztecs Mayans and Incans. They Are invading the local tribal land as well! Pure Blood Native Americans get very offended for being mistaken as Mexicans. Just sayin.

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LKL
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09 Feb 2014, 3:15 am

A pretty significant proportion of US Americans have "some" native blood, if you go back far enough in the pedigrees. It's hard to claim that it's significant, though, if you haven't spent time on a reservation.

GivePeaceAChance
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09 Feb 2014, 7:09 am

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

I personally believe immigration to be wrong due to economic reasons

Then find out where your ancestors came from - restore the land you are currently living on to whatever indigenous population ACTUALLY had i before it was conquered (oops probably not possible most were wiped out by genocide) and go back where your people cam from.

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fibonaccispiral777
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09 Feb 2014, 7:43 am

GivePeaceAChance wrote:

fibonaccispiral777 wrote:

I personally believe immigration to be wrong due to economic reasons

What that is a ridiculous thing to say. Of course, I could not do that and many people could not do that. We have an entirely different system now that has been put into place and would be almost impossible to rejuvenate the one that existed before colonialism even existed. I was saying that, assuming we accept the system we have now, immigration could be slightly wrong for economic reasons. However if it is not, I am all for it and at the moment we are seeing that immigration brings in economic prosperity. It is not like I am against it completely. I do not understand the point of your comment when you yourself recognize we now have a system in place that cannot be undone.

Tequila
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09 Feb 2014, 7:53 am

Interesting watching the referendum results taking place today on the mass immigration initiative in Switzerland. It's neck-and-neck.

Zürich very narrowly voted no. A majority of people the French-speaking cantons polled currently are against it, a majority of the people in the German-speaking cantons are for it, and the Ticinesi are heavily for it.

It looks like it's the rural types that are for the initiative, with those in the cities against. Quite polarised.

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