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TallyMan
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30 Mar 2014, 3:05 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Rainbows are caused by the refraction of light through rain drops, splitting the white light into its component colours. Rainbows aren't created by a god, unicorns or my little pony.
And who do you think created light and water? Science has already proven the universe isn't eternal, and you can't have natural laws without nature itself.


Nobody created light or water. Hydrogen is a basic element formed shortly after the big bang consisting of one proton and one electron. Oxygen is formed during the nuclear fires of stars and propelled into the universe along with all other elements when stars die and go supernova. The compound water is formed from hydrogen and oxygen fusing together. Visible light is just a narrow range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye typically produced by the transition of electrons from higher to lower energy levels within atoms. Neither light nor water is made by a magical sky fairy.

The universe began around 13.8 billion years ago as a consequence of the big bang, so what? Your final statement is meaningless.


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TheBicyclingGuitarist
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30 Mar 2014, 3:16 pm

Moviefan2k4, your ignorance and misunderstanding of the actual scientific evidence concerning the Biblical flood is amazing.

Your sources have LIED to you and you are gullible enough to swallow their lies. Basically, every argument you are putting up has already been thoroughly debunked.

Go ahead and wallow in your ignorance and go ahead continuing to spread misinformation and lies about this. I know I am not the only one on this forum who gets tired of continually pointing out how WRONG you are about so many things. The difference between your opinion and mine is that mine is supported by much evidence and not falsified by any while yours is falsified by much evidence and not supported by any. That is a rather big difference, don't you think?

Most people, given the choice of two contrary opinions where the evidence is so overwhelmingly one-sided would have no difficulty choosing which one is more likely to be true.


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simon_says
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30 Mar 2014, 3:42 pm

Quote:
And who do you think created light and water? Science has already proven the universe isn't eternal, and you can't have natural laws without nature itself.


You are free to say that but that doesn't make it true.

We know this branch of the universe wasn't eternal into the past but if this universe is just one branch of a multiverse, as most inflationary models predict, then we have another issue to deal with. Whether the multiverse is eternal backwards and forwards or whether there are even higher level constructs. The news about the new evidence for inflation a few weeks ago also gave a boost to the prospects for a multiverse. There is no certainty yet but I'm comfortable living with that.



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30 Mar 2014, 3:45 pm

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
ModusPonens wrote:
Can God create a rock so heavy that He can't lift?
No, because He can manipulate anything He creates. He has the power to make us all slaves for eternity, but He loves us too much to use that power.

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That analogy sucks. If I genetically engineered completely new beings, I would have to be a complete psycho if I allowed them to starve; if I also invented diseases to kill my engineered creations; and if I made a few rules for them to follow and, as punishment for their non-compliance, I would torture them and burn them as long as they lived. I could go on, but I think you get the point.
First off, let's point out the obvious: God's not you, me, or anyone else. He's a being unto Himself, answerable to no one aside from promises He's already given. God does not wish for any to suffer, but we do because both we and this world are no longer in the state that God created us. So many atheists ask why God would make humans evil, and the answer is, "He didn't; we chose it." They then say that God is evil because He gave humans free will, but the only other option is eternal slavery. See, lots of folks think freedom equals a total absence of rules or accountability, but they're wrong. Like anything else on this Earth, human freedom can be abused...and when that happens, terrible tragedies occur. I'm not saying we're the sole cause of all the world's evil, but we are a large part of it. Another source is the planet itself no longer being as God first made it, either; Scripture says it cries out like a mother in birth pangs, eager for a release from pain.

From a purely scientific standpoint, imagine what a global flood would do. Millions of people, animals, and objects would be crushed almost instantly by the weight of water and dirt, which would then increase the temperature around said locations, causing fossilization in a very fast timespan. The weight also would crack tectonic plates, causing them to shift and buckle against each other. Huge areas of land would be eroded like crazy, forming large trenches and spillways. Does any of that sound familiar? ;)

TallyMan wrote:
Rainbows are caused by the refraction of light through rain drops, splitting the white light into its component colours. Rainbows aren't created by a god, unicorns or my little pony.
And who do you think created light and water? Science has already proven the universe isn't eternal, and you can't have natural laws without nature itself.

trollcatman wrote:
There is not enough water to flood the earth completely, not by far.
Actually, if you flatten down the mountains and raise up the basins, all the water in the oceans right now would cover the planet to a depth of 2 miles at any given point. One mistake many disbelievers in the Flood make is accepting uniformitarianism, a.k.a. "the way things work has always remained the same." We can;t know that for sure, because none of us alive today were there.


Well, a human cannot torture and murder but the supreme all-loving being of the universe can. Well, thank you for holding me to a higher moral standard than god. I apreciate the compliment to me. It doesn't look good on you though, but hey...



techstepgenr8tion
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30 Mar 2014, 4:34 pm

A lot of NDE'ers claim that when they leave their bodies, even if watching domestic abuse continuing to rack up on their dying bodies, they feel cozy and even naively bubbly like "Wow, that was a fun ride!".

That's one of the things that used to disturb me a lot, ie. that any questions that we had about the morality of this experiment or even taking our own pain, thinking of people who've suffered things we couldn't imagine (add the standards Hitler/Stalin/Mao/the Mongols), multiply all of that by billions of lives on the headcount and we'd still be hug-bombed silly by the cosmic energy to the point that it'd almost resemble a form of instant drugging or brain-washing by way of euphoria. To me that almost seemed as wrong as the story of throwing 80-90% of souls eternally in the furnace for spotty reasoning. Either "I'll do what I want and you'll burn if you don't follow me" or "I'll overdose you with love till you can't remember" seemed like an utter violation of individual autonomy.

Anymore I get the impression that (assuming the continuity of consciousness) its significantly more complex logic AND event structure than what we can keep in front of us on the examining table, that the nature of pain and suffering in the world is far more mathematical, and that it's being worked out by our collective choices century by century, and that every time we come down and get hit with a wall of affliction its due to the weighted average of either a) things we've done to others b) aspects of our energy grid that we haven't perfected or c) both.

One of the hardest things in theism is finding a satisfactory answer as to "If this is the case, what am I here to do?" or simply "What's my necessity?". As an atheist if an answer can't be arrived at on that level one can shrug their shoulders and just go for plan b - palliation. It's difficult to do that as a theist just because if you're thrown out to the palliation point the question of "Why am I here?" tends to just burn at you all the more.

In theory if God could solve all problems there's a signal that God specifically chose unsolved problems for the development of It's individual meditations or smaller selves (ie. us) to solve. The only clue I can come up with that suggests how all this could shake out - its the suggestion that we're immortal, always have been, always will be, and that this really is in comparison such an infinitely small quantity of time that it's rendered utterly irrelevant on the eternal scale. Clearly our being here is relevant and enough is invested in our continuing to be here but I can't even imagine how eternal beings would quantify/qualify 'this', our experience on Earth. That's where my own understanding ends up getting sent out into theory and beyond my own ability to examine. This world sees enough energetic phenomena to make several mountain chains under the rug we try to throw over it, however very few of those phenomena really give us the answers we really wish we had.



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30 Mar 2014, 5:29 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
To answer your question about the Flood, God promised Noah after it was over that He would never again cover the whole Earth with water. The rainbow seen after storms and such was a sign of that promise, and to this day, no flood has ever covered the entire globe again. I'd say that's a pretty impressive track record for a promise.


There is not enough water to flood the earth completely, not by far. How about Odin's promise?

Image


All Praise Odin. Exiler of the ice Giants. LOL!



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30 Mar 2014, 5:30 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
To answer your question about the Flood, God promised Noah after it was over that He would never again cover the whole Earth with water. The rainbow seen after storms and such was a sign of that promise, and to this day, no flood has ever covered the entire globe again. I'd say that's a pretty impressive track record for a promise.


Rainbows are caused by the refraction of light through rain drops, splitting the white light into its component colours. Rainbows aren't created by a god, unicorns or my little pony.


Slight correction. Nyan cat creates rainbows. She poops them out of her butt while she flies.



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30 Mar 2014, 8:33 pm

Flood waters covered the highest mountains? Does that include Mt. Everest? Let's see. Everest is 29,029 ft above sea level. Climbers of the mountain routinely use supplemental oxygen, and the cold is intense. Pleural edema is a serious risk. Are you seriously suggesting the the Ark floated above 29,000 feet?
Wooden ships are notoriously leaky even with meticulous sealing. Did Noah have effective pumps?
Were did all the water come from? A water column suspended in the atmosphere is not possible. To suspend so much water would require a high atmospheric pressure. Such a pressure would actually make oxygen poisonous to all living creatures.
Fountains from the deep? Where? At what depth? Water less than a mile down is heating to the boiling point. Noah and family would have been parboiled.
The entire flood myth is either an incredible series of miracles or never happened. Which is the simpler scenario: a huge amount of miracles or the flood is only a fanciful story? Noah's flood cannot be considered a historical event because it contains unverifieable supernatural events. History has to be objective in order to be valid.
Science has flatly contradicted a global flood. Which will I believe? Science or a fanciful book that features a talking snake, magic trees, a talking donkey, giants, man eating fishes, and meals provided by birds? I go with science.



simon_says
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30 Mar 2014, 9:12 pm

No, no, no. He's not saying magical waters appeared. That would be silly. He's saying the ground was magically leveled, So all the sea floors came up and the mountains went down. Far more reasonable.

On a serious note the guy can believe what he wants but if he has to believe it I think he's better off just saying, "a miracle happened and I can't explain it" rather than trying to repeat the word salad of creationists who really don't explain things anyway.



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31 Mar 2014, 2:38 am

Moviefan2k4 wrote:
We can't know that for sure, because none of us alive today were there.


I wish you (and Ken Ham, alike) would understand how easily that arguement could go both ways :?


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31 Mar 2014, 2:47 am

TallyMan wrote:
Moviefan2k4 wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Rainbows are caused by the refraction of light through rain drops, splitting the white light into its component colours. Rainbows aren't created by a god, unicorns or my little pony.
And who do you think created light and water? Science has already proven the universe isn't eternal, and you can't have natural laws without nature itself.


Nobody created light or water. Hydrogen is a basic element formed shortly after the big bang consisting of one proton and one electron. Oxygen is formed during the nuclear fires of stars and propelled into the universe along with all other elements when stars die and go supernova. The compound water is formed from hydrogen and oxygen fusing together. Visible light is just a narrow range of electromagnetic radiation that is visible to the human eye typically produced by the transition of electrons from higher to lower energy levels within atoms. Neither light nor water is made by a magical sky fairy.

The universe began around 13.8 billion years ago as a consequence of the big bang, so what? Your final statement is meaningless.
Amen! And quoting the bible wont get you anywhere and the reason why there are still monkies is simple some species are successful enough they do not need to evolve while small portions did! Creationism debunked again and again! Where is god? provide me physical proof and not out of that book of fairy tales you call the bible! Where is he? Thats right hes not real! HAHAHAHAH!!
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9izVu_TtAE[/youtube]


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31 Mar 2014, 2:50 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEK6WtHxNfw[/youtube]


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31 Mar 2014, 2:52 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L7VTdzuY7Y[/youtube]


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31 Mar 2014, 2:57 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQFUpOOINd8[/youtube]There is no god there never will be there are no unicorns or skyfairies or magic or my little pony in real life this is reality! Santa clause isnt real neither is the easter bunny nor the sandman or jack frost or the tooth fairy!


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31 Mar 2014, 3:01 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCo6BVPGDh0[/youtube] God creats the world but didnt know it was round! Epic fail!! ! :lol:


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