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binaryodes
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30 Apr 2014, 3:19 pm

Is it process or quantity. Is it an additive phenomenon or is it defined by a process or system which can expand in every dimension infinitely. Is a deity infinite or timeless is there a difference


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TallyMan
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30 Apr 2014, 3:21 pm

I'd say infinity is merely an abstract mathematical concept. There are also several different types of infinity in mathematics. As to whether infinity is relevant in the real world, I doubt it.


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binaryodes
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30 Apr 2014, 3:41 pm

Spoken like a true meatbrain :D we cant comprehend infinity but finitude means that you have to posit a first cause for the univerfse. I have no problem with this at all but I dont believe that that's the aim of proponents of the idea that infinity is merely theoretical


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TallyMan
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30 Apr 2014, 3:45 pm

Why is "infinity" relevant to the universe's first cause?


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binaryodes
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30 Apr 2014, 4:03 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Why is "infinity" relevant to the universe's first cause?



If the universe is finite the argument is that something outside of time must have set a process in motion that brought it into existence. Even spontaneous generation still raises the question of what created the vacuum within which that occurred. The solution is to posit a mind outside of the system. This first cause has to be posited to avoid the inevitable infinite regress of causes for the universe. Its a paradox of sorts. A finite universe must have been brought into being by something which in turn... ad infinitum.


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30 Apr 2014, 4:20 pm

Infinity is an approximation. There's a maximum number to pretty much anything (maximum velocity, maximum temperature and so on). At the lowest level ("the theory of everything"), everything in the universe (time, space, energy, etc) might even be discrete.


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TallyMan
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30 Apr 2014, 4:24 pm

binaryodes wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Why is "infinity" relevant to the universe's first cause?



If the universe is finite the argument is that something outside of time must have set a process in motion that brought it into existence. Even spontaneous generation still raises the question of what created the vacuum within which that occurred. The solution is to posit a mind outside of the system. This first cause has to be posited to avoid the inevitable infinite regress of causes for the universe. Its a paradox of sorts. A finite universe must have been brought into being by something which in turn... ad infinitum.


You have invented a concept of a "mind outside the system" from nowhere. What caused the mind and what caused the thing that caused the mind. Your argument is equally useless as the one it posits to dismiss.


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30 Apr 2014, 4:27 pm

'Infinity' would seem to be completely an idea in human imagination ...

- computer programs sometimes end up in an "infinite loop" , however, given infinite time, then the computer would malfunction, and the loop would stop.

- the number '8' forms a infinite pattern but without a perpetual motion machine, then nothing can "go forever" on such an infinite pattern

- 'infinity' is a very important concept in probability theory , probability laws conceptualize that "given an event X happening an infinite number of times then we expect a particular probabilistic outcome" , however, events at the macro-level cannot happen an infinite number times i.e, a human cannot flip a coin an infinite number of times, so this appears to be entirely conceptual

- 'infinity' also comes up in mathematics will regards to integrating over physical space, however, there is no evidence that space can be infinite

- 'infinity' is used at the QM level based probabilistic expectancy or "infinite worlds", etc. however, there is no evidence that QM world works based on infinite probabilities or infinite worlds exist

- irrational numbers would seem to never end i.e., have an infinite number of repeating decimal numbers e.g., see my picture on left side of SQRT (2) is the finite space for the hypotenuse and never ends. However, math is made-up by humans.


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simon_says
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30 Apr 2014, 4:28 pm

There are conclusions that you can't reach without data. Cosmologists can set up models, some of which are infinite forwards and/or backwards, but without more data they can't know which sorts of models are appropriate. The answer, whatever it might be, will violate the intuitive common sense of every day life on Earth.



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30 Apr 2014, 5:46 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
'Infinity' would seem to be completely an idea in human imagination ...

- computer programs sometimes end up in an "infinite loop" , however, given infinite time, then the computer would malfunction, and the loop would stop.

- the number '8' forms a infinite pattern but without a perpetual motion machine, then nothing can "go forever" on such an infinite pattern

- 'infinity' is a very important concept in probability theory , probability laws conceptualize that "given an event X happening an infinite number of times then we expect a particular probabilistic outcome" , however, events at the macro-level cannot happen an infinite number times i.e, a human cannot flip a coin an infinite number of times, so this appears to be entirely conceptual

- 'infinity' also comes up in mathematics will regards to integrating over physical space, however, there is no evidence that space can be infinite

- 'infinity' is used at the QM level based probabilistic expectancy or "infinite worlds", etc. however, there is no evidence that QM world works based on infinite probabilities or infinite worlds exist

- irrational numbers would seem to never end i.e., have an infinite number of repeating decimal numbers e.g., see my picture on left side of SQRT (2) is the finite space for the hypotenuse and never ends. However, math is made-up by humans.


Modern operating systems have timer interrupts, which will break an infinite loop.


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30 Apr 2014, 5:53 pm

I personally wonder whether the universe will continúe to expand indefinitely, and whether time will keep going on and on and on forever


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binaryodes
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30 Apr 2014, 7:44 pm

TallyMan wrote:
binaryodes wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Why is "infinity" relevant to the universe's first cause?



If the universe is finite the argument is that something outside of time must have set a process in motion that brought it into existence. Even spontaneous generation still raises the question of what created the vacuum within which that occurred. The solution is to posit a mind outside of the system. This first cause has to be posited to avoid the inevitable infinite regress of causes for the universe. Its a paradox of sorts. A finite universe must have been brought into being by something which in turn... ad infinitum.


You have invented a concept of a "mind outside the system" from nowhere. What caused the mind and what caused the thing that caused the mind. Your argument is equally useless as the one it posits to dismiss.


The systemless mind seems to be a necessary postulation unless we wish to concede infinite causal regress. The very system of causality is a feature of the system we live within however. An intelligence outside that system would be exempt from its effect


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30 Apr 2014, 7:49 pm

It is the suspicion that one's amplifier could always be one louder.


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30 Apr 2014, 8:08 pm

Turtles all the way down.


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30 Apr 2014, 10:35 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
'Infinity' would seem to be completely an idea in human imagination ...

- computer programs sometimes end up in an "infinite loop" , however, given infinite time, then the computer would malfunction, and the loop would stop.

- the number '8' forms a infinite pattern but without a perpetual motion machine, then nothing can "go forever" on such an infinite pattern

The concept of space being something like the curved surface of a kind of hyperbubble for the lack of a better term is something that's been proposed for a long time, thus being 3-dimension bound critters we'd have no concept of how to probe the outside of that bubble and it wouldn't shock me if anyone who went far enough, if that theory is correct, ended up back in the same place or at least making a pretty close pass. With something like 11 dimensions however I tend to doubt that our particular bubble would be the limit of space but a hyperdimensional infinity is something we can hardly get our heads wrapped around. Seems quite plausible though that the good old fashion infinite up, down, north, south, east, and west however might not get us much farther in space than when we use them on our own terrestrial globe.



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01 May 2014, 1:34 am

Autinger
PostPosted: Thu May 01, 2014 12:08 pm Post subject:
Turtles all the way down.

Infinity is like this: We know the universe started 13.8 billion years ago, and we know the heat death of the universe might be in 100 trillion years. Ridiculously large numbers to be sure, but even they are small.

There is a Video on youtube called "Ten dimensions explained" that is pretty awesome.