Why would a conservative only care about the wealthy?

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Raptor
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29 Jul 2014, 10:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
A good indicator of the impact of income inequality on the middle class is the difference of the mean and the median (50th percentile) income. It is around 20% in the US and 10-20% in most countries.
This means that the most typical middle class people would only benefit from a communist system based on complete equality if it decreased the total earnings by less than 20%. Considering a social democratic system that would halve the inequality, they would only benefit if it decreased the total earnings by less than 10%. The US economy is more than 20% ahead even of most social democratic Western European counrties, let alone countries that have ever tried communism.

It is easy to say that the middle class is shrinking (everyone feels poor as they could easily spend more income), but it's not backed up by data.


Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents.

I'm not sure that's even the case as much as you think. Besides, did people's parents carelessly throw money around like people do now?

Quote:
Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

China and other Asian nations are where most consumer goods are made now. End of story.
Read again what we talked about before \/

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
/\ I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that. We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited. People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one. I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.


My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:


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Kraichgauer
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29 Jul 2014, 10:43 am

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
A good indicator of the impact of income inequality on the middle class is the difference of the mean and the median (50th percentile) income. It is around 20% in the US and 10-20% in most countries.
This means that the most typical middle class people would only benefit from a communist system based on complete equality if it decreased the total earnings by less than 20%. Considering a social democratic system that would halve the inequality, they would only benefit if it decreased the total earnings by less than 10%. The US economy is more than 20% ahead even of most social democratic Western European counrties, let alone countries that have ever tried communism.

It is easy to say that the middle class is shrinking (everyone feels poor as they could easily spend more income), but it's not backed up by data.


Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents.

I'm not sure that's even the case as much as you think. Besides, did people's parents carelessly throw money around like people do now?

Quote:
Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

China and other Asian nations are where most consumer goods are made now. End of story.
Read again what we talked about before \/

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
/\ I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that. We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited. People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one. I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.


My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:


Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.


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29 Jul 2014, 10:44 am

1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents. Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

Home ownership has been shrinking since the crisis, but it's still as high as before the unsustainable bubble. As for the general sentiment I can't comment since I'm not American.


But I am an American, and I'm right in the middle of this mess.


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1024
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29 Jul 2014, 10:59 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.

What do we* gain from high paying jobs if the prices are proportionally higher too (since we don't import from China)?
*you, when we are talking about America, but the same discussion is going on here in Europe too.


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Kraichgauer
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29 Jul 2014, 11:07 am

1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.

What do we* gain from high paying jobs if the prices are proportionally higher too (since we don't import from China)?
*you, when we are talking about America, but the same discussion is going on here in Europe too.


Well, we can buy more of that high priced crap if we get higher wages, I figure.


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29 Jul 2014, 11:09 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
A good indicator of the impact of income inequality on the middle class is the difference of the mean and the median (50th percentile) income. It is around 20% in the US and 10-20% in most countries.
This means that the most typical middle class people would only benefit from a communist system based on complete equality if it decreased the total earnings by less than 20%. Considering a social democratic system that would halve the inequality, they would only benefit if it decreased the total earnings by less than 10%. The US economy is more than 20% ahead even of most social democratic Western European counrties, let alone countries that have ever tried communism.

It is easy to say that the middle class is shrinking (everyone feels poor as they could easily spend more income), but it's not backed up by data.


Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents.

I'm not sure that's even the case as much as you think. Besides, did people's parents carelessly throw money around like people do now?

Quote:
Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

China and other Asian nations are where most consumer goods are made now. End of story.
Read again what we talked about before \/

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
/\ I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that. We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited. People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one. I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.


My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:


Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.


I used TV's only as one example.
Having all that manufacturing shift oversees like it did may not have been a good thing but it's the reality nonetheless.
Also, some foreign manufacturing entities have moved operations from across the pond into the US.
To name a few:
Toyota
Nissan
Honda
VW
Mercedes
BMW
Siemens
etc.....


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Raptor
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29 Jul 2014, 11:17 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.

What do we* gain from high paying jobs if the prices are proportionally higher too (since we don't import from China)?
*you, when we are talking about America, but the same discussion is going on here in Europe too.


Well, we can buy more of that high priced crap if we get higher wages, I figure.


It aint gonna happen.
Get real.


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1024
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29 Jul 2014, 11:27 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.

What do we* gain from high paying jobs if the prices are proportionally higher too (since we don't import from China)?
*you, when we are talking about America, but the same discussion is going on here in Europe too.


Well, we can buy more of that high priced crap if we get higher wages, I figure.

From a wage of $2000 you can buy exactly as much $20 crap as you can $10 crap from a wage of $1000.


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TheGoggles
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29 Jul 2014, 1:03 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents. Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

Home ownership has been shrinking since the crisis, but it's still as high as before the unsustainable bubble. As for the general sentiment I can't comment since I'm not American.


But I am an American, and I'm right in the middle of this mess.


In fairness, the slaves, political prisoners, and child laborers all of our most beloved companies use have it a little worse than we do.



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29 Jul 2014, 1:15 pm

1024 wrote:
A good indicator of the impact of income inequality on the middle class is the difference of the mean and the median (50th percentile) income. It is around 20% in the US and 10-20% in most countries.
This means that the most typical middle class people would only benefit from a communist system based on complete equality if it decreased the total earnings by less than 20%. Considering a social democratic system that would halve the inequality, they would only benefit if it decreased the total earnings by less than 10%. The US economy is more than 20% ahead even of most social democratic Western European counrties, let alone countries that have ever tried communism.

It is easy to say that the middle class is shrinking (everyone feels poor as they could easily spend more income), but it's not backed up by data.


If you like Wikipedia, here's something for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States#Most_recent_statistics

The middle 20% of earnersmakes between $35,000 to $55,000, which is a massive gap (the middle third is even worse, but I prefer using quintiles). The gap between the top and bottom of the middle quintile has been rapidly widening, which indicates the "middle class" is being redefined. Consider that the bottom of the middle 20% would be below the poverty line for a household of 7, yet this now constitutes "middle class" which was far from poverty thresholds no matter what the household size just a few short decades ago.

As of 2013, the widest gaps between rich and poor were in Chile, Mexico, Turkey and the United States. The bottom 20% makes $18,500 or less while the top 20% makes $92,000 or more.


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29 Jul 2014, 1:52 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:

The current system cannot sustain itself and is likely to collapse....may as well sit back, have a beer and watch the show :twisted:


If the present trend continues, then the "collapse" will likely take the form of wages not keeping up with inflation, tax increases, and benefit cuts.

The standard of living will slowly decline.


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29 Jul 2014, 2:26 pm

1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.

What do we* gain from high paying jobs if the prices are proportionally higher too (since we don't import from China)?
*you, when we are talking about America, but the same discussion is going on here in Europe too.


Well, we can buy more of that high priced crap if we get higher wages, I figure.

From a wage of $2000 you can buy exactly as much $20 crap as you can $10 crap from a wage of $1000.


But the fact is, plenty of things are twenty dollars when the hypothetical worker just makes a thousand. That's the reality of things.


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29 Jul 2014, 2:29 pm

Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
1024 wrote:
A good indicator of the impact of income inequality on the middle class is the difference of the mean and the median (50th percentile) income. It is around 20% in the US and 10-20% in most countries.
This means that the most typical middle class people would only benefit from a communist system based on complete equality if it decreased the total earnings by less than 20%. Considering a social democratic system that would halve the inequality, they would only benefit if it decreased the total earnings by less than 10%. The US economy is more than 20% ahead even of most social democratic Western European counrties, let alone countries that have ever tried communism.

It is easy to say that the middle class is shrinking (everyone feels poor as they could easily spend more income), but it's not backed up by data.


Say what you will, but most Americans do not enjoy the prosperity of their parents.

I'm not sure that's even the case as much as you think. Besides, did people's parents carelessly throw money around like people do now?

Quote:
Home ownership is rarer and rarer, and people are struggling without getting anywhere. Maybe we're ahead of other western countries economically, but that doesn't mean that many Americans haven't lost ground with no apparent hope of regaining it.

China and other Asian nations are where most consumer goods are made now. End of story.
Read again what we talked about before \/

Kraichgauer wrote:
Raptor wrote:
/\ I'd like to see most all of our stuff made in the USA but I think it's too late for that. We gotta start thinking outside the box and figure out how to make lemonade out of the lemons we've unwillingly inherited. People arent going to take well to having to pay $2000 for an American made TV all the sudden that used to cost $600 when it was made in China. When people stop buying stuff we're back to square one. I myself can keep using my TV until it falls apart but I'm not everyone.


My God, there must be a blue moon! Because I find myself agreeing with you! :lol:


Just because I agreed with you that electronic stuff are made in China and other neighboring countries hardly means that it's a good thing. I agreed that we need to think of another approach to getting Americans high paying jobs again.


I used TV's only as one example.
Having all that manufacturing shift oversees like it did may not have been a good thing but it's the reality nonetheless.
Also, some foreign manufacturing entities have moved operations from across the pond into the US.
To name a few:
Toyota
Nissan
Honda
VW
Mercedes
BMW
Siemens
etc.....


But I thought you conservatives are always harping about how we should only buy American products, and support American business. Hell, I'm a liberal, and I take pride in buying American!


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29 Jul 2014, 8:47 pm

/\ I buy American when I can find what I want that is made here. I don't dote on it, I either do it or not.


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01 Aug 2014, 12:52 pm

I wish I was born with an IQ of 165 and an extreme ability in math, then I could make myself rich and happy