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naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2014, 7:40 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Nothing said so far disproves the premise of alien "engineers" pre-determining evolution to make humans.

Hmm, I specifically recall posting this link on page 1 in this thread...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot


I presented the premise of the movie, and was challenged. I did not do the challenging.

I never said "prove me wrong".


For us to 'disprove' what you're saying we first have to know what exactly it is that you are saying.

So...

Apparently you're claiming that (a) Creationism is wrong, and (B) "Evolution" in the general sense (ie "gradual change over time as opposed to instaneous creation as portrayed in Genisis) is true. But (c) it was not naturalistic evolution-through-natural-selection as postualted by Darwin, but preprogramed evolution by space aliens ala that movie you saw.

Is that what you are claiming?



The_Walrus
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31 Jul 2014, 7:43 am

LNH, there are several problems in the hypothesis you are presenting.

Firstly, you made a big thing about paternal mitochondrial DNA not being passed on, and that this was somehow a problem. It isn't - mitochondrial DNA is passed maternally.

Secondly, yes, it would make sense for a designer to use the same genes to design the same proteins for the same function in different organisms. However, not only is this not what happens - check out the differences in haemoglobins for an obvious, and fairly dramatic, example - but the similarities between the DNA of different species are in the non-coding regions. There does not seem to be a reason for them to be similar, but they are. Common descent would explain that, because mutations accumulate from the ancestor's DNA.

Thirdly, using DNA to infer evolution does not start off by assuming evolution. It starts off by assuming the DNA of offspring resembles that of its parents, and the closer an individual's DNA resembles another shows you how closely they are related. We know this is true from testing it.



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31 Jul 2014, 9:16 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
TallyMan wrote:

It is a case of connect the dots, with millions of dots there to draw the picture and conclusions from. I'd definitely call it proof. It is either proof or an incredibly massive coincidence of unbelievable proportions. That is before even factoring in mitochondrial DNA which passes down the maternal line.


It would be an inductive argument.

I am not a biologist, however, it does not seem like they can show that similarity means ancestry. Especially when I read this ...

"In human mitochondrial genetics, there is debate over whether or not paternal mtDNA transmission is possible. Many studies hold that paternal mtDNA is never transmitted to offspring".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paternal_m ... ansmission

Without parent mitochondrial DNA being passed down, then "DNA evolution evidence" is lost, right ? All you would have left is "connecting the dots" with similarities, and assuming similarity means ancestry. A possibly very good inductive argument at best.


This is only mitochondrial DNA, not our regular human DNA. We get our mitochondria from our mothers, so they can be used to establish whether someone is a female ancestor through the female line. For male ancestors they use the Y-chromosome.
So parental DNA is passed down, it's just that our mitochondria are transmitted through females.
edit: I just saw Tallyman gave a much more comprehensive answer and I'm just being redundant 8)



Last edited by trollcatman on 31 Jul 2014, 9:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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31 Jul 2014, 9:19 am

yournamehere wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Or these guys
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFc3DDTPXXo[/youtube]


Nice.

Really though, seriously. We have people right now that are doing some pritty crazy experiments with DNA. Laws are the only things to keep them from doing more. We have horses that people evolved. They were smaller than a goat. Turned dogs into nothing more than a crap toy that can't live in the wild for more than a week without getting killed by a bald eagle. Cats too. All of which domesticated, and evolved from humans. Neanderthals gone. Evolved. Interbred into a different species. New stuff going on here and there. Small amounts, but noticable. The ways and the means are probably wrong, but it exists none the less.

I dunno why I waste time on this. Soo unimportant to tell. Look at your family tree, that should give it away right there. Your momma was a -------------. :lol:


wut? :shrug:


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LoveNotHate
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31 Jul 2014, 8:33 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Apparently you're claiming that (a) Creationism is wrong, and (B) "Evolution" in the general sense (ie "gradual change over time as opposed to instaneous creation as portrayed in Genisis) is true. But (c) it was not naturalistic evolution-through-natural-selection as postualted by Darwin, but preprogramed evolution by space aliens ala that movie you saw.

Is that what you are claiming?


I said initially it is "complete fiction". I don't see why it is not possible.

LNH wrote:


I can see why evolution science is not taken seriously.

Promethus fan: "Is the premise of Promethus possible?"

Evolutionary scientist: "No!"

Promethus fan: "Why?"

Evolutionary scientist: Waves hands, thinks for moment, "well, my theory is the only one supported by facts at hand, so it must be the right one!"

Are they so closed minded that they are unable to consider obvious possible alternatives to their ideas ? After this discussion I would presume evolutionary science is a made up religion. It sounds like a whole lot of assumptions, guesswork and "connecting the dots" to fit one's theory, and then labeling it a "proof".


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Last edited by LoveNotHate on 31 Jul 2014, 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

AspergianMutantt
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31 Jul 2014, 8:39 pm

I do not see why people find it so hard to believe we evolved on our own, even if there were aliens they too would have had to have a beginning and evolved. so if you can accept that then why not us too? and the truth of it is, unless there is actually a way for us to fold space and time, it would take us thousands of years to travel to any star, so would most likely be machines we would send that would out live us and evolve into their own races. and most any aliens out there would have to do the same.


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naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2014, 8:43 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Apparently you're claiming that (a) Creationism is wrong, and (B) "Evolution" in the general sense (ie "gradual change over time as opposed to instaneous creation as portrayed in Genisis) is true. But (c) it was not naturalistic evolution-through-natural-selection as postualted by Darwin, but preprogramed evolution by space aliens ala that movie you saw.

Is that what you are claiming?


I said initially it is "complete fiction". I don't see why it is not possible.

LNH wrote:


I can see why evolution science is not taken seriously.

Promethus fan: "Is the premise of Promethus possible?"

Evolutionary scientist: "No!"

Promethus fan: "Why?"

Evolutionary scientist: Waves hands, thinks for moment, "well, my theory is the only one supported by facts at hand, so it must be the right one!"

Are they so closed minded that they are unable to consider obvious possible alternatives to their ideas ? After this discussion I would presume evolutionary science is a made up religion. It sounds like a whole lot of assumptions, guesswork and "connecting the dots" to fit one's theory, and then labeling it a "proof".


So you ARE admitting that there is no evidence for Young Earth Creation. And you are going to say that the only alternatives are: naturalistic evolution, or alien engineered evolution that mimics the evidence for naturalistic evolution.

Have I got it right?

And you admit that "evolution is the only one supported by the facts". So if your hypothetical scientist adheres to the only thing supported by the facts then how can that be "close minded"- its the only thing supported by the facts- so what else IS there to adhere to?



Last edited by naturalplastic on 31 Jul 2014, 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

LoveNotHate
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31 Jul 2014, 8:47 pm

No. I am only saying that it appears the premise of Promethus is possible, and it is human arrogance to think otherwise.


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naturalplastic
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31 Jul 2014, 8:53 pm

But you admitted that "evolution is the only thing supported by the facts". So how is it arrogant to dismiss it. You admit there is no reason to consider it. So why should scientists consider it?



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31 Jul 2014, 9:58 pm

I don't dismiss it.

Perhaps ....

50% chance life evolved based on science theory
25% chance based on religious creationism
10% chance of alien GODs
15% chance of alternate theories

I have an open mind. Would you bet your life that evolution theory is right? I wouldn't. "Evolution theory" may be vastly different in a hundred years. Scientists in the future will say, "it was foolish but scientists a 100 years ago actually believed ....".


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01 Aug 2014, 12:11 am

^ you have an open mind, really? if you seriously give creationism a 25% chance of being correct then I would say your mind is open to just about all forms of nonsense and BS. I have not taken much notice so far in this particular thread because I am simply sick and bloody tired of repeating the same facts to the same sort of religious minds.

You lot use Faith to completely ignore the facts whenever it suits you, its pathetic. stop being so bloody stubborn and stupid, admit that genesis is nothing more than a series of stories written in a time of abject biological and geological ignorance, and it is all wrong.

Its really kind of sad, here we are with the repository of the worlds knowledge literally at our fingertips, and here you are ignoring all this wealth of information, instead preferring the opinions of people who were writing before the wheel had been invented. Educating people like you is a waste of resources.


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01 Aug 2014, 12:27 am

Occams' razor comes into play. The simplest of two competing theories is preferred. Could evolution be a secret effort by Leprechauns that perfectly mimicked natural evolution? Sure, but....



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01 Aug 2014, 2:20 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
I don't dismiss it.

Perhaps ....

50% chance life evolved based on science theory
25% chance based on religious creationism
10% chance of alien GODs
15% chance of alternate theories

I have an open mind. Would you bet your life that evolution theory is right? I wouldn't. "Evolution theory" may be vastly different in a hundred years. Scientists in the future will say, "it was foolish but scientists a 100 years ago actually believed ....".


Did you actually ever study any science? Where did you pull those stupid figures from, cos they reek of BS and ignorance.


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01 Aug 2014, 2:34 am

I'm probably wasting my time but here is a wikipedia article about evidence for common descent. Just by looking at the table of contents you see that the amount of evidence is huge, and comes from many different angles. DNA, fossils, geographical distribution of species, observed speciation, comparative anatomy, vestigial organs, the merged chromosome in humans vs other great apes, endogenous retroviruses, the list is enormous. To not believe in common descent requires someone to believe in one of the biggest conspiracy theories ever: either all the scientists are frauds and fooling the whole world, or some Creator made it look as if evolution happened to fool us.
This last aspect is just like the Church of Last Thursdayism: the world was created last thursday with us in it, and we were given fake memories to make it look as if the world was older than Last Thursday.
Anyway, here's the wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evidence_for_common_descent



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01 Aug 2014, 2:54 am

^ Excellent link, thanks for posting that. :)


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01 Aug 2014, 3:54 am

simon_says wrote:
Occams' razor comes into play. The simplest of two competing theories is preferred. Could evolution be a secret effort by Leprechauns that perfectly mimicked natural evolution? Sure, but....


Occams razor is a wonderful tool that has aided the search for knowledge. That you have needed to invoke it in an attempt to educate someone that evolution is NOT a hypothesis which needs some conjecture to make it fit experiment, and has competing hypotheses which need somewhat more complex assumptions, is a sad indictment on their desire to separate fact from fiction.. Thing is Simon, the twits who need this spelt out to them would not have any idea what the previous sentence actually says.


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