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aghogday
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11 Nov 2014, 11:34 pm

^^
I agree with this. :)


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12 Nov 2014, 5:47 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I think everyone to some extent on the planet cherry-picks, selects, and culls their pool of facts. Some try to be as objective in what they let in on what grounds or disqualify on what grounds, for people of most of the extreme persuasions its an emotional battle and emotional selection process.

IMHO there's clearly enough mud out there peer-reviewed and otherwise to keep us asking all kinds of questions about our realities anywhere from whether it's a single 1:1 universe where one possibility of each movement is available to a type III multiverse where probabilities are real animals rather than lack of data, whether we're really in a holographic estate perhaps on the 'skin' of a black hole where the data postulated to be held rather than destroyed, questions like what do the double slit and quantum eraser outcomes really mean, etc. etc.. The loopier it gets it also seems easier to ask the questions such as whether consciousness necessarily needs brain cells and if it could work on a computer why stop there, ideas like morphic fields which are just another way rephrasing platonic forms get another glance, questions like what's happening when a person drinks a healthy dose of DMT or when an experienced ceremonial magician is able to invoke an entity - where the space between internal and psychological space stops and the 'outer world' as independent starts, etc..

I really like the times we live in because we have so much data available to us that we can make some very educated decisions both in what we select to read to cover as many bases as we can but also to make sure that we're looking at the best that a particular field of knowledge has to offer - it's right at our fingertips either on Amazon or the WWW in general.

I would say that a lot of our old and misguided images of a very human, temperamental, or even capricious or philandering sky god or goddess (depending on the culture and whether there's one or many partying up in the sky or glaring down at our doings) are on their way out. These stories can be dismantled for perhaps deeper implications of what people may have been trying to describe or even encode in allegory can be evaluated so we could at least keep the wheat and discard of the chaff. If there is anything sentient higher and beyond us on what one might call the inner planes it filters through our brains and we ad lots...and lots.... of our own color to any messages it might send. A lot of human experience might suggest it's there but we have a long way to go in learning it's language.
This does indeed make a lot of sense for once.


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12 Nov 2014, 5:49 am

I guess sheps big guns were loaded with blanks and he had to retreat knowing he was outmatched and couldnt find a surefall reason on proving that a god exist in a realistic modern scientific level. I win yay *breaks out the champaign bottle*


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12 Nov 2014, 9:07 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I would say that a lot of our old and misguided images of a very human, temperamental, or even capricious or philandering sky god or goddess (depending on the culture and whether there's one or many partying up in the sky or glaring down at our doings) are on their way out. These stories can be dismantled for perhaps deeper implications of what people may have been trying to describe or even encode in allegory can be evaluated so we could at least keep the wheat and discard of the chaff. If there is anything sentient higher and beyond us on what one might call the inner planes it filters through our brains and we ad lots...and lots.... of our own color to any messages it might send. A lot of human experience might suggest it's there but we have a long way to go in learning it's language.


Along these lines I am what you could call an agnostic atheist. I am agnostic since I don't know or even think it's possible to know how exactly everything came about. We can have theories and collect good evidence for them but that's not the same as truly knowing. I am atheist since I think whatever we are thinking of when we say God/god is bound to be so wide of the mark as to not have any actual correlation with what there really is. It's easy to look back on the pantheon of gods/goddesses who were really just like immortal humans with superpowers and call that misguided. But I think that the currently accepted monotheistic God is equally misguided. His creators put a whole lot of abstraction in so he is far removed from the human qualities of the other gods. But still pretty human for all that. He's still an individual with a human agenda of accomplishing stuff and then contemplating what just got accomplished. Even the concept of "sentient" is a human one.

Whatever the actual truth is, I seriously doubt it can fit inside our brains. Biology limits us to conceptualizing in certain ways and those limits prevent us from actually knowing. The very concept of "knowing" is probably even wide of the mark. So I call myself an atheist because I don't think it's possible for humans to conceptualize the reality of what happened (is happening) and saying "God" just perpetuates the idea that we can. But also agnostic because I truly have no way of knowing.



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12 Nov 2014, 9:45 pm

Janissy wrote:
So I call myself an atheist because I don't think it's possible for humans to conceptualize the reality of what happened (is happening) and saying "God" just perpetuates the idea that we can.

Even if as a culture we truly tried to take an honest objective look at ourselves and threw all of the Darwinian games out the window that reward delusions of grandeur at the cost of objectivity - that's still making quite a big assumption that if we left the universe alone it would reciprocally respect our autonomy and leave us alone. If it's sentience could care less that we existed then yes - that would be quite possible. On the other hand if it's a voracious flirt all bets are off. It would play and tug at our sleeves more vigorously still if its purpose for our being here had nothing to do with us alienating ourselves from its embrace.



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14 Nov 2014, 5:02 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
I guess sheps big guns were loaded with blanks and he had to retreat knowing he was outmatched and couldnt find a surefall reason on proving that a god exist in a realistic modern scientific level. I win yay *breaks out the champaign bottle*
Nice try, but no. You started this thread saying that you had cold hard facts and proof that no higher being exists. After I called you out on it, you picked a book out of a library and started arguing over why it belonged in "fiction" rather than "non-fiction" where it now resides. What you are doing is nitpicking ONE religious text, not all of them as you so claim, and even this in and of itself does not make the religion itself invalid. We could debate the Bible endlessly, but here's the truth: I asked for the facts and evidence you stated you had, and you miserably failed to deliver, instead using ad-hominem attacks on one single book, completely ignoring any points I made that proved you wrong and instead moving on to the next target. Whoop-de-freakin-do.

As far as why I haven't posted for a while, I'll be honest, I was waiting to see what you'd come up with. What "facts" and "evidence" you had up your sleeve. My "big guns" may not be loaded right now, but at least my aim isn't as horrible as yours is. Here's a real challenge for you: cite these "facts" and "evidence" that there is no higher being withour any reference to religious texts. Can you do it? Can you? Because if you can't, then this whole thread you made has been in massive vain, and is the biggest failure I have seen from any aethiest to date. Remember: even indirect references to religious texts (such as the notion of praying) count as a reference. I have been waiting for a non-yawnable challenge, but quite honestly, it's time to step it up a notch. I can do this in my sleep, seriously.



AspieOtaku
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14 Nov 2014, 12:25 pm

Shep wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
I guess sheps big guns were loaded with blanks and he had to retreat knowing he was outmatched and couldnt find a surefall reason on proving that a god exist in a realistic modern scientific level. I win yay *breaks out the champaign bottle*
Nice try, but no. You started this thread saying that you had cold hard facts and proof that no higher being exists. After I called you out on it, you picked a book out of a library and started arguing over why it belonged in "fiction" rather than "non-fiction" where it now resides. What you are doing is nitpicking ONE religious text, not all of them as you so claim, and even this in and of itself does not make the religion itself invalid. We could debate the Bible endlessly, but here's the truth: I asked for the facts and evidence you stated you had, and you miserably failed to deliver, instead using ad-hominem attacks on one single book, completely ignoring any points I made that proved you wrong and instead moving on to the next target. Whoop-de-freakin-do.

As far as why I haven't posted for a while, I'll be honest, I was waiting to see what you'd come up with. What "facts" and "evidence" you had up your sleeve. My "big guns" may not be loaded right now, but at least my aim isn't as horrible as yours is. Here's a real challenge for you: cite these "facts" and "evidence" that there is no higher being withour any reference to religious texts. Can you do it? Can you? Because if you can't, then this whole thread you made has been in massive vain, and is the biggest failure I have seen from any aethiest to date. Remember: even indirect references to religious texts (such as the notion of praying) count as a reference. I have been waiting for a non-yawnable challenge, but quite honestly, it's time to step it up a notch. I can do this in my sleep, seriously.
Religious texts are fictional, just saying, I mean you could believe that the earth is on a giant turtles back swimming through space but we all know that is false.


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14 Nov 2014, 5:52 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
Religious texts are fictional
While subjective and opinionated, this statement is entirely beside the point.

AspieOtaku wrote:
just saying, I mean you could believe that the earth is on a giant turtles back swimming through space but we all know that is false.
And back to the Ad Hominem thing again.

Is this seriously all you've got? Frankly I find this latest addition to be a near-indirect admission that you can't meet my challenge. From what I can see, you're all talk but no walk, and you also don't have content to back up those massively over-reaching claims. If you want to go about saying a specific religion is wrong or incorrect, be my guest. But making threads telling us "you are wasting your time and allowing yourself to be a thrall to a made up concept" and calling us all "slave[s] to a make believe belief" then saying "science has proven it" yet **failing to deliver anything relevant** when someone calls you out on it is just sad, pitiful, and more "failed troll" than "converter of minds". :roll:

Our Debating 101 lesson for the day: before you go professing extraordinarily wild claims (such as the ones littered in this thread) to the masses, make sure you are both willing and able to defend said claims against intense scrutiny.



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14 Nov 2014, 7:00 pm

I believe:

the only way one could unequivocally deduce that God/gods/spirits, etc. exist is if the person actually experiences contact with God/gods/spirits, etc.

Mohammed had a dialogue with Allah. Therefore, the Koran. He had a revelation.

Jesus of Nazareth experienced a communion with a God as well. He was tired of all the corruption of the Jewish establishment at that time. He consulted with his God for a solution to this, I suppose. He had a revelation. He gathered together disciples. The Romans (and the Jewish establishment--not the Jews per se!) didn't like what was going on. He was executed on a cross. Hence: Christianity.

There's nothing to argue. Religion is a matter of faith. I don't happen to have any faith in the existence of a God/gods/spirits, etc.

I believe theology in all its aspects is fascinating. Creation myths are fascinating.

If someone else does, it's cool by me (unless the person tries to enforce a law which obligates one to believe in God/gods/spirits, etc. THAT is something which is worth arguing about.



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14 Nov 2014, 11:09 pm

Shep wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
Religious texts are fictional
While subjective and opinionated, this statement is entirely beside the point.

AspieOtaku wrote:
just saying, I mean you could believe that the earth is on a giant turtles back swimming through space but we all know that is false.
And back to the Ad Hominem thing again.

Is this seriously all you've got? Frankly I find this latest addition to be a near-indirect admission that you can't meet my challenge. From what I can see, you're all talk but no walk, and you also don't have content to back up those massively over-reaching claims. If you want to go about saying a specific religion is wrong or incorrect, be my guest. But making threads telling us "you are wasting your time and allowing yourself to be a thrall to a made up concept" and calling us all "slave[s] to a make believe belief" then saying "science has proven it" yet **failing to deliver anything relevant** when someone calls you out on it is just sad, pitiful, and more "failed troll" than "converter of minds". :roll:

Our Debating 101 lesson for the day: before you go professing extraordinarily wild claims (such as the ones littered in this thread) to the masses, make sure you are both willing and able to defend said claims against intense scrutiny.
Very well, Ill play your little game, of course you might not like what I will have to say, so lets begin shall we? Its really simple to disprove a god via science, take the more primitive religions of the people like the Aztecs the Egyptians etc they worshiped the sun as a god but the sun is not a god but just a big ball of burning gas but they didn't know that because the people of the past viewed the world much differently than that of today and use mythology to explain it. The Hawaiians believe that their volcanoes are gods but the reality is they are just active volcanoes that act accordingly to their naturally occurring geologic activity. As for some of the other religions that were created more recently like Christianity Islam and Judism they all were formed by the ideas of other religions throughout the middle east and such they create the concept of one god as opposed to multiple gods unlike the prior religions before them because it was easier to keep track of one diety and for all followers to try and follow. Now I am not completely saying its always a bad thing and at the time the religions were created they seemed to be true at the time because they viewed how everything worked in a different way. Some religions are formed with the borrowing of stories and traditions of others. So god isn't really a god but more of a metaphorical idea and a concept to give people a reason to exist so in a way physically no a god does not exist but metaphorically yes in your mind it can. I might come off as too harsh and blunt and but I am a literal thinker and viewer not so much metaphorical. As you notice there has been a huge decline in religious followers as the years progress at least in America because they are figuring it out. Humanity is losing faith in a diety but gaining more faith in humanity. The universe around us is so vast and complex that its too complicated to explain its origins to most and there is still much to be unknown which is why to simplify it people created gods to simplify it and to explain the unknown and undiscovered, science has filled many of those gaps but there is still massive information yet to be discovered and those places unexplored will still remain a mystery for time to come that neither science nor religion can 100% explain at least to this day but maybe in a few thousand years we may find an answer it just seems to be a race between science and religion to find that answer. Behind every magic show there is smoke and mirrors behind everything that cannot be explained there is an explanation it is only a matter of time. You probably weren't prepared for that, for your big guns could not hit the broad side of a barn, its too bad I was wearing protective gear just in case. I don't need a diety for I have no reason to rely on one to get things done but get things done myself. Its alright it was a fun run I wasn't even trying really you just fell for the trap and decided to take the blue pill and not the red pill and followed the rabbit too far into the rabbits hole leaving you stuck in wonderland. I had to allow you to somewhat give you the false sense of feeling superior to play with you and it backfired tenfold, you have been weighed, you have been measured, you have been found wanting but deemed unworthy of victory now excuse me while I pour myself a glass of champaign in celebration as you desperately attempt to cling on to the remaining fragments of the concept of your diety that has been dismantled.ImageNow let us compare the views of then and now.


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Last edited by AspieOtaku on 15 Nov 2014, 1:26 am, edited 7 times in total.

anthropic_principle
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15 Nov 2014, 12:06 am

Lukecash12 wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
If all religions were were 100% proven to be not true along with the existence of their gods how would all the religious followers react? Would they panic?


To be honest they probably wouldn't believe it. And I doubt many militant atheists would believe it if the opposite happened. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance, you know.


are you kidding? to say (militant) atheists wouldn't believe when faced with evidence i find just absurd.
do you really think that? as a rational person (as i think atheists, especially militant as they're more likely to be serious about it, tend to be), I would start believing in a heartbeat.
however for instance if it turned out to be the christian one I wouldn't become a christian as I find that god absolutely disgusting.



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15 Nov 2014, 12:37 am

anthropic_principle wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
If all religions were were 100% proven to be not true along with the existence of their gods how would all the religious followers react? Would they panic?


To be honest they probably wouldn't believe it. And I doubt many militant atheists would believe it if the opposite happened. Confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance, you know.


are you kidding? to say (militant) atheists wouldn't believe when faced with evidence i find just absurd.
do you really think that? as a rational person (as i think atheists, especially militant as they're more likely to be serious about it, tend to be), I would start believing in a heartbeat.
however for instance if it turned out to be the christian one I wouldn't become a christian as I find that god absolutely disgusting.
From my studies this god/Jehova/Yahwei/Allah fellow seemed to have insecurity issues and control issues with the mentality of a child if he did not get what he wanted splashed with a twisted sick sense of humor.


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15 Nov 2014, 2:30 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODetOE6cbbc[/youtube]God and gods were created..by people!


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15 Nov 2014, 3:14 am

Some people just believe in God and others don't, you shouldn't put people down or get mad at them just because they do believe in a higher power.

I'm Catholic and I'm not bothered by people of any other faith or belief system.



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15 Nov 2014, 6:51 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
ImageNow let us compare the views of then and now.

Probably important to point out - back then people were far from idiots, particularly on the social level and knowing when they were getting scammed. If anything got tweaked to look oblong it was our mythological narratives. Think the kind of sanitary bleaching that we give kids on relations between the Native Americans and the European settlers or the flavor of the Revolutionary War - things that only happened a couple hundred years ago - and you can only imagine the largest religion in the west having its narrative getting Madison Avenued a mile wide.



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15 Nov 2014, 1:43 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
ImageNow let us compare the views of then and now.

Probably important to point out - back then people were far from idiots, particularly on the social level and knowing when they were getting scammed. If anything got tweaked to look oblong it was our mythological narratives. Think the kind of sanitary bleaching that we give kids on relations between the Native Americans and the European settlers or the flavor of the Revolutionary War - things that only happened a couple hundred years ago - and you can only imagine the largest religion in the west having its narrative getting Madison Avenued a mile wide.
People viewed things very differently back then as opposed to today hallucinations were real and magic to them and if a crazy guy claimed to be a god or have visions they would believe him. i am not saying they were stupid they just didnt understand at the time and it was easy to believe in things like goblins and such.


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