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Do you think Muslims are monolithic?
Yes. 31%  31%  [ 4 ]
No. 69%  69%  [ 9 ]
Total votes : 13

Liveirarica
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01 Dec 2014, 8:03 am

aghogday wrote:
And more than likely the girl he had sex with was of puberty age, but age 18, not likely, just not likely, as that is more or less going by the laws of today, in view of centuries ago.
No. it's math. If Aisha's marriage to Prophet Muhammad took place one year after Hijrah (emigration to Medina), or around 624 A.D. She was the daughter of Abu Bakr. Tabari reports, “All four of [Abu Bakr’s] children were born of his two wives—the names of whom we have already mentioned—during the pre-Islamic period [i.e. pre-610 A.D.].”

Therefore, even if Aisha was born in 609 A.D., only a year before Prophet Muhammad claimed prophethood, she would be roughly 14 at the time of emigration to Medina in 623, and therefore no less than 15 (that is age of consent and sexually mature) at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad.

Likewise, most historians report that Asma, Aisha’s elder sister, was ten years her senior. The books, “Tahzibut Tahzib” and “Al-Bidaayah wa an-Nihayah,” both report that Asma died at the age of 100, in 73 A.H. or 695 A.D.

This means that Asma must have been no younger than 27 at the time of emigration. That would mean that Aisha’s marriage to Prophet Muhammad was in 1 A.H. when Asma was 28. This means that at a minimum, Aisha was 18 upon her consenting marriage to Prophet Muhammad.

Are you disregarding this fact because it coincidentally fall into civilized law? Would you rather imagine it as a 50-years-old with a 7-years old with no evidence other than conjecture because it fits to your idea and gives you an insult-card to use? I pity you... you're just blabbering on lies and criticize the greatest man ever by using lies as examples to support your accusations.

As for your other points, I do not bother. Let me have my opinion and you have yours [dismissed] opinion if you wish.



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01 Dec 2014, 9:58 am

Well, that's just it, my opinion and your opinion that so and so had a faulty memory and got the age wrong is just that, opinion and nothing more.

And if you take religion as the literal word of God, welcome to the brainwashing as there is a long historical and factual record of that phenomenon in most all religions, including Islam.

One MUST be willing to discern and seek truth to have any hope in finding it and that's the fact.

Your attempts at attacking my character and that of the other people in this discussion and attempts to control it are just that, attempts only.

This is just a discussion board dude, not a 'holy' war, per due sarcasm. ;) If you can handle it in a peaceful way.


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01 Dec 2014, 10:26 am

Not only that you've already conceded my point that she was potentially under the age of 18 with your statement as quoted here:

Quote:
she would be roughly 14 at the time of emigration to Medina in 623, and therefore no less than 15 at the time of her marriage to Prophet Muhammad. Both are a far cry from the age of six that stupid and ignorant bigots asserts


It appears to me you are more selfishly concerned about being right than finding truth, otherwise you could read what you just wrote that was in agreement with what I said, overall.

The only thing I have contradicted you on in my opinion, OVERALL, TO THIS POINT, is the ridiculous statement that Muhammad is the last of his kind per prophet in the frigging entire Universe, which truly is a silly statement no matter who made it and a selfish tribal one designed to brainwash folks into staying with A so-called one true religion that is a contributing factor to at least as many deaths through history as the similar silly people who say the Christian religion is the one true religion OR ELSE.

They are both religions PURPOSELY DESIGNED BY HUMANS TO support TRIBAL WARFARE TO SECURE SUBSISTENCE.

THAT IS THE overriding purpose in FACT AS SHOWN HISTORICALLY IN REALITY, more so than THE SO CALLED LOVE OF GOD.

Jesus came to change that, PER THE LOVE THINGY, and NO MUHAMMAD WAS not successful either, obviously.

At least not yet, per the real historical Jesus, but there is hope where there is love, and not people ONLY TRYING TO PROVE THEY ARE SELFISHLY RIGHT TO THE DEATH IF NECESSARY, IN REAL LIFE OF COURSE, not on a little Internet discussion board, he-HE.


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01 Dec 2014, 10:35 am

aghogday wrote:
It appears to me you are more selfishly concerned about being right than finding truth, otherwise you could read what you just wrote that was in agreement with what I said, overall.

The only thing I have contradicted you on in my opinion, OVERALL, TO THIS POINT, is the ridiculous statement that Muhammad is the last of his kind per prophet in the frigging entire Universe, which truly is a silly statement no matter who made it and a selfish tribal one designed to brainwash folks into staying with A so-called one true religion that is causing at least as many deaths through history as the same silly people who say the Christian religion is the one true religion OR ELSE.

They are both religions PURPOSELY DESIGNED BY HUMANS TO support TRIBAL WARFARE TO SECURE SUBSISTENCE.

THAT IS THE overriding purpose in FACT AS SHOWN HISTORICALLY IN REALITY, more so than THE SO CALLED LOVE OF GOD.

Jesus came to change that, PER THE LOVE THINGY, and NO MUHAMMAD WAS not successful either, obviously.

At least not yet, per the real historical Jesus, but there is hope where there is love, and not people ONLY TRYING TO PROVE THEY ARE SELFISHLY RIGHT TO THE DEATH IF NECESSARY, IN REAL LIFE OF COURSE, not on a little Internet discussion board, he-HE.

I find myself in complete agreement. Governments based on "Religions of the Book" (i.e., Judaism, Christianity, Islam, et al.) were established to: (1) subjugate foreigners and women; (2) promote cheap labor through slavery and indentured servitude; (3) justify conquest by genocide; (4) enforce a monolithic belief system on everyone; and (4) justify expulsion or execution of non-believers.

Islam is only the latest, most violent, and most hypocritical of all the "Religions of the Book".


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01 Dec 2014, 11:11 am

aghogday wrote:
Well, that's just it, my opinion and your opinion that so and so had a faulty memory and got the age wrong is just that, opinion and nothing more.
That's not an opinion, that's conjecture from your side on, and what I stated is a fact supported by historical and mathematical evidence, as well as common sense. Learn the differences.
Quote:
And if you take religion as the literal word of God, welcome to the brainwashing as there is a long historical and factual record of that phenomenon in most all religions, including Islam.
I do take Quran as the literal word of God, but you are in no position to say that I am ''brainwashed'', I would say that you are the brainwashed to have an incorrect notion of how to perceive the world's great mysteries. I have studied the Quran, and as well as other religions' holy texts, and come to the conclusion Quran is absolutely perfect in its structure unlike other holy texts that are fallible in comparison. I am convinced by free thought that Quran is thus a godly-made masterpiece, excluding any other texts.
Quote:
One MUST be willing to discern and seek truth to have any hope in finding it and that's the fact.
Indeed, but you seem to think that to seek the truth is to deny it and expect something else. I have found the truth that I sought, accepted it and embraced it.
Quote:
Your attempts at attacking my character and that of the other people in this discussion and attempts to control it are just that, attempts only.
No, I succeeded with certainty on, -not attacking your character-, but to refute and debunk your fallacious claims that dismissed your argument as a whole, excluding your immaterial points.
Quote:
Not only that you've already conceded my point that she was potentially under the age of 18 with your statement as quoted here:
If you read in context, that paragraph is debunked by the fact of that she was 18 at the age of Muhammad's marriage. Even if we said 15, it wouldn't do justice to your incompatible point on that he were with someone below puberty, 15 is a sexual mature adolescent and the established age of consent and your point would, regardless, be dismissed for their ludicrous assumption that she was without consent and too young to understand and that Muhammad, peace be upon him, was being a, God forbid, a pedophile rapist which would be a nonsensical statement coming from a reckless individual that has the audacity to say such fooling things.
Quote:
It appears to me you are more selfishly concerned about being right than finding truth, otherwise you could read what you just wrote that was in agreement with what I said, overall.
Wrong. I am simply an intellectual free-thinker above the incompatibles [adverb].
Quote:
The only thing I have contradicted you on in my opinion, OVERALL, TO THIS POINT, is the ridiculous statement that Muhammad is the last of his kind per prophet in the frigging entire Universe, which truly is a silly statement no matter who made it
Why would it be? You cannot articulate on that because you're wrong. If God has believed his words do not need to continue spread revelations, then he does not and that person would be the last prophet, Jesus would be the last prophet to return and cease all other religions to follow the last message by God as brought by the messenger, I never understood the stupid concept of things need to continue forever. A message ends after you don't have more to inform your people and here it does end. there were never two messages, but only one.
Quote:
They are both religions PURPOSELY DESIGNED BY HUMANS TO support TRIBAL WARFARE TO SECURE SUBSISTENCE.
This is nothing but your conjectured statement that has no substance or anything of evidenced value holding unto it.
Quote:
Jesus came to change that, PER THE LOVE THINGY, and NO MUHAMMAD WAS not successful either, obviously.
Yes, he was. He spread the message through the entire world as followed by 1.6 billion people, the unaltered message of God. And he died knowing that he won the battle and conquered Mecca as God demanded him. Your 'obvious' needs modification.

Goodbye and you're dismissed.

Fnord wrote:
I find myself in complete agreement.
First of all, you shouldn't continue posting your deceit when you can't even back them up, I made a fool out of you the first time, you scurried away and did not return, when you do, you ignore as if anything had happened. Typical.
Quote:
(2) promote cheap labor through slavery and indentured servitude;
All what you said is humiliating flawed and wrong. 1; elaborate on this funny piece of comedy of yours.

2; that would be the reason why Islam was the most opponent of slavery, do yourself a research on history and stop living in pitiful ignorance, it will do advantage to your undeveloped mind to read some history about Bilal, an Ethiopian man who was a slave until freed and become a companion of the Messenger, how Muhammad spoke against slavery. Here are some verses from Quran on slavery; "I swear by this city, Makkah - And you, [O Muhammad], are free of restriction in this city - And by the father and that which was born of him, We have certainly created man into hardship. Does he think that never will anyone overcome him? He says, "I have spent wealth in abundance." Does he think that no one has seen him? He says, "I have spent wealth in abundance." Does he think that no one has seen him? Have We not made for him two eyes? And a tongue and two lips? And have shown him the two ways? [black]But he has not broken through the difficult pass. And what can make you know what is [breaking through] the difficult pass? It is the freeing of a slave. Or feeding on a day of severe hunger. An orphan of near relationship. Or a needy person in misery. And then being among those who believed and advised one another to patience and advised one another to compassion. Those are the companions of the right. But they who disbelieved in Our signs - those are the companions of the left. Over them will be fire closed in."

The Quran, Surah 90:13 clearly stated, the act of freeing of a slave will make those people who do such deed to be categorized as the Companions of the Right, a term for the blessed people in Hereafter. And those who won't will be punished in Hell.

"Righteousness is not turning your faces towards the east or the west. Righteous are those who believe in God, the Last Day, the angels, the scripture, and the prophets; and they give the money, cheerfully, to the relatives, the orphans, the needy, the traveler, the beggars, and to free the slaves... [2:177]

To be righteous is to do these things and among those things are to free the slaves. By freeing a slave God forgives you for many of those sins you committed. You're dismissed for your foolish statement.
Quote:
(3) justify conquest by genocide;
3; where? Citation needed.
Quote:
and (4) justify expulsion or execution of non-believers.
What does Islam say about unbelievers and people of other faith?

"Say : O ye that reject Faith! I worship not that which ye worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship, Nor will ye worship that which I worship. To you be your Way, and to me mine. (The Noble Quran, 109:1-6)"

"Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy handhold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. (The Noble Quran, 2:256)"

"On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (The Noble Quran, 5:32)"

"And say, "The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve." Indeed, We have prepared for the wrongdoers a fire whose walls will surround them. And if they call for relief, they will be relieved with water like murky oil, which scalds [their] faces. Wretched is the drink, and evil is the resting place." (The Noble Quran, 18:29)

Noble Verse 45:14: "Tell those who believe, to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of Allah: It is for Him to recompense (for good or ill) each people according to what they have earned."

You're dismissed. Kid, go to sleep and stop trying to discuss intelligently with intellectuals, it embarrasses me to go down to your low level to discuss with an idiot like you.



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01 Dec 2014, 11:22 am

Dude you aren't even reading what I wrote. My suggestion was that Muhammad wasn't likely a pedophile. You are seeing so much red that it appears you can't even hear what people are telling you it seems to me.

Just because someone says something is the word of GOD is just because someone says something is the word of GOD.

It doesn't mean it's true, obviously for anyone with common sense.

I do not believe everything that I've been told in life, cause I can think for myself.

IF YOU SERIOUSLY BELIEVE THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE INFALLIBLE AND WRITE INFALLIBLE OPINIONS ABOUT GOD THAT IS SO FAR ABOVE THE HUMAN THAT IS A TICK UPON THE DOG OF GOD, YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY NOT SEEING THE DOG YOU DEPEND ON FOR BLOOD.

AND YOU CAN QUOTE ME ON THAT AS I TOO AM A PROPHET OF GOD, AND A FOOL OF GOD ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

And it appears here that you are a dark prophet of GOD, which is simply a metaphor like all the stuff I just wrote as I too am inspired by the so-called holy spirit, but am imperfect too.

And to be clear as far as the metaphor of prophet as messenger of GOD goes all humans are messengers of GOD, IN MY OPINION, some light and some dark, and it is up to us to discern the light from the dark, and ACT ACCORDINGLY.

SO YES, even though Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad were mighty cool dudes, no they were not that SPECIAL, AND NO THEY DID NOT CONSIDER THEMSELVES IN REAL LIFE SPECIAL EITHER, from all practical accounts of historical record.

Humility is the prize of HUMAN BEING, not the last prophet or the King of the FRIGGING KING OF THE UNIVERSE.


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01 Dec 2014, 2:13 pm

To the OP:

If you claim to be so intellectual then why are you resorting to the level of name calling and insults instead of keeping your level of reasoning to a higher standard. If you revert to calling others names, then you are lowering your level of debate.

You should be able to voice your opinions in a respectful way, otherwise you may well find yourself banned or the thread locked.


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01 Dec 2014, 2:46 pm

Liveirarica wrote:
trollcatman wrote:
Most Nazis were not atheists at all, but Catholic or Protestant.
3.5% of German population self-identified as "gottgläubig," and 1.5% were non-religious. Most of this latter 5% were committed Nazis, who left the churches in response and encouragement of the Nazi Party program to reduce the influence of the Christian churches in Germany according to historian Richard J. Evans in his book "The Third Reich at War" [p. 546]. I think you need to educate yourself more in history, Nazism's plan was to fight against Christianity, annihilate, and were predominately anti-Christian, popular examples are Martin Bormann and Joseph Goebbels. Hitler himself was an irreligious atheist who despised Christianity from the historical accounts we have. You're, thus, wrong about that.


3.5% God-believers/Deists, 1.5 atheists. And the other 95%? Divided between Catholics and Protestants. The Nazis at first had a lot of popular support, even though they had to resort to trickery to make the final power grab. They could not have come to power with 5% support, the overwhelming majority of Germans at the time were Christians (at least in name). The majority of Nazi Party members where also members of Churches. Hitler himself never left the Catholic Church, although what he believed is somewhat unclear. I think he and the Nazis did not care much for what people believed, but the churches and clergy had influence so they were opposed by the Nazis just like the unions and the free press. All dictatorships do this: they either ally with the religious leaders, or they try to bring them down. Franco allied with the RC church and prosecuted socialist unions. This was more difficult to do in Germany since the population was divided in Catholics and Protestants, so religion could not be a unifier in Germany as it could in Spain.
What Roman Catholics believe can be quite iffy though. I know several people who self-identify as Roman Catholic but don't believe in God (????). Anyway, this was all a bit off-topic from the first post really, I'll respond to the other points in a next post.


Quote:
But it seems that you chose to ignore my point, I didn't say "look at those groups, they fight for Christianity!" I just made an analogy on how absurd that it is to make such claims, because if you ignored those parts of my comment, I shall show you again; "should this be a legitimate claim to say that all atheists are violent through these groups, whilst ignoring that these groups did their terror for political motives and ignoring atheist Buddhists, Secularists Humanists and all other peaceful deity-disbelieving groups, as well? I'm intelligent enough to know a minority aren't the representative of a whole label, but I see most bigots are not to know the same about say, Islam."

This argument has been refuted and debunked.


I actually agree with your point here, I should have made that clearer. I'll respond to the other parts of your post later.



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01 Dec 2014, 4:08 pm

Liveirarica wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Liveirarica I have some polls for you. These are about you personally, rather than all Muslims. I think they cover some important topics and i tried by best to cover all base, if you are interested in answering I give my thoughts.
Please do, I do not mind.


Answer this one first
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=268233&p=6284737#p6284737

Then I will give you another three. Appreciated.



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01 Dec 2014, 4:43 pm

Here's some more violent verses I have found:-

7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people.

(Anyone from another religion?, kill them)

15 you shall surely strike the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, utterly destroying it, all that is in it and its livestock—with the edge of the sword. 16 And you shall gather all its plunder into the middle of the street, and completely burn with fire the city and all its plunder,

(Don't just kill the people, kill their animals as well!)

How evil must the followers of such a book be, I bet they start wars and kill people in other lands who dont follow their religious way.

But the above scriptures are not from the Koran, they are from the Bible, and when you look at how much war emanates from the West over the course of history, I wonder if we are not hypocrites to point the finger at another religion and gather hatred in our bosom towards it when our past history demonstrates we have a worst record, and as for our current history!
We are doing precisely the things to Islam that we claim they wish to do to us.

Maybe of we didn't attack Islamic countries in order to control them and steal their resources, there wouldn't be elements that dare to complain so violently.

All wars are started by a few in power, they use religion and they ferment hatred and prejudice to get the gullible plebeian to sacrifice their lives for their love of their own deceipt.
I wonder how many Islamic terrorists are also manipulated to act on their hatred in the way the West morally justifies itself?

Us Plebs ought to stop ourselves being used and enjoying the opportunity for politically correct racism and maybe we would see a better world than we have now.



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01 Dec 2014, 5:26 pm

The Koran is just like the bible. One can pick and choose verses to support or deny any claim they'd like to make.



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01 Dec 2014, 6:13 pm

Cash__ wrote:
The Koran is just like the bible. One can pick and choose verses to support or deny any claim they'd like to make.


The Quran is heavily influenced by the The Hebrew Bible. It is also influence a bit by the book of Revelation especially the apocalyptic aspects. It is not that influence by either early Christianity nor Paulist Christianity, but it has it own take on Christianity.

I never really understood why the book of Revelation and various other odds an ends make up modern Christianity. For one anybody could have similar or indeed different revelation, why is this particular narrator held up? When they are one anonymous individual.



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01 Dec 2014, 6:46 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Cash__ wrote:
The Koran is just like the bible. One can pick and choose verses to support or deny any claim they'd like to make.


The Quran is heavily influenced by the The Hebrew Bible. It is also influence a bit by the book of Revelation especially the apocalyptic aspects. It is not that influence by either early Christianity nor Paulist Christianity, but it has it own take on Christianity.

I never really understood why the book of Revelation and various other odds an ends make up modern Christianity. For one anybody could have similar or indeed different revelation, why is this particular narrator held up? When they are one anonymous individual.


I understand Muhammad was raised by his Catholic Uncle, that would explain where the Biblical influence comes from.
It would also explain the obsession the Quran has with the Catholic notion of the Grave/Hell being a place where an evil god tortures people for all eternity for rather minor offenses making the god of Islam and the Catholics a worst nightmare than every human psychopath that ever existed combined, whereas in fact God only ever promised non-existence as the reward for those who turned down his offer of an extended existence.

The Quran and the Hadiths do indeed incorporate aspects of Revelation, but it is an unenlightened interpretation.
For instance, Muslims believe a literal animal/beast will come out of the literal sea and literally speak to mankind, whereas the Bible explains the Beast of Revelation 13 elsewhere such as the book of Daniel where King Nebuchadnezzar dreamt of the composite parts of the Revelation 666 beast and Daniel explained each beast to represent a future Human Kingdom.
The "sea" also being show elsewhere to be "the sea of Mankind".

Modern Christianity generally ignores the book of Revelation whereas in fact it is just another angle of the end of days prophesies concerning the establishment of Gods coming Kingdom, (Let thy Kingdom come) written about in the Old Testament books of Daniel and Zechariah, it is possibly the most relevant Bible book for those who live at the end of the days and need to know what to do.

The plagues of Egypt with Moses leading Gods people out of slavery into a promised land is the earlier smaller demonstration of what happens when the "Greater Moses", Jesus Christ, leads Gods people into his restored Earth, hence the plagues of Revelation which will announce God in a way bigger than the plagues that affected Egypt of Gods existence and power.



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02 Dec 2014, 9:07 am

envirozentinel wrote:
To the OP:

If you claim to be so intellectual then why are you resorting to the level of name calling and insults instead of keeping your level of reasoning to a higher standard. If you revert to calling others names, then you are lowering your level of debate.

You should be able to voice your opinions in a respectful way, otherwise you may well find yourself banned or the thread locked.
I go to anger management, don't take it personally.



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02 Dec 2014, 9:11 am

Imagine that ... a follower of Mohammed going to anger management counseling.

So much for the "Religion of Peace". :lol:


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