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K_Kelly
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05 Dec 2014, 5:51 pm

I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.



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05 Dec 2014, 6:58 pm

But the world will never be blind to us Aspies/autistics, blacks or other racial minorities, gays, or anyone else who is different. And because people, bastards that they are, are not blind, they more often than not will perceive "the other" as inferior or threatening. Hence, that's why people have to stick up for themselves and demanding equal treatment, and appeal to the government to do the right thing and legislate equal treatment. And equal treatment and equal rights are just that - equal - not special treatment or rights. If anything, I'm proud to be a citizen of a country that has redressed past wrongs, and has moved closer to a more inclusive society.


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05 Dec 2014, 8:11 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
But the world will never be blind to us Aspies/autistics, blacks or other racial minorities, gays, or anyone else who is different. And because people, bastards that they are, are not blind, they more often than not will perceive "the other" as inferior or threatening. Hence, that's why people have to stick up for themselves and demanding equal treatment, and appeal to the government to do the right thing and legislate equal treatment. And equal treatment and equal rights are just that - equal - not special treatment or rights. If anything, I'm proud to be a citizen of a country that has redressed past wrongs, and has moved closer to a more inclusive society.



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05 Dec 2014, 9:47 pm

Well, I wouldn't say you are "ignorant," just naive.

For one thing, being genuinely successful makes you different. I hate to break it to you, but most people don't really achieve much with their lives. The kind of job you make median household income on, which is $30,932, is about that of a massage therapist:

http://www.careerbuilder.com/article/cb ... ry-levels/

Nothing to be ashamed of, right? That's the point. It's hardly anything to feel embarrassed over, but it's not exactly a life of high accomplishment, either. I hope you have reasons to feel genuinely proud of yourself other than just your career, you know, like being a genuinely loyal and trustworthy friend or a truly faithful and devoted spouse.

Being a truly accomplished and genuinely good person makes you a freak, all by itself. That makes you different, plain and simple. There is no getting around it. Unfortunately, many of those who are different in ways that are not really necessarily bad are treated like crap, due to faults in society, not faults within ourselves. Although some people with ASD have substantive challenges that others don't regardless of how supportive society or our families were, for many of us, the main thing standing between us and an accomplished life is the prejudice of small-minded people.

To be proud, as a person on the Spectrum, is to stand up for your right to be proud of yourself as a person. It is to stand up for the fact that being on the Spectrum isn't a mark of shame or something for you to hide, but it is a set of challenges that you have overcome, perhaps even BECAUSE of traits related to you being on the Spectrum! Or maybe in spite of them.

But you are standing up for the fact that you are intent on being a contributing and successful member of society, and that is what "pride" is all about.

I'm gay. Well, "gay pride" means that I have a right to be one of those "Log Cabin Republican" types. I'm not enough of a sociopath for it, but it basically means that I can aspire to accomplish myself in any way that I strive to. I won't be turned away from an organization, even the GOP even though I think they're disgusting and failures as human beings, because of my sexuality alone. I am not going to let this be something that gives me cause to give up on my dreams, even if those dreams are crappy ones.

It means that I have a right to distinguish myself in good ways, irrelevant ways, or even bad ways, just like anyone else, who may have challenges different from my own, such as my nephew, who was born with cystic fibrosis. He might even become a marathon runner.



LoveNotHate
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05 Dec 2014, 10:44 pm

The minorities you mentioned only get crumbs.

The real advantages go to well connected, high IQ people, and good looking people. For example, I earn like 200k/year when my pension annuity is factored in, and likely my ASD is the primary reason I have the education and interest to do my job.



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07 Dec 2014, 7:30 am

Which, given that those three factors are strongly dependent upon what family you're born into... well, I think you can see the problem.

I'd like to see a study on socio-economic class and attractiveness. My hypothesis is that middle class individuals will be on average more attractive, as a result of both increased health (especially during upbringing, as in those who are from middle class backgrounds) and also the attractiveness bonus that results in getting better paid jobs.



The_Walrus
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07 Dec 2014, 12:22 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
The minorities you mentioned only get crumbs.

The real advantages go to well connected, high IQ people, and good looking people. For example, I earn like 200k/year when my pension annuity is factored in, and likely my ASD is the primary reason I have the education and interest to do my job.

You must be really good looking then.



LoveNotHate
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07 Dec 2014, 5:36 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
The minorities you mentioned only get crumbs.

The real advantages go to well connected, high IQ people, and good looking people. For example, I earn like 200k/year when my pension annuity is factored in, and likely my ASD is the primary reason I have the education and interest to do my job.

You must be really good looking then.


Yes, I am. My optometrist says my face is absolutely symmetric based on measurements, and I have rarely gone outside so I avoided sun damage. However, I work from home, so my looks are not a factor. They have been in the past, as many people have told me how good looking I am.

My point is that people with these traits (a minority group) can do much better than the above mentioned minority groups.

I make my income in engineering research. A very comfortable job, IMO, for an ASD person.



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08 Dec 2014, 5:54 am

K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I'll just answer for the case of autism - these "equal rights" you speak of, most of us wouldn't survive without them. Most of us can't, even with those in existance. These services exist because we cannot always go with the flow of mainstream society. The majority of us cannot always find and keep a job, keep friends, among many other things you're surely aware of as a result of being autistic. These services exist to help us function in society, to give us the best quality of life we can get despite being born disabled.

Different doesn't mean broken or wrong, it just means different. I'm thankful I live in a society that is willing to offer such things to accommodate said difference. I just wish that when I say society, I meant the people who take part in it, not just the government. :|


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08 Dec 2014, 8:00 pm

K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I like the idea of Affirmative Action.

In Canada, if allowed to, business would have stripped our natives of all that we grudgingly gave them in the first place.

Without Affirmative action and yes, even quotas, our natives would have been basically locked into being welfare recipients forever.

It is shameful when a society has to be forced to do the right thing but to not do it when required would be even more shameful.

Regards
DL



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09 Dec 2014, 3:09 am

GnosticBishop wrote:
K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I like the idea of Affirmative Action.

In Canada, if allowed to, business would have stripped our natives of all that we grudgingly gave them in the first place.

Without Affirmative action and yes, even quotas, our natives would have been basically locked into being welfare recipients forever.

It is shameful when a society has to be forced to do the right thing but to not do it when required would be even more shameful.

Regards
DL


A lot of left wing/progressive ideas sound good on the surface, however, once they are implemented they turn out to have unintended consequences, because of the rule - that when the government helps someone, they first have to hurt someone else.

For example, in America, in college entrance, we have "racial preference" towards "minorities". However, to accomplish this they must heavily penalize Asian students, so fewer are let in, and somewhat penalize white students so fewer get in, so that lesser qualified black people and Hispanic students can get in.



Kraichgauer
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09 Dec 2014, 3:43 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I like the idea of Affirmative Action.

In Canada, if allowed to, business would have stripped our natives of all that we grudgingly gave them in the first place.

Without Affirmative action and yes, even quotas, our natives would have been basically locked into being welfare recipients forever.

It is shameful when a society has to be forced to do the right thing but to not do it when required would be even more shameful.

Regards
DL


A lot of left wing/progressive ideas sound good on the surface, however, once they are implemented they turn out to have unintended consequences, because of the rule - that when the government helps someone, they first have to hurt someone else.

For example, in America, in college entrance, we have "racial preference" towards "minorities". However, to accomplish this they must heavily penalize Asian students, so fewer are let in, and somewhat penalize white students so fewer get in, so that lesser qualified black people and Hispanic students can get in.


Because of those left wing/progressive ideas, Jim Crow is a thing of the past, and equal rights are enforced by law, with no one hurt by it but racists who feel set upon for not being able to step on blacks anymore.


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LoveNotHate
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09 Dec 2014, 4:42 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Because of those left wing/progressive ideas, Jim Crow is a thing of the past, and equal rights are enforced by law, with no one hurt by it but racists who feel set upon for not being able to step on blacks anymore.


Far more were hurt then just some racists. The many crime ridden inner city ghettos were created precisely because of ending segregation i.e., white people fled and poor black people moved in.

Victims: the property destruction, the body toll, the racial strife, the people caught in the cross-hairs of all this racial mess, like kids who were bussed to unfamiliar inner-city schools ...look at Detroit, and think, 'job well done'!



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09 Dec 2014, 4:57 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Because of those left wing/progressive ideas, Jim Crow is a thing of the past, and equal rights are enforced by law, with no one hurt by it but racists who feel set upon for not being able to step on blacks anymore.


Far more were hurt then just some racists. The many crime ridden inner city ghettos were created precisely because of ending segregation i.e., white people fled and poor black people moved in.

Victims: the property destruction, the body toll, the racial strife, the people caught in the cross-hairs of all this racial mess, like kids who were bussed to unfamiliar inner-city schools ...look at Detroit, and think, 'job well done'!


Please don't tell me you're seriously defending Jim Crow and racism.


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09 Dec 2014, 7:56 am

GnosticBishop wrote:
K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I like the idea of Affirmative Action.

In Canada, if allowed to, business would have stripped our natives of all that we grudgingly gave them in the first place.

Without Affirmative action and yes, even quotas, our natives would have been basically locked into being welfare recipients forever.

It is shameful when a society has to be forced to do the right thing but to not do it when required would be even more shameful.

Regards
DL

How about, instead, you let the natives start their own businesses? Or are they too stupid and childlike to do that, and need Mighty wh***y to employ them?

[/leftlibertarian]



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09 Dec 2014, 10:17 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
K_Kelly wrote:
I think providing "minorities" with special, equal rights are offensive because it charges in my mind images of someone saying "Oh look at the poor [autism, gay, black etc.] welfare recipient he must not have worked hard in his life" and that there is somehow something "wrong" with minorities. I find the special interest "equal rights" and "pride" movements pretty offensive, despite having ASD myself. I'd rather the world was blind to these types of differences in us. The "minority" label applied to my condition makes me feel bad about myself and I don't want to identify as "different" whenever possible. I am actually proud of what I achieved, but we didn't choose these certain qualities. I am not trying to sound ignorant, but this is a very emotional topic for me.


I like the idea of Affirmative Action.

In Canada, if allowed to, business would have stripped our natives of all that we grudgingly gave them in the first place.

Without Affirmative action and yes, even quotas, our natives would have been basically locked into being welfare recipients forever.

It is shameful when a society has to be forced to do the right thing but to not do it when required would be even more shameful.

Regards
DL


A lot of left wing/progressive ideas sound good on the surface, however, once they are implemented they turn out to have unintended consequences, because of the rule - that when the government helps someone, they first have to hurt someone else.

For example, in America, in college entrance, we have "racial preference" towards "minorities". However, to accomplish this they must heavily penalize Asian students, so fewer are let in, and somewhat penalize white students so fewer get in, so that lesser qualified black people and Hispanic students can get in.


It is that or continue to have those groups overrepresented in your jails.

That is the choice politicians must face and if they do not want to have that overrepresentation to last forever then they will support Affirmative action.

If you want an eventual revolution of blacks and Hispanics against the white then do not do Affirmative Action, which is a way to redress the abuse that the whites have done to blacks and Hispanics.

Regards
DL