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eric76
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09 Feb 2015, 12:48 pm

The meaning of words in the common use is not necessarily the same meanings they have in the world of science. Often times the words are the same but are much more precise in science than in common language.



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09 Feb 2015, 12:54 pm

eric76 wrote:
The meaning of words in the common use is not necessarily the same meanings they have in the world of science. Often times the words are the same but are much more precise in science than in common language.


The bottom line is assumptions ARE USED IN SCIENCE.

MERRIAM-WEBSTER DIDN'T JUST pull that synonym, per Hypotheticals, and the example line on Assumptions about Mars, PER SCIENCE, out of their 'butt'.

They have a lot of practice AT DEFINING WORDS CLEARLY.

And MERRIAM-WEBSTER IS the world's most trusted dictionary, for good REASON. :)

THEY GET THE JOB DONE CORRECT, CONSISTENTLY, ALL THE TIME, DEFINING WORDS FULLY, AS IS.

AND in THIS case 'they' make it MORE THAN CLEAR THAT assumptions ARE USED in science.

OTHER than that this thread is mental masturbation, and there's nothing wrong with that, in my opinion. ;)


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09 Feb 2015, 1:39 pm

Simple!

All you need to do is demonstrate, where we can all see it, that entropy works in reverse because you want it to if you wait long enough.



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09 Feb 2015, 11:57 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Simple!

All you need to do is demonstrate, where we can all see it, that entropy works in reverse because you want it to if you wait long enough.


Well, Oldavid, and GREAT CREATIVE user name, by the way, at least with human beings and the power of the 'Quantum Mind' that ENTROPY WORKING IN REVERSE THINGY is possible within the span of one lifetime, and I have conclusive case study evidence, at least in MY CASE, for IT.

LIFE IS A WONDERFUL GIFT for those folks who live it that way, as it can either be LITERAL heaven on this earth or hell.

I choose heaven and ALL THERE IS IS NOW, SO EVERYTHING NOW IS COMPLETE ABOUT MY LIFE.

Ah.. the power of HUMAN RELATIVE FREE WILL, PRACTICED IN NOW...

THERE IS NOTHING QUITE LIKE IT FOR THOSE who truly exercise IT now.

Oh, and here is the case study evidence thoroughly examined and evidenced, empirically so...

http://katiemiafrederick.com/2015/02/09/quantum-mind-unleashed/

And you friend, helped me do it, in your own inspirational way, as I gain inspiration from all folks, no matter WHAT THEY SAY OR DO.

I AM IN CONTROL, with my own will, relatively speaking, of course...;)

I MASTER ENTROPY WITH MY MIND and body balance.

Perhaps that is a BOLD STATEMENT BUT IT IS FACT, EVIDENCED AS SUCH, in the case study, linked above.

And there was a so-called prophet named Jesus that promised that human beings CAN JUST DO IT, IF THEY set their minds and bodies in balance TO IT. :)

HE, OR WHOMEVER write THOSE WORDS IN THE NT IS/ARE correct, undoubtedly SO.

When it comes to human nature and Universal truth, ah.. the world across distance and space IS a small small world of WONDER.

AND IT'S oh so nice to live, tHere. ;)

For me at least, It's BOOGIE WONDERLAND.

And THAT my friend is an extra kool place TO BE..

Even at age 54, wHere entropy IS NO PROBLEM AT ALL.



Perhaps back then.. it went down something like this..



Hmm.. at least in the early 70's..;)


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10 Feb 2015, 1:10 am

aghogday wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
eric76 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Narrator wrote:
I asked this in another thread, but as it was off-topic, I decided to make a new thread.

In science, is it alright to make assumptions? Here's the what-if:

Let's say that John's scientific experience is substantial. Can John make assumptions based on that experience, in the process of his thesis, and still call his conclusions valid?


It's not clear to me what you mean. Reading some of the responses did nothing to help.

Precisely what do you mean by "assumptions based on that experience"? My guess is, you want to create an appeal to authority. That may work well in subjects like literature, but it does not apply in fields of science.

There is no "it's true because Dr Bletch said so" in science.

So if that is what you are referring to, then the answer is clearly "NO".


"An assumption based upon prior experience" is NOT an "assumption". An "assumption" is something taken on faith, and is unproven. If prior repeated expirement has shown that the moon is not made of green cheese then -using the proven fact that the moon is not made of green cheese as basis for further observation- is NOT making an 'assumption'. Its using proven fact.


That would be one kind of assumption.


What do you insist on contradicting yourself?


According the definition of "assumption" agreed upon in this thread "taking something unproven as fact" it is NOT an "assumption". If prior experiment has proven it-then youre not taking "something not proven as fact". If it IS proven then its proven, and Its not an assumption.


NO, that is NOT the agreed upon DEFINITION OF ASSUMPTION IN THIS THREAD, AS OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH IT, including me, who has already stated that clearly, and defined it before, professionally as such, here in this thread, as below.

ASSUMPTION IS SYNONYM FOR HYPOTHESIS, AND HYPOTHESIS CAN RELY ON PAST ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCES WHETHER PROVEN OR NOT for FORMULATION of Hypothesis.

Merriam AND Webster is AN authority on THAT; NOT YOU, budding journalist, or whomever or whatever, OR ME..;)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assumption

Quote:
Definition of ASSUMPTION

1
a : the taking up of a person into heaven
b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2
: a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
Take a 2 minute break! Play our
fun, fast vocab game. »
3
: the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4
: arrogance, pretension
5
a : an assuming that something is true
b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
6
: the taking over of another's debts
See assumption defined for English-language learners
See assumption defined for kids
Examples of ASSUMPTION

I made the assumption that he was coming, so I was surprised when he didn't show up.
He will come home tomorrow. At least, that's my assumption.
Many scientific assumptions about Mars were wrong.
I'm telling you our arrival time on the assumption that you will check to see whether or not our flight is on time before you come to the airport.
Her plan is based on the underlying assumption that the economy will improve in the near future.
her assumption of the presidency
the buyer's assumption of debt
Origin of ASSUMPTION

Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to ASSUMPTION
Synonyms
given, hypothetical, if, postulate, premise (also premiss), presumption, presupposition, supposition
Antonyms
humility, modesty, unassumingness, unpretentiousness


"Assumption" is not a synonym for "hypothesis".

A hypothesis is a provisional version of a "theory". An idea that you are testing in an experiment.

I have a hypothesis that the moon is made of green cheese.
I will test my hypothesis by testing it experimentally by....examining the Apollo astronauts' suits to see if there is any green cheese residue on the soles of the foot ware part of their space suits. My experiment is based upon the "assumption" that they havent washed down the returning astronuats' suits yet- to obliterate the evidence.

You see?

They are not the same thing. Not even close to being synonyms.

But yes- science does require making assumptions- both in the colloguial, and in the scientific sense.



Last edited by naturalplastic on 10 Feb 2015, 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Feb 2015, 1:15 am

And besides: Your dictionary defines "assumption" the same way I do: as something taken for granted as a fact. So what was the point of posting that?



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10 Feb 2015, 2:03 am

naturalplastic wrote:
aghogday wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
eric76 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
eric76 wrote:
Narrator wrote:
I asked this in another thread, but as it was off-topic, I decided to make a new thread.

In science, is it alright to make assumptions? Here's the what-if:

Let's say that John's scientific experience is substantial. Can John make assumptions based on that experience, in the process of his thesis, and still call his conclusions valid?


It's not clear to me what you mean. Reading some of the responses did nothing to help.

Precisely what do you mean by "assumptions based on that experience"? My guess is, you want to create an appeal to authority. That may work well in subjects like literature, but it does not apply in fields of science.

There is no "it's true because Dr Bletch said so" in science.

So if that is what you are referring to, then the answer is clearly "NO".


"An assumption based upon prior experience" is NOT an "assumption". An "assumption" is something taken on faith, and is unproven. If prior repeated expirement has shown that the moon is not made of green cheese then -using the proven fact that the moon is not made of green cheese as basis for further observation- is NOT making an 'assumption'. Its using proven fact.


That would be one kind of assumption.


What do you insist on contradicting yourself?


According the definition of "assumption" agreed upon in this thread "taking something unproven as fact" it is NOT an "assumption". If prior experiment has proven it-then youre not taking "something not proven as fact". If it IS proven then its proven, and Its not an assumption.


NO, that is NOT the agreed upon DEFINITION OF ASSUMPTION IN THIS THREAD, AS OBVIOUSLY NOT EVERYONE AGREES WITH IT, including me, who has already stated that clearly, and defined it before, professionally as such, here in this thread, as below.

ASSUMPTION IS SYNONYM FOR HYPOTHESIS, AND HYPOTHESIS CAN RELY ON PAST ANECDOTAL EXPERIENCES WHETHER PROVEN OR NOT for FORMULATION of Hypothesis.

Merriam AND Webster is AN authority on THAT; NOT YOU, budding journalist, or whomever or whatever, OR ME..;)

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/assumption

Quote:
Definition of ASSUMPTION

1
a : the taking up of a person into heaven
b capitalized : August 15 observed in commemoration of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary
2
: a taking to or upon oneself <the assumption of a new position>
Take a 2 minute break! Play our
fun, fast vocab game. »
3
: the act of laying claim to or taking possession of something <the assumption of power>
4
: arrogance, pretension
5
a : an assuming that something is true
b : a fact or statement (as a proposition, axiom, postulate, or notion) taken for granted
6
: the taking over of another's debts
See assumption defined for English-language learners
See assumption defined for kids
Examples of ASSUMPTION

I made the assumption that he was coming, so I was surprised when he didn't show up.
He will come home tomorrow. At least, that's my assumption.
Many scientific assumptions about Mars were wrong.
I'm telling you our arrival time on the assumption that you will check to see whether or not our flight is on time before you come to the airport.
Her plan is based on the underlying assumption that the economy will improve in the near future.
her assumption of the presidency
the buyer's assumption of debt
Origin of ASSUMPTION

Middle English, from Late Latin assumption-, assumptio taking up, from Latin assumere
First Known Use: 13th century
Related to ASSUMPTION
Synonyms
given, hypothetical, if, postulate, premise (also premiss), presumption, presupposition, supposition

Antonyms
humility, modesty, unassumingness, unpretentiousness


"Assumption" is not a synonym for "hypothesis".

A hypothesis is a provisional version of a "theory". An idea that you are testing in an experiment.

I have a hypothesis that the moon is made of green cheese.
I will test my hypothesis by testing it experimentally by....examining the Apollo astronauts' suits to see if there is any green cheese residue on the soles of the foot ware part of their space suits. My experiment is based upon the "assumption" that they havent washed down the returning astronuats' suits yet- to obliterate the evidence.

You see?

They are not the same thing. Not even close to being synonyms.

But yes- science does require making assumptions- both in the colloguial, and in the scientific sense.


OMG, please don't tell me you THINK you are smarter than the Merriam-Webster Dictionary.

The dent dude already attempted that on the frigging def. of Science.

A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.

Capice..?

Or are you STILL SMARTER THAN the dictionary.

If so, believe as you will..

Your issue, not mine. ;)..

With all due respect, of course..:)

AND by the way, the bold feature, is kinda crappy, as it does not ALWAYS stand out, AND PART OF WHY I USE CAPS, so you might have to look for the bolded synonyms above to find the word HYPOTHETICAL IN THERE, in what, WHERE and WHY I QUOTED IT. :)


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Last edited by aghogday on 10 Feb 2015, 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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10 Feb 2015, 2:06 am

If you can't make assumptions, you can't do science, then you are just doing aimless experiments which amount to nothing.


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10 Feb 2015, 2:21 am

aghogday wrote:
A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.


You are seriously missing a very important point -- the language as used in science is, by necessity, more precise than that used by non-scientists. What science doesn't need is for people to start playing word games based on the ambiguity of human languages.

If you use 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' as synonyms in science, you will be thought of as being some kind of village idiot with no credibility whatsoever. After all, if you have no comprehension of the most basic terms in science, then who would expect you to be able to get something more complicated at all correct?



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10 Feb 2015, 2:41 am

eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.


You are seriously missing a very important point -- the language as used in science is, by necessity, more precise than that used by non-scientists. What science doesn't need is for people to start playing word games based on the ambiguity of human languages.

If you use 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' as synonyms in science, you will be thought of as being some kind of village idiot with no credibility whatsoever. After all, if you have no comprehension of the most basic terms in science, then who would expect you to be able to get something more complicated at all correct?


Dude we are not talking about proper language for a research paper here, we are talking about semantics and definitions of words.

It is perfectly acceptable to talk about assumptions as synonyms for hypotheticals in science, in a casual conversation OR ON THE INTERWEBZ.

I was a technical writer for the government in my many hats there, and in red tape land, the restrictions when actually writing documents is much different than discussing them informally.

Additionally, I was employed as a research associate in my younger years, and I am more than familiar with the ins and outs of scientific research as I actually did it for pay.

We all SHOULD know assumptions in science are hypotheticals, at least in common sense language, and that IS PRECISELY WHAT THE MERIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY SPEAKS TO, COMMON SENSE, not rigid black and white thinking, as the English Language DOES NOT work like that, as it is ALL METAPHOR AT CORE.

SO in other words, lighten up, and enjoy science if you can and will, without worrying about all the P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's, as that is not the concern of lay people here, unless they want it to be, and that's okay too.

But never the less, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has this common sense issue, already resolved, for black and white thinkers, if they can move outside the box of thinking, per P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's. :)


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10 Feb 2015, 2:50 am

aghogday wrote:
eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.


You are seriously missing a very important point -- the language as used in science is, by necessity, more precise than that used by non-scientists. What science doesn't need is for people to start playing word games based on the ambiguity of human languages.

If you use 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' as synonyms in science, you will be thought of as being some kind of village idiot with no credibility whatsoever. After all, if you have no comprehension of the most basic terms in science, then who would expect you to be able to get something more complicated at all correct?


Dude we are not talking about proper language for a research paper here, we are talking about semantics and definitions of words.

It is perfectly acceptable to talk about assumptions as synonyms for hypotheticals in science, in a casual conversation OR ON THE INTERWEBZ.

I was a technical writer for the government in my many hats there, and in red tape land, the restrictions when actually writing documents is much different than discussing them informally.

Additionally, I was employed as a research associate in my younger years, and I am more than familiar with the ins and outs of scientific research as I actually did it for pay.

We all SHOULD know assumptions in science are hypotheticals, at least in common sense language, and that IS PRECISELY WHAT THE MERIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY SPEAKS TO, COMMON SENSE, not rigid black and white thinking, as the English Language DOES NOT work like that, as it is ALL METAPHOR AT CORE.

SO in other words, lighten up, and enjoy science if you can and will, without worrying about all the P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's, as that is not the concern of lay people here, unless they want it to be, and that's okay too.

But never the less, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has this common sense issue, already resolved, for black and white thinkers, if they can move outside the box of thinking, per P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's. :)


You cannot intelligently discuss science if you don't even understand the language.



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10 Feb 2015, 2:55 am

eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.


You are seriously missing a very important point -- the language as used in science is, by necessity, more precise than that used by non-scientists. What science doesn't need is for people to start playing word games based on the ambiguity of human languages.

If you use 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' as synonyms in science, you will be thought of as being some kind of village idiot with no credibility whatsoever. After all, if you have no comprehension of the most basic terms in science, then who would expect you to be able to get something more complicated at all correct?


Dude we are not talking about proper language for a research paper here, we are talking about semantics and definitions of words.

It is perfectly acceptable to talk about assumptions as synonyms for hypotheticals in science, in a casual conversation OR ON THE INTERWEBZ.

I was a technical writer for the government in my many hats there, and in red tape land, the restrictions when actually writing documents is much different than discussing them informally.

Additionally, I was employed as a research associate in my younger years, and I am more than familiar with the ins and outs of scientific research as I actually did it for pay.

We all SHOULD know assumptions in science are hypotheticals, at least in common sense language, and that IS PRECISELY WHAT THE MERIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY SPEAKS TO, COMMON SENSE, not rigid black and white thinking, as the English Language DOES NOT work like that, as it is ALL METAPHOR AT CORE.

SO in other words, lighten up, and enjoy science if you can and will, without worrying about all the P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's, as that is not the concern of lay people here, unless they want it to be, and that's okay too.

But never the less, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has this common sense issue, already resolved, for black and white thinkers, if they can move outside the box of thinking, per P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's. :)


You cannot intelligently discuss science if you don't even understand the language.


Oh please dude, don't try the insulting the intelligence thingy with me.

I am more than educated well, with three degrees in science and art.

Top of the class dude, and I have the documentation to prove it.

It takes more than just jargon to understand science.

And any REAL SCIENTIST can tell you that. :)


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10 Feb 2015, 3:03 am

Ok, now that we understand the issue with definitions,
we can also understand the issue with how people answer the question.
And each will answer it according to their own understanding.
Semantics aside, I think we're all headed in the right direction.


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10 Feb 2015, 3:04 am

Narrator wrote:
Ok, now that we understand the issue with definitions,
we can also understand the issue with how people answer the question.
And each will answer it according to their own understanding.
Semantics aside, I think we're all headed in the right direction.


I AGREE..:)


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10 Feb 2015, 6:00 am

aghogday wrote:
eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
eric76 wrote:
aghogday wrote:
A hypothesis and a frigging hypothetical AND an assumption are ALL SYNONYMS.


You are seriously missing a very important point -- the language as used in science is, by necessity, more precise than that used by non-scientists. What science doesn't need is for people to start playing word games based on the ambiguity of human languages.

If you use 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' as synonyms in science, you will be thought of as being some kind of village idiot with no credibility whatsoever. After all, if you have no comprehension of the most basic terms in science, then who would expect you to be able to get something more complicated at all correct?


Dude we are not talking about proper language for a research paper here, we are talking about semantics and definitions of words.

It is perfectly acceptable to talk about assumptions as synonyms for hypotheticals in science, in a casual conversation OR ON THE INTERWEBZ.

I was a technical writer for the government in my many hats there, and in red tape land, the restrictions when actually writing documents is much different than discussing them informally.

Additionally, I was employed as a research associate in my younger years, and I am more than familiar with the ins and outs of scientific research as I actually did it for pay.

We all SHOULD know assumptions in science are hypotheticals, at least in common sense language, and that IS PRECISELY WHAT THE MERIAM-WEBSTER DICTIONARY SPEAKS TO, COMMON SENSE, not rigid black and white thinking, as the English Language DOES NOT work like that, as it is ALL METAPHOR AT CORE.

SO in other words, lighten up, and enjoy science if you can and will, without worrying about all the P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's, as that is not the concern of lay people here, unless they want it to be, and that's okay too.

But never the less, the Merriam-Webster dictionary has this common sense issue, already resolved, for black and white thinkers, if they can move outside the box of thinking, per P's and Q's, dotted i's and crossed t's. :)


You cannot intelligently discuss science if you don't even understand the language.


Oh please dude, don't try the insulting the intelligence thingy with me.

I am more than educated well, with three degrees in science and art.

Top of the class dude, and I have the documentation to prove it.

It takes more than just jargon to understand science.

And any REAL SCIENTIST can tell you that. :)


We're not talking about jargon. We are talking about definitions of some of the most basic terms common to all sciences. I have never come across any situation in science where the terms 'hypothesis' and 'assumption' are interchangeable.

Perhaps you know of an example in science where they are interchangeable. If so, please enlighten us.

You need to understand that synonyms do not mean that the words are equivalent -- only that each has one or more definitions that are sufficiently similar to each other.

For example, 'shut' and 'close' are synonyms. You could say "shut the door" or "close the door" and be equally correct. However, if you were to say "I am shut to the solution to this problem" instead of "I am close to the solution to this problem", you would leave people scratching their heads wondering what you mean.



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10 Feb 2015, 9:05 am

The word "assumption" can be used to mean "making hypotheticals".

But the way scientists use the term its almost the exact opposite of how they use the word "assumption".

The "hypothesis" is the thing being tested. Your "assumptions" are the factors you are NOT testing because you take those factors as given.