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AspieOtaku
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16 Mar 2015, 5:49 pm


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16 Mar 2015, 5:53 pm

sophisticated wrote:
Janissy wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Why you must never trust a scientist:

Quote:
The Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological hoax in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. These fragments consisted of parts of a skull and jawbone, said to have been collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, East Sussex, England. The Latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni ("Dawson's dawn-man", after the collector Charles Dawson) was given to the specimen. The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan deliberately combined with the cranium of a fully developed modern human.

The Piltdown hoax is perhaps the most famous paleoanthropological hoax ever to have been perpetrated. It is prominent for two reasons: the attention paid to the issue of human evolution, and the length of time (more than 40 years) that elapsed from its discovery to its full exposure as a forgery.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man


And yet you just did trust scientists: the ones who exposed it as a forgery. It was through the scientific method :idea: that it was eventually exposed as a forgery.


The same method can give you different answers. Never trust a scientist and never trust the scientific method. Be sceptical and ask questions.


If you don't trust the scientific method, why did you bring up Piltdown Man? It was the scientific method that exposed it as a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Quote:
From the outset, some scientists expressed skepticism about the Piltdown find (see above).

G.S. Miller, for example, observed in 1915 that "deliberate malice could hardly have been more successful than the hazards of deposition in so breaking the fossils as to give free scope to individual judgment in fitting the parts together."[11] In the decades prior to its exposure as a forgery in 1953, scientists increasingly regarded Piltdown as an enigmatic aberration inconsistent with the path of hominid evolution as demonstrated by fossils found elsewhere.[1] Skeptical scientists only increased in number as more fossils were found.


Being skeptical and asking questions is part of the scientific method.



Last edited by Janissy on 16 Mar 2015, 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Mar 2015, 5:53 pm

Piltdown Man was proven to be a hoax rather quickly. Good example of Science in action!! !! !! !



Last edited by kraftiekortie on 16 Mar 2015, 6:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Mar 2015, 5:56 pm

Janissy wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Janissy wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Why you must never trust a scientist:

Quote:
The Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological hoax in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. These fragments consisted of parts of a skull and jawbone, said to have been collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, East Sussex, England. The Latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni ("Dawson's dawn-man", after the collector Charles Dawson) was given to the specimen. The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan deliberately combined with the cranium of a fully developed modern human.

The Piltdown hoax is perhaps the most famous paleoanthropological hoax ever to have been perpetrated. It is prominent for two reasons: the attention paid to the issue of human evolution, and the length of time (more than 40 years) that elapsed from its discovery to its full exposure as a forgery.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man


And yet you just did trust scientists: the ones who exposed it as a forgery. It was through the scientific method :idea: that it was eventually exposed as a forgery.


The same method can give you different answers. Never trust a scientist and never trust the scientific method. Be sceptical and ask questions.


If you don't trust the scientific method, why did you bring up Piltdown Man? It was the scientific method that exposed it as a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Quote:
From the outset, some scientists expressed skepticism about the Piltdown find (see above).

G.S. Miller, for example, observed in 1915 that "deliberate malice could hardly have been more successful than the hazards of deposition in so breaking the fossils as to give free scope to individual judgment in fitting the parts together."[11] In the decades prior to its exposure as a forgery in 1953, scientists increasingly regarded Piltdown as an enigmatic aberration inconsistent with the path of hominid evolution as demonstrated by fossils found elsewhere.[1] Skeptical scientists only increased in number as more fossils were found.


Being skeptical and asking questions is part of the scientific method.


It's not the scientific method per se. It is the human senses that were gifted to us by God.



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16 Mar 2015, 5:58 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
You mean William Godwin, lover of Mary Wollstonecraft?


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16 Mar 2015, 7:34 pm

sophisticated wrote:
Janissy wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Janissy wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Why you must never trust a scientist:

Quote:
The Piltdown Man was a paleoanthropological hoax in which bone fragments were presented as the fossilised remains of a previously unknown early human. These fragments consisted of parts of a skull and jawbone, said to have been collected in 1912 from a gravel pit at Piltdown, East Sussex, England. The Latin name Eoanthropus dawsoni ("Dawson's dawn-man", after the collector Charles Dawson) was given to the specimen. The significance of the specimen remained the subject of controversy until it was exposed in 1953 as a forgery, consisting of the lower jawbone of an orangutan deliberately combined with the cranium of a fully developed modern human.

The Piltdown hoax is perhaps the most famous paleoanthropological hoax ever to have been perpetrated. It is prominent for two reasons: the attention paid to the issue of human evolution, and the length of time (more than 40 years) that elapsed from its discovery to its full exposure as a forgery.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man


And yet you just did trust scientists: the ones who exposed it as a forgery. It was through the scientific method :idea: that it was eventually exposed as a forgery.


The same method can give you different answers. Never trust a scientist and never trust the scientific method. Be sceptical and ask questions.


If you don't trust the scientific method, why did you bring up Piltdown Man? It was the scientific method that exposed it as a forgery.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piltdown_Man

Quote:
From the outset, some scientists expressed skepticism about the Piltdown find (see above).

G.S. Miller, for example, observed in 1915 that "deliberate malice could hardly have been more successful than the hazards of deposition in so breaking the fossils as to give free scope to individual judgment in fitting the parts together."[11] In the decades prior to its exposure as a forgery in 1953, scientists increasingly regarded Piltdown as an enigmatic aberration inconsistent with the path of hominid evolution as demonstrated by fossils found elsewhere.[1] Skeptical scientists only increased in number as more fossils were found.


Being skeptical and asking questions is part of the scientific method.


It's not the scientific method per se. It is the human senses that were gifted to us by God.

I like where this is going!



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16 Mar 2015, 8:20 pm

sophisticated wrote:
Never trust a scientist and never trust the scientific method. Be sceptical and ask questions.

Faith expects trust, not doubt.
Science expects doubt, not trust.

You want us to be skeptical of science, but to you also want us to accept your evidence of God without skepticism.

Science expects us to be skeptical too, but not selectively.

"Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."


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16 Mar 2015, 8:49 pm

It appears to be going somewhere I nearly took it yesterday. Namely we all use observation and experiment to predict possible future events. Also the use of the piltdown man as an example of the failings of science is a rather stupid idea. As not only was the hoax quickly exposed, it also demonstrate's what we have been banging on about this whole thread ie the requirement for any claim to have supporting evidence. Without the requirement for supporting evidence there is literally an infinite amount of variations on what can be called plausible. Piltdown man style frauds would be the least of our worries.


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16 Mar 2015, 8:58 pm

Sophisticated you claim to be skeptical about science, yet you appear to know almost nothing about the areas of science you are skeptical about. I find this position to rather intellectually barren. I think what you mean to say is "trust science when you get in a car, an airplane, a train, trust science when you use a GPS device or anything electronic etc etc. But REJECT science whenever it conflicts with your view of the world and how it came to be."

You are not skeptical, to be truly skeptical you would need more knowledge than you appear to have. You simply reject all notion of anything that gives the slightest hint of disagreement with your ideology. This I'd why you know sweet fa about evolution because it is not required knowledge in your narrow world.


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16 Mar 2015, 9:23 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
then where is the evidence for this.


Prayer/faith helps for those of a religious persuasion in recovery from operations and there is some link to longevity in healthy ageing. Placebo effect is just the influence of the mind in treatment. Prayer in this context is no different from giving somebody a sugar pill and telling them it will relieve a headache. The impact is the same.



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16 Mar 2015, 9:27 pm

Narrator wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Seriously, there are only maybe 2 true scientists on this forum. The rest of us do the best we can with what we know and the journey we've made. Only a true brain surgeon can tell you ALL of the ins and outs of brain surgery. In the same way, there are few if any true theologians here. I studied theology for a year - it gives me a big step up from your average "Bible study" class, but it doesn't make me an expert.


I worked as a "true scientist" for a number of years. What exactly is your point?

My point is this. (And perhaps I'm a little jaded with arguments going in circles.) In a forum of mostly lay people, polarized on an issue, neither side is going to budge. On top of that, people expect lay people to put up or shut up. Sometimes the adversarial nature of this type of forum just seems bizarre - even more so when I get caught up in it.


Yes I see your point. Laypeople provide opinions on topics based largely on belief. I assume you are familiar with the callers who ring Neil Mitchell on 3AW



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16 Mar 2015, 10:19 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Narrator wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Seriously, there are only maybe 2 true scientists on this forum. The rest of us do the best we can with what we know and the journey we've made. Only a true brain surgeon can tell you ALL of the ins and outs of brain surgery. In the same way, there are few if any true theologians here. I studied theology for a year - it gives me a big step up from your average "Bible study" class, but it doesn't make me an expert.


I worked as a "true scientist" for a number of years. What exactly is your point?

My point is this. (And perhaps I'm a little jaded with arguments going in circles.) In a forum of mostly lay people, polarized on an issue, neither side is going to budge. On top of that, people expect lay people to put up or shut up. Sometimes the adversarial nature of this type of forum just seems bizarre - even more so when I get caught up in it.


Yes I see your point. Laypeople provide opinions on topics based largely on belief. I assume you are familiar with the callers who ring Neil Mitchell on 3AW

I've heard the odd sound bite. If I listen to talkback, it's more to Jon Faine's show on ABC's 774 and things aren't much better there. lol


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16 Mar 2015, 10:35 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
It appears to be going somewhere I nearly took it yesterday. Namely we all use observation and experiment to predict possible future events. Also the use of the piltdown man as an example of the failings of science is a rather stupid idea. As not only was the hoax quickly exposed, it also demonstrate's what we have been banging on about this whole thread ie the requirement for any claim to have supporting evidence. Without the requirement for supporting evidence there is literally an infinite amount of variations on what can be called plausible. Piltdown man style frauds would be the least of our worries.
For 40 years Piltdown Man was paraded as the "missing link". If a knowledgeable and honest man had been permitted to examine the "evidence" it wouldn't have lasted 40 minutes. Other hoaxes (like Peking Man) have been more craftily managed with the "evidence" being "lost" or securely locked away from prying eyes and discerning examination. Nonscience cannot risk another humiliating exposure of a fraud.

As I've said before; real science is good stuff, but what you lot are flogging is pure ideology falsely claiming to be "science". Real science clearly condemns your ideological speculations as scientifically impossible, a total fraud in ALL of its claims. You, personally, have repeatedly shown yourself to be not an honestly deceived fool but a deliberate fraudster ignoring all the evidence... a charlatan maliciously selling a nonsense to any naïve , credulous or otherwise vulnerable victim. That is child abuse big time!

There are proofs of the existence of an uncaused First Cause but they require the use of reason. You deviously prohibit the use of reason by claiming that it doesn't exist because it is metaphysical stuff that cannot be dissected even under a microscope. You protect your nonsense superstition by arbitrarily requiring the premise that everything is physical... matter and energy. Codswallop! Deliberate fraud!



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16 Mar 2015, 10:49 pm

cyberdad wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
then where is the evidence for this.


Prayer/faith helps for those of a religious persuasion in recovery from operations and there is some link to longevity in healthy ageing. Placebo effect is just the influence of the mind in treatment. Prayer in this context is no different from giving somebody a sugar pill and telling them it will relieve a headache. The impact is the same.


Truly it's sad when folks get all caught up in metaphors per forms, and don't realize that completely different metaphors describe the same essence of the power of human emotion unleashed in focus of mind and body balance.

Of course metaphors are tools of words that guide one to control of the essence of one's emotions.

Placebo, faith, hope, and belief can all describe the basic essence of the power of unconditional positive human emotional and sensory energy focused toward an aim in life, with visual imagery in imagination and creativity as the most affective and effective way to get results.

And of course, metaphors are tools of forms of abstract constructs of symbols put together to guide one to manifest an aim of life into flesh and blood reality through the power of the essence of the human emotions and senses enhanced to heal and power the desire into action and fruition in reality come true.

It doesn't matter if one calls it placebo, GOD, Jesus, Allah, Atman, Vishnu, him or capital HIM, IF one believes with this emotional power of belief, faith, or hope in imagination of visual imagery through the power of creativity in manifestation of the aim in visually imaged mind come TRUTH IN REALITY, WHEN AFFECTIVELY THE UNDERLYING ESSENCE OF EMOTION IN HEALING POWER AND OR TO JUST DO THE AIM COMES TO FRUITION IN FLESH AN BLOOD LIFE.

SADLY though, some folks come to think of the tools as reality, per whatever the tool of word or words of phrase is attached to the essence of healing and powering emotion, as the reality, instead of the essence of emotions of belief, faith, and hope that is the reality of what heals and powers the human being to achieve aims visually imaged in mind.

It makes me giggle when people say it was only the placebo effect, like that is nothing.

That nothing allows me to push 930 LBS with my legs 14 times, and growl like a gorilla untamed.

The thing about it is, is, some folks do not ever master the power of belief, faith, hope or the so called placebo effect that is the higher power of human being gifted by Mother Nature TRUE, and the folks WHO do, through whatever tools of symbols allowing bio-feedback to eventually master and control, through human relative free will, the inner chi, KI, frigging metaphor of placebo effect, DAO, Kundalini Serpent, and or Holy Ghost in the creative state of theta wave brain wave state of mind, just DO NOT ACHIEVE THE HIGHER HUMAN POTENTIAL THAT IS AVAILABLE FREE OF CHARGE, ALL NATURAL, ALL INNATE, ALL INSTINCTUAL, AND INTUITIVELY ACHIEVABLE TO MOVE REAL MOUNTAINS IN life for folks WHO EXERCISE THESE OTHER HUMAN INTELLIGENCES THAT OUR ANCESTORS DID MUCH MORE INCREDIBLE STUFF WITH, THAN domesticated mechanical cognition literal minded folks who do not master their physical intelligence in creative ways driving inner human emotional regulation for power and healing, senses, AND COGNITIVE EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONING IN focus, and or short term working memory to make real human miracles come true.

It's 'time' for folks to realize the essence is the TRUTH and LIGHT in human emotions and senses of the powers that be to heal and POWER ONE TO POTENTIAL 'GREATNESS'; NOT the symbol of empty skeletons of TOOLS OF words, no matter if they are placebo effect, faith, hope, belief, relative free will, Kundalini Serpent, Chi, KI, DAO, or WTF, if one wants to call it WTF.

The essence is truth AND LIGHT AND THAT ESSENCE IS HUMAN EMOTIONS AND SENSES UNLEASHED AND MASTERED THROUGH INTERNAL RELATIVE FREE WILL TO DO AMAZING HUMAN POTENTIAL STUFF.

BUT ONLY WITH PRACTICE AND THE UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS NO EMPTY PROMISE AND THE REALEST DEAL OF ALL IN HUMAN LIFE, CAN this come fruition in the TRUTH OF REALITY.

People who don't get it JUST DON'T GET IT AND JUST DON'T DO IT.

That's kinda sad to me BUT TRUTH TOO, AND A SOURCE OF HUMAN misery and SUFFERING, AND The benefit of whatever abstract symbols vehicle and vessel the housing of myths, science, or whatever for the essence of the power of human emotions and senses unleashed and released to do these REAL LIFE MIRACLES THAT I FOR ONE, can prove are real, in A moment's notice by whipping it out with Internet PROOF, OF HUMAN MIRACLES COME TRUTH, through this so-called placebo effect that can move half-a-ton for me slowly, and steadily, 14 times with REAL APE STRENGTH.

OTHER APES DON'T KNOW THEY CAN'T DO STUFF, SO THAT'S probably part of why they and other animals make most humans look like little or BIG WIMPS WHEN the flesh and blood hits the real highways of STRENGTH IN life.

There are different kinds of intelligences but the NON-INTELLIGENCE OF cynicism, NIHILISM and disbelief is a REAL GAME KILLER FOR MANY HUMAN BEINGS.

Hehe! but try to convince a 'know it all' that real life human magicK, per fulfilling human potential is real.

'Dudes and dudettes', it IS the PLACEBO EFFECT, IT'S JUST THAT SOME PEOPLE CANNOT MASTER IT FOR GREAT THINGS, OR ANYTHING AT ALL, RELATIVELY SPEAKING, AND OTHER FOLKS WHO TRULY MASTER IT, and enhance it, CAN MOVE metaphorical mountains in life; same as religions metaphor the SAME GENERAL ESSENCE OF HUMAN BEING HIGHER POTENTIAL, Truth in action, when flesh and blood miracles come TRUTH, IN THE ESSENCE OF WHAT can be real with human being higher potential TRUTH and LIGHT IN ACTION COME FRUITION IN FLESH AND BLOOD LIFE.

MY LIFE is the placebo effect all the frigging time, and it is simply bliss come flesh and blood truth.

But OMG, it takes thousands of hours REAL flesh and blood life WORK PRACTICING AND ENHANCING CREATIVE physical intelligence DRIVING emotional regulation, sensory integration, AND COGNITIVE EXECUTIVE FUNCTIONING, INCLUDING focus AND short term working memory all working together in synergy with many other human intelligences and or EMOTIONAL AND SENSORY NUANCED INTERNALLY CONTROLLED forces to keep increasing human potential, AS REAL FLESH AND BLOOD STUFF.

SCHOOL DOES NOT TEACH THIS STUFF; OVERALL, IT TEACHES FOLKS TO BE external COGS IN MACHINES OF CULTURE, and that is the cause of much human misery and suffering that one sees in APPROXIMATELY 50% of folks in our society in the U.S. on some kind of pain medication for chronic pain; one-third of school age children who are now assessed as type two-prediabetic; and sky rocketing prescriptions of psychotropic drugs for mental imbalances that are slightly more effective than the frigging average of the placebo effect across a modern society that lives an externally controlled life, overall more, than an internal mastered life through enhancing CREATIVE physical intelligence THAT DRIVES emotional regulation, sensory integration, and cognitive executive functioning through better focus and short term working memory.

This IS obviously PART of THE REASON, RATES OF SO-CALLED AUTISM ARE SKYROCKETING, TOO.

JUST SITTING STILL, AND LOSING PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE IS ENOUGH TO EXACERBATE THE CLINICAL SYMPTOMS OF AUTISM, obviously, as deficits in emotional regulation, sensory integration, cognitive executive functioning per focus and short term working memory are clinical symptoms described for the abstract construct of Autism, as at least a partially culturally environmental influenced disorder, or perhaps more appropriately described as an imbalance of potential human innate, instinctual and intuitive intelligences not fully employed, developed or practiced in real flesh and blood life.


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16 Mar 2015, 11:02 pm

One example of faith vs skepticism is the age of the earth.

Under the faith regime, one man went to the trouble of adding up the generations mentioned in the Bible and came up with a 6,000 year old earth. Faith and arithmetic. It's a "no skeptics allowed" area.

Conversely, science looked at layers and layers of earth beneath us, going down past where creatures were converted into oil, and formed hypotheses. Unlike faith, skeptics are required. And after all the skeptical testing we reached a history far longer than a few thousand years.


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16 Mar 2015, 11:05 pm

Oldavid wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
It appears to be going somewhere I nearly took it yesterday. Namely we all use observation and experiment to predict possible future events. Also the use of the piltdown man as an example of the failings of science is a rather stupid idea. As not only was the hoax quickly exposed, it also demonstrate's what we have been banging on about this whole thread ie the requirement for any claim to have supporting evidence. Without the requirement for supporting evidence there is literally an infinite amount of variations on what can be called plausible. Piltdown man style frauds would be the least of our worries.
For 40 years Piltdown Man was paraded as the "missing link". If a knowledgeable and honest man had been permitted to examine the "evidence" it wouldn't have lasted 40 minutes. Other hoaxes (like Peking Man) have been more craftily managed with the "evidence" being "lost" or securely locked away from prying eyes and discerning examination. Nonscience cannot risk another humiliating exposure of a fraud.

As I've said before; real science is good stuff, but what you lot are flogging is pure ideology falsely claiming to be "science". Real science clearly condemns your ideological speculations as scientifically impossible, a total fraud in ALL of its claims. You, personally, have repeatedly shown yourself to be not an honestly deceived fool but a deliberate fraudster ignoring all the evidence... a charlatan maliciously selling a nonsense to any naïve , credulous or otherwise vulnerable victim. That is child abuse big time!

There are proofs of the existence of an uncaused First Cause but they require the use of reason. You deviously prohibit the use of reason by claiming that it doesn't exist because it is metaphysical stuff that cannot be dissected even under a microscope. You protect your nonsense superstition by arbitrarily requiring the premise that everything is physical... matter and energy. Codswallop! Deliberate fraud!

Don't forget about the outright fraudulent papers that get published by mutual admiration societies…oops…I meant "peer reviewed journals." Granted, they do publish retractions once fake studies are discovered and science does succeed in self-correction as is intended. However, one must wonder how they survive the peer review process to get published in the first place.