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Is there any proof God exists?

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Lintar
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28 Mar 2015, 6:28 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Didn't the Big Bang create spacetime? Without that there wouldn't be much causality. And we both know that even if I came up with a scientific article it is unlikely that either of us could interpret the data and the mathematics, unless you happen to be a theoretical physicist.


Any - any - act of creation presupposes the existence of causality, so to say that 'the Big Bang created spacetime' is to acknowledge the existence of causality on a level that transcends spacetime.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:35 pm

trollcatman wrote:
There are also events that are probabilistic and not deterministic, such as radioactive decay. That just functions outside of causality (or maybe it has a cause that we have not yet been able to identify). Perhaps universes pop into existence in a probabilistic way, there is just no way to know right now. And to continue on my train of unfounded thought: perhaps universes cause other universes to exist. That could possibly explain the finely-tuned universe, as finely-tuned universes may be better at causing new universes to exist. Of course there is zero evidence for this, it's just something I was thinking of a while ago.


'Trollcatman', you don't sound very confident here. I had always been given the very strong impression that extreme atheists (like Dan Dennett, Susan Blackmore) believed that, regardless of the probabilistic basis of Q.M., nature was, at bottom, purely deterministic. Now you are trying to say it might not be. So which is it?

If nature is not strictly deterministic, then free will exists. Free will is an issue that makes most, though certainly not all, atheists uncomfortable.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:37 pm

daniel1948 wrote:
Well, yesterday morning I spent so much time posting to this thread that I was later than I wanted to be getting to my exercising. My exercising is important to me because it is critical for staying healthy, especially at my age. So, as enjoyable as it is to argue whether or not there's a magic man in the sky (or an ineffable non-corporeal intelligence outside of space and time who for reasons unknown decided to create a universe with a world as malformed as this one), I'm dropping out of this thread. I'm not leaving WP, just this thread. Have fun, all. Last one out, please turn off the lights.


Admitting defeat? That's understandable :mrgreen:



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28 Mar 2015, 6:40 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
Very sensible move, Daniel.

I'm sure the "Big Daddy in the Sky" would approve, wholeheartedly!

I'm sure he's laughing up there!


A 'big daddy' who also happens to be a strawman. Why do committed atheists always insist that the big sky daddy is what ALL theists believe in? I guess they do this because they can't argue against the more sophisticated philosophical claims made by those who point out the logical necessities that naturally follow given the existence of the reality we know. It's just too much of a challenge for them.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:47 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:
I have never yet, found a reasonable argument in favour of "god"....


Keep searching, you'll eventually come around to the truth. That's the key; to not be too hasty in reaching a conclusion, one way or the other.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:50 pm

Booyakasha wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
I don't even read that guy's responses lol first it's too long, second it doesn't make sense. I don't think he's sane, is he in an institution?

Did you seriously just post this on an autistic spectrum forum? Go ahead and report me to the mods, but I'm wondering if you're an NT and/or a troll. It's one thing to debate ideas and hold the views of others as ridiculous. It's entirely something else to attack someone outright with that level of insensitivity.


People, let's play nicely please.


Yes, we don't want this thread closed down by the moderators!



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28 Mar 2015, 6:51 pm

Janissy wrote:
The incorruptile saints are examples of embalming and microclimates. Lenin is similarly preserved although not at all saintly.
Sez you. There is an example of one thrown into a pit with others and lime to speed up the decomposition process.

Pope John XXIII (also not at all saintly) is preserved with world best preservation tactics and "triple sealed" in an inert atmosphere but still inexorably deteriorating.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:51 pm

Lintar wrote:
daniel1948 wrote:
Well, yesterday morning I spent so much time posting to this thread that I was later than I wanted to be getting to my exercising. My exercising is important to me because it is critical for staying healthy, especially at my age. So, as enjoyable as it is to argue whether or not there's a magic man in the sky (or an ineffable non-corporeal intelligence outside of space and time who for reasons unknown decided to create a universe with a world as malformed as this one), I'm dropping out of this thread. I'm not leaving WP, just this thread. Have fun, all. Last one out, please turn off the lights.


Admitting defeat? That's understandable :mrgreen:

Eh…don't be too hard on him. This stuff will take over your life if you don't watch it. I'm only in here frequently at the moment because this project I'm working on is trying my patience.



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28 Mar 2015, 6:53 pm

Lintar wrote:
Booyakasha wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
I don't even read that guy's responses lol first it's too long, second it doesn't make sense. I don't think he's sane, is he in an institution?

Did you seriously just post this on an autistic spectrum forum? Go ahead and report me to the mods, but I'm wondering if you're an NT and/or a troll. It's one thing to debate ideas and hold the views of others as ridiculous. It's entirely something else to attack someone outright with that level of insensitivity.


People, let's play nicely please.


Yes, we don't want this thread closed down by the moderators!

90 pages on this topic in PPR has got to be some kind of record.



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28 Mar 2015, 7:05 pm

trollcatman wrote:
Except that before the creation of time there is no causality at all, since you need time for that.


Surprisingly enough, you don't need time. I'll give an example.

The computer that I am now using, and all the other peripherals like the keyboard, exist where they do, in the arrangement they have, due to the existence of the table they rest upon. This relationship, the one that exists between the table (the contingent cause) and the objects that rest upon it (the contingent effects) are simultaneous; that is, absent the existence of the table (for example, if the table could spontaneously dematerialise) all of those objects would immediately crash to the floor. The objects upon the table require the existence of that table in order to be where they are in space. This relationship is not sequential in time, because the effect does not follow the cause in time. This is known as atemporal causality (or 'non-temporal causality').



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28 Mar 2015, 7:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
I'm enjoying my cup of tea right now. I gotta go low income grocery shopping in a bit. Noodles, KD, pop.

Ugh…don't miss the low-income shopping at all. We just buy the most-used stuff in bulk. We stock up on 100 lb. of rice and 100 lb. of bread flour at a time, peanut butter by the gallon, canola oil, and instant oats. I can stretch 6 cups of flour per week into 16 rolls for the kids' lunch boxes and two pizzas every Friday night, plus Asian-style steamed rice in the pressure cooker in less than 10 minutes. Paycheck-to-paycheck grocery shopping is really only for one meal a day+weekends, and I don't eat for 24 hours beginning Friday night. It's unreal how far a family of 5 can go on a combined income of less than $30k and no welfare.

I'd like to set aside a lot more money and massively stockpile frozen veggies and only hit the grocery for meat, fresh apples and bananas. Being broke I can handle. Being broke and starving is the scary part. One of the benefits of fasting no less than once a week is you don't take it for granted.


$34 should last me a week.

As far as starving goes, I doubt you're actually starving - even with my groceries I just got, I won't be starving this week. Actually starving, is horrible.

Image



Last edited by Canadian1911 on 28 Mar 2015, 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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28 Mar 2015, 7:14 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:
$34 should last me a week.

Image

Ah, yes…I remember being fresh out of college. $34 dollars kept me in sandwich meat, bread, and 6-packs of beer for AT LEAST a week at a time. Those were the days…

It all goes to pot when you have 4 other people who insist on 3 squares a day.

Diet Mug??? I'm sorry, dude…give yourself a little more credit than that and go for Diet A&W. The aged vanilla masks the artifickle sweetener taste, plus the thicker syrup makes it indistinguishable from the real thing.



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28 Mar 2015, 7:16 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
I have never yet, found a reasonable argument in favour of "god"....
Hmmm. Neither did many who saw lepers healed, the lame walking, the blind seeing........

I'm tired of this merry-go-round of nonsense.

Look here if you dare.

http://www.catholicapologetics.info/lib ... orrupt.htm

Last time I got a count there were 135 of these inexplicable preservations recorded... some of which were chopped up for souvenirs for various dignitaries.

And if you are exceptionally brave;

http://www.miraclehunter.com/marian_app ... cles1.html

I'm not presenting this as "proof" of anything but the arrogance and ignorance of the perverse. In about the last 200 years no "miracle" has been accepted as such unless it has been acknowledged by secular authorities as "inexplicable" according to the best science available.

Compare that scrupulousness to the credulity of Materialists who blithely accept fairy tales of "Singularities", Black Holes, Worm Holes, Multiverses and so on... none of which can be justified or verified by observation or experiment.


Exactly. If you believe in black holes, then show me one and then I will also believe in them, or at least present an argument that demonstrates that their non-existence would be the more extraordinary of the two options. Wormholes, black holes, multiverses, and singularities are, at this point in time, purely theoretical, for none of these entities have ever been observed, either directly or indirectly. I have heard it said that, 'It is believed that there resides a giant black hole at the centre of our galaxy...' Believed?



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28 Mar 2015, 7:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
$34 should last me a week.

Image

Ah, yes…I remember being fresh out of college. $34 dollars kept me in sandwich meat, bread, and 6-packs of beer for AT LEAST a week at a time. Those were the days…

It all goes to pot when you have 4 other people who insist on 3 squares a day.

Diet Mug??? I'm sorry, dude…give yourself a little more credit than that and go for Diet A&W. The aged vanilla masks the artifickle sweetener taste, plus the thicker syrup makes it indistinguishable from the real thing.


I'm in college right now, living on disability which is liveable. I can pay my rent, bus pass, and phone bill and still have more than enough for food as evidence by the $34 cost. Water is also free technically. I am hoping to get a job sooner than later though.

That being said, time to make KD and mug for dinner. :P



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28 Mar 2015, 7:56 pm

Canadian1911 wrote:
Actually starving, is horrible.

I wouldn't know. I've never been without food when availability of it would have been in question.

I DID successfully complete a total fast (water only) for 40 days. No doctor supervision, no vitamins. Safely reintroduced food when it was over and avoided refeeding. It's only the first two weeks that are bad. Hypokalemia started catching up with me the last week of it, but I managed to hang on and complete the 40 days. Once ketosis set in, there were times I felt amazingly euphoric. Room-temp tap water tasted like honey. It was awesome.

Would NOT recommend just anybody try it, though! lol



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28 Mar 2015, 8:07 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Canadian1911 wrote:
Actually starving, is horrible.

I wouldn't know. I've never been without food when availability of it would have been in question.

I DID successfully complete a total fast (water only) for 40 days. No doctor supervision, no vitamins. Safely reintroduced food when it was over and avoided refeeding. It's only the first two weeks that are bad. Hypokalemia started catching up with me the last week of it, but I managed to hang on and complete the 40 days. Once ketosis set in, there were times I felt amazingly euphoric. Room-temp tap water tasted like honey. It was awesome.

Would NOT recommend just anybody try it, though! lol


LOL. I've decided to make dinner: Roobeer + Noodles + Kraft Dinner. I have a funny feeling that the noodles will be more filling than the KD was. lol.