Is there any proof God exists?

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Again, it is the consequence of a choice.
Let's say that I promise to my son that I will never interfere with his life, but I will give him some advices. As an absolute being I will not turn back on my word. So, if someday, my son decide that he should try to put his hand on the fire to see if it really burns despite the fact that I already warned him he will face the consequences. I have not created fire to burn his hand, neither was this my intention from the very beginning, he just did something that he shouldn't and it was out of my reach to stop him because I decided to let him choose to obey me or not. There is a difference.
God did not create hell for us humans and also wasn't His plan to put humans here to live as slaves to His will or otherwise burn. But since the choice to be apart of Him is made the consequences will be faced.

...how convenient

Conveniently contrived and very effective at being used to control the tribe, of course. Hence the reason for religion in the first place, and hence the reason it's still stubbornly around today. Fear.

Last edited by badgerface on 10 Feb 2015, 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Your statement makes me understand that, for you, everyone that believes in God is because of fear of going to hell. I can't argue about the fact that a lot of churches teaches about God this way and that this may be the main motivation for a lot of people, but for me fear is definitely not the reason that i believe in God. Hell is actually something that I wasn't even thinking about when I started to believe in God, so no, your statement is not truth (but this is too subjective to discuss).
And... well, you just reaffirmed what you said a few posts ago with some ironic images without countering anything and I don't know how to move forward in a discussion this way, so I don't have nothing more to say.

Not necessarily.


"Must be able to…" Why assume that the ability of God to do one thing or another necessarily means that God WILL do it?


Yes it is.


It's not important at all.


OK, now you're changing the subject.

There is a distinct difference between deciding everything in creation SHOULD worship you versus compelling all creation to worship you. Humanity has never been compelled to worship God.


Oh, so you're in charge of God now?


More silliness. If you're assuming the Christian God, you must also assume that God created man in His image with a certain amount of power to go along with it. Creative power has always been integral to humanity. There is, of course, the issue of what we "should" do with that power, but…again…different topic altogether.

Interesting idea about time travel…I'll give you that much. Part of the problem with time travel, obvious paradox aside, is that it is logically possible that we are only here because someone went back and seeded the Earth with life, i.e. time travel itself was predestined. It's also logically possible that an intelligent designer knew this already and set it up that way to achieve a certain end.

But, on the other hand, you have a problem with evidence. This is just plain solipsism. That's not something we can possibly know at this time, there is no evidence that such an event actually DID happen, and even if that turns out to be how it all happened, exactly how does that change things for us at present? This is all brain-in-a-vat kind of stuff and unremarkable.


Well…being physical beings we are not immortal and are bound within physical limits. That's why this is silly word-play. LOGICALLY things as we know them cannot violate their nature. Again, read up on the logical law of non-contradiction. It's unreasonable to expect God or anything/anyone else to be anything other than who or what they are. Water is wet. It's that simple. It's pointless to argue that God exist or act beyond His nature and character.

Aperta Verbum
http://apertaverbum.weebly.com/[/quote]

This life is all there is ? Is this one your many scientific facts ?

You don't have absolute free-will.

You have free-will within the laws set by God.

LOGICAL PROOF A GOD EXISTS:

This proof is so simple that a 2-year-old can follow it.

Science is all about finding answers to questions. A few of the big questions are, "Why do we exist?", "Where did matter come from?", "Why does gravity work the way it does?", etc.

Now, imagine that there was a scientific breakthrough and we answered one of those important questions. We only find ourselves asking more questions about the new answer, "Why that answer?".

Every time you find an answer, you will follow it with more questions to be solved. It is a never ending cycle of questions and answers and questions.

Where does it end? The only logical answer is GOD. Sooner or later, even science will find GOD.

More evidence:
Steven Hawking and other physicists have theorized that the universe was spontaneously created by laws such as gravity. They then theorized that these laws were created by the universe.

This means the creation of the universe works in a cycle:
Laws -> Spontaneous Creation -> Universe -> Laws -> Spontaneous Creation -> etc.

Where did the cycle start? The most logical spot to start the cycle is to define the Laws. How did the Laws get defined without a current Universe? The only logical answer is GOD.

Now, I don't speak of a Christian GOD or Greek GODs, or any GOD that we know of. It is far more logical that the GOD that does exist has never had any influence on our creation at all except for the fact that this GOD created the Laws in which everything is governed.

Here is evidence that even a two year old can follow.

We don't know stuff but this does not mean god is real.


For the more thoughtful among the believers on this thread the trouble you seem to be having stems from the use of common experience when thinking about the universe and what may lie beyond. Here is one thing I do agree with adhogday about science is not necessarily a dry unimaginative paradigm, if it were we would discover very little. Some of the greatest minds in the history of science were incredibly imaginative and used thought experiments to tease out the ideas, among them Einstein, Newton, Copernicus, Hawking etc. Without their ability to imagine they would not have come up with the discoveries that they did. Others in history have been imaginative the greats among the great Plato and Aristotle. What separates the former from the latter is the scientific method, more specifically testing thought experiments with experiments in nature.

This is also the difference between the religious who think they know the answer and those of us who say "we don't know". So many times in human history we have make broad and extraordinary claims based upon religious ideology that have not only turned out to be utter nonsense but have also held up the progress of human knowledge.

This is not evidence for or against god, it is simply saying that the universe and what lies beyond is more than likely stranger and far less intuitive than any of us could possibly imagine, and for me stating that "god did it" is placing a major stricture on what can be discovered, as well as being incredibly unimaginative.

Since I am very late to this discussion party, i was wondering if there is a consensus around here on the existence of G-d.

Do most of us here believe G-d exists or do we mostly believe he does not exist or is there a roughly even split between those who think He is real and those who think He is not?

And of course, this is a fundamentally different question from asking who is religious. Who can very much believe in G-d's existence without being religious in any way, shape or form.

There is actually a peer-reviewed Boston University study that addresses this issue, fully.

It is all broken down in the following linked study.

http://mindmodeling.org/cogsci2011/papers/0782/paper0782.pdf

At the time the study was done, this forum was rather an oppressive one against anyone who talked about traditional religious beliefs, and that has changed considerably since then, where open minds better occupy the environment here.

But even at that and a so-called Strident Atheist sub-club, in this forum, only 26% of the folks interacting here were identified as atheists a few years back, then.

The greatest finding of the study is that folks on the spectrum are spiritual but find their own paths moreover outside of traditional religion, as one does still see here now, for those who follow this forum closely.

And of course that makes considerable sense, as folks on the spectrum are often bullied by others for being different, whether it is school or church that can be an oppressive environment for bullying.

And of course, part of the animosity against traditional religious ideas is driven by not being accepted in traditional religious settings by others, not much different than school.

In the past whenever a poll has been carried out on this forum the atheists respond in the majority. I am not sure where you get your figures from adhogday, as I remember it when the strident atheists were in full swing this was a very agnostic --> atheistic forum. nearly all of those posters are no longer active, which is a shame as many of them had a great deal of knowledge and i and many others learnt a great deal from them.

Thanks for the link. Should be good reading

The figures come from the paper he linked. And a fine paper it is. Who knows, maybe even now some grad student is lurking and taking down the stats from this very thread for his doctoral thesis.





Enjoy the paper. It's about us, literally.

The reason the religious folks didn't participate, in the informal polls, could have something to do with moderators who continuously called them idiots and fools; yes, a clear and disgusting abuse of authority.

But never the less, facts are facts, huh.

It's probably closer to 20% now than 26% with neutral 'non-scary' moderation for believers.

And you are certainly welcome to the interesting research, I linked.

I feel my 'work' here HAS LED to more of an environment of equality.

AND there is empirical evidence of that, perhaps in another study somewhere else..

I do not care for bullies, no matter what Neurotype, Intellectual,

or Physical Style they come in, OR Flavor of Authority.

And nah, I do not need my 930LB real life leg pressing power to take care of that.

What does the Fox say...

CLEVER.

The ANSWER to the video below.. smiles..and wink..;)

And to be clear, I have no problem with you Mr. Dent, you seem to live and learn..well..