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sophisticated
Deinonychus
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14 Apr 2015, 1:51 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It's all a matter of that thing called "faith."


No , I am certain that reality exists.



izzeme
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14 Apr 2015, 4:02 am

Oldavid wrote:
izzeme wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
If you could read or think coherently you would see that the "evolution" hypothesis has been falsified (shown to be philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically impossible) and the only kind of "refutation" of the falsification has been a childish straw man of some silly make-believe thing you like to call "religion" set up for ridicule. Not only do you and your ideologically crazed mates not know your science but you haven't a clue about the "religion" stuff you deride with a frenzy of glib, gratuitous assertions and accusations.

Oh really... First let me make clear that there is both a 'fact' and a 'theory' of evolution. The 'fact' simply states that species change over time, something which we can even see happening in a laboratory; there is no denying that. Even humans are still changing over time; for one, our average size increased several inches over the last few 100 years.
Now, the 'theory' attempts to explain the "how" and the "why". Indeed, Darwins own statements have been refuted, and the current theory is flawed as well, but it is better than the original.
Most of the refutations are of the form that "i don't believe it", without providing evidence against the current theory.
also, mathematics have nothing to do with evolution... If we can see it happen in front of us, with our own eyes, then it must be possible, agreed?

Your skills at comprehension and retention are notably absent. I have already said quite plainly that evolution (gradual change) does occur but always and only in the direction of entropy.
I have provided plenty of reasons and evidence that "evolution" (anti-entropy) is impossible. Your "current theory" (wild speculation)(never described or defined) is still scientifically impossible.

I might have jumbled a few threads, i'm discussing in several; i apologize for that; though this doesn't change my points.
What you have stated might be true in an energy-isolated system, but earth is not isolated; energy is being added constantly (by the sun, mostly), so going against enthropy is quite possible, as well as observed.
I indeed did not describe the current theory of evolution, becouse i do not know the exact definition off-hand. I do find it interesting, however, that you can claim it is impossible without knowing what it actually is...
Your 'reasons' are based on (inaccurate) assumptions and your 'evidence' is just plainly scientifically incorrect. I know i cut some corners in my own descriptions and statements, but at least i admit to it, and i do know (or know/want to find out) what the actual case is, usually. Not unlike science class in schools: if the simplified model is sufficient explanation, it is all that needs to be taught, as long as you make clear that a better definition is available.

Oldavid wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
I also challenge you, izzeme, and all your co-religionists, to "prove" with your own prescribed precepts that God does not exist.

Quote:
As i stated in the post you quoted; we do not have to prove anything, since we do not claim that god doesn't exist. We simply do not believe that he does, and theists have yet to provide evidence that is both scientifically sound, independantly testable and can only mean that "god did it" (all three must apply to the same evidence before it becomes valid)


Fatuous, nebulous, smoke-and-mirrors salesman's gobbledegook.

I have simply made the case that changeable things exist therefore something caused it. You lot have merely asserted that Nothing caused everything for no reason and in complete contradiction to observed and demonstrable Natural Laws... and not a shred of reason or evidence provided to support your purely ideological belief.

Your ideology is based on exactly the same sales gimmicks as artfully contrived picture shows with pretty girls playing volleyball on the beach is meant to produce a subliminal notion that "things go better with Coke".

I agree, "something" caused everything; i just don't see why this "something" has to be a sentient creature living outside of our spacetime.
If you read into science; you'd find that we do not claim a 'nothing', rather a 'singularity', which is a "small pocket containing everything".

I must also say that i do not like being dismissed with ad-homonims the way you do: i am willing to hear (well, read) your arguments, and try to keep theists in their value while explaining them why their arguments aren't up to the task. I would like to recieve the same curtesy. There is no sense in discussing if your opponent dismisses your arguments as "male cow manure" without any more words as to why; these are the tactics of someone who knows he is losing.


Oldavid wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
I also challenge you, izzeme, and all your co-religionists, to "prove" with your own prescribed precepts that God does not exist.

As i stated in the post you quoted; we do not have to prove anything, since we do not claim that god doesn't exist. We simply do not believe that he does


In other words you don;t believe in reality.

If you need proof for reality, then you are not 100% upstairs.

I do not need proof for reality: reality is what i see, and i am not denying that.
I do need proof (or at least evidence) for any and all "explanations" of reality. You claim to have an explanation, so prove it, without using your proof as its own evidence.



kraftiekortie
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15 Apr 2015, 6:46 pm

When I say the basis is "faith," I'm merely talking about religious belief/nonbelief.

Not about the nature of reality itself. It's far more complex than that, probably more complex than we could imagine as humans.

(No, I'm not implying that a "god" is the only "being" able to understand, fully, the Universe.)



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17 Apr 2015, 5:14 pm

"Evidence" that maybe GOD doesn't exist:
Believe in religions that have all ridiculously lost their way and then continue to equate God with religions.
Believe that all your awareness or consciousness is in your monkey brain.
Continue to read what the monkey atheist scientists say, monkeys that have developed their "monkey science" brains to such an extreme, they have lost their minds! For example, "everything in the Universes is just a big energetic coincidence, but we know how it all happened ...it went Bang"
.
Believe there are no miracles and everything has a logical scientific explanation. Whose logic? Whose science?
Believe what the "machine" tells us, the machine that controls religions, governments, schools, media.etc, etc and us.


"Proof" that a great consciousness entity we label GOD does exists:
Look up and realize that human scientists have discovered over 500 billion Solar Systems in our minor Milky Way Galaxy and billions and billions of Galaxies in our Universe.
Look at a beautiful flower and hovering butterfly on a sunny morning in the country with mountains, plains and waterfalls around you.
See the sky turn from cloudy dark to sunny bright blue with a rainbow appearing.
Look at a one year old baby smile and then laugh at you for the first time.
Fall in Love.
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said "GOD does not play dice with the Universe."
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said " Everything (even atoms, especially electrons and protons) is a Miracle."
Find the REAL Truth among the rotting mental and environmental rubble and spiritual pollution that now dominates this planet.
Understand that God gives us total free will choice and if we make a mess we sit in our mess for awhile (Karma). This is our mess, not God's.

TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO, 144000 HIGH LEVEL SOULS AND THEIR TWO LEADERS CHOSE TO INCARNATE ON PLANET EARTH TO BRING US THE TRUTH. THEY WOULD RETURN EVERY ONE THOUSAND YEARS. THIS IS YEAR TEN THOUSAND AND THIS IS THEIR LAST REINCARNATION.
THEY CAN TEACH YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW, "CURE" YOU AND PREPARE YOU FOR YOUR ASCENSION.

If you are interested in knowing more please email me.
We would Love to hear from you.



AngelRho
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17 Apr 2015, 5:21 pm

WallyGee wrote:
"Evidence" that maybe GOD doesn't exist:
Believe in religions that have all ridiculously lost their way and then continue to equate God with religions.
Believe that all your awareness or consciousness is in your monkey brain.
Continue to read what the monkey atheist scientists say, monkeys that have developed their "monkey science" brains to such an extreme, they have lost their minds! For example, "everything in the Universes is just a big energetic coincidence, but we know how it all happened ...it went Bang"
.
Believe there are no miracles and everything has a logical scientific explanation. Whose logic? Whose science?
Believe what the "machine" tells us, the machine that controls religions, governments, schools, media.etc, etc and us.


"Proof" that a great consciousness entity we label GOD does exists:
Look up and realize that human scientists have discovered over 500 billion Solar Systems in our minor Milky Way Galaxy and billions and billions of Galaxies in our Universe.
Look at a beautiful flower and hovering butterfly on a sunny morning in the country with mountains, plains and waterfalls around you.
See the sky turn from cloudy dark to sunny bright blue with a rainbow appearing.
Look at a one year old baby smile and then laugh at you for the first time.
Fall in Love.
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said "GOD does not play dice with the Universe."
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said " Everything (even atoms, especially electrons and protons) is a Miracle."
Find the REAL Truth among the rotting mental and environmental rubble and spiritual pollution that now dominates this planet.
Understand that God gives us total free will choice and if we make a mess we sit in our mess for awhile (Karma). This is our mess, not God's.

TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO, 144000 HIGH LEVEL SOULS AND THEIR TWO LEADERS CHOSE TO INCARNATE ON PLANET EARTH TO BRING US THE TRUTH. THEY WOULD RETURN EVERY ONE THOUSAND YEARS. THIS IS YEAR TEN THOUSAND AND THIS IS THEIR LAST REINCARNATION.
THEY CAN TEACH YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW, "CURE" YOU AND PREPARE YOU FOR YOUR ASCENSION.

If you are interested in knowing more please email me.
We would Love to hear from you.

Your engrams were very, VERY bad to you, weren't they?



pcuser
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17 Apr 2015, 6:08 pm

Funny, I had the same thought as I was reading that nonsense.



kraftiekortie
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17 Apr 2015, 6:23 pm

I think some of what Wally wrote made sense

But that crap about the 144,000...cmon now!



pcuser
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17 Apr 2015, 6:45 pm

That's the part that made me think of Scientology...



kraftiekortie
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17 Apr 2015, 7:22 pm

That's the Jehovah's Witnesses belief.



aghogday
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17 Apr 2015, 7:30 pm

WallyGee wrote:
"Evidence" that maybe GOD doesn't exist:
Believe in religions that have all ridiculously lost their way and then continue to equate God with religions.
Believe that all your awareness or consciousness is in your monkey brain.
Continue to read what the monkey atheist scientists say, monkeys that have developed their "monkey science" brains to such an extreme, they have lost their minds! For example, "everything in the Universes is just a big energetic coincidence, but we know how it all happened ...it went Bang"
.
Believe there are no miracles and everything has a logical scientific explanation. Whose logic? Whose science?
Believe what the "machine" tells us, the machine that controls religions, governments, schools, media.etc, etc and us.


"Proof" that a great consciousness entity we label GOD does exists:
Look up and realize that human scientists have discovered over 500 billion Solar Systems in our minor Milky Way Galaxy and billions and billions of Galaxies in our Universe.
Look at a beautiful flower and hovering butterfly on a sunny morning in the country with mountains, plains and waterfalls around you.
See the sky turn from cloudy dark to sunny bright blue with a rainbow appearing.
Look at a one year old baby smile and then laugh at you for the first time.
Fall in Love.
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said "GOD does not play dice with the Universe."
Hear what Albert Einstein is saying scientifically when he said " Everything (even atoms, especially electrons and protons) is a Miracle."
Find the REAL Truth among the rotting mental and environmental rubble and spiritual pollution that now dominates this planet.
Understand that God gives us total free will choice and if we make a mess we sit in our mess for awhile (Karma). This is our mess, not God's.

TEN THOUSAND YEARS AGO, 144000 HIGH LEVEL SOULS AND THEIR TWO LEADERS CHOSE TO INCARNATE ON PLANET EARTH TO BRING US THE TRUTH. THEY WOULD RETURN EVERY ONE THOUSAND YEARS. THIS IS YEAR TEN THOUSAND AND THIS IS THEIR LAST REINCARNATION.
THEY CAN TEACH YOU ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW, "CURE" YOU AND PREPARE YOU FOR YOUR ASCENSION.

If you are interested in knowing more please email me.
We would Love to hear from you.


Ah, finAlly another 'REAL Illuminati', enters A 'rING' of 'fire'.

Email me, and I'll explain that to 'you', and NO, not the person who
wrITES 'that', as he/s/HE, already, obviously

GETS IT.

Trust me, IT DOES NOT COME
FROM FORMAL INVITATION
OR MEMBERSHIP
IN
ANY
ORGAN-
iZATiONAL
CLUB.

And tHERE are some 'lyrics' from
a 'song' of poetry AND PROSE named
'Equinox' that describes
THAT TOO..;)
FROM
'UNCLE'
AL..;)

http://hermetic.com/crowley/equinox/


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AngelRho
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17 Apr 2015, 7:45 pm

pcuser wrote:
That's the part that made me think of Scientology...

Not Scientology necessarily, but it was the "we would Love to hear from you…" that really got my attention. Not I but we.

To each his own, I guess. I recognize that Christianity was, indeed, something I was born into in a sense. But over the years I've been able to dig into other religions and even the prospect of no religion at all. I'm very comfortable and confident in that my religion both chose me and I chose it back. I can understand how someone can come into Christianity from another faith or from being anti-faith. We have no secrets. It is an open book.

What I have a hard time understanding is how someone from another faith or no faith can get into Scientology. You can find out all sorts of things, both good and bad, about it just as much you can with Christianity. When you look at the sort of financial and physical demands they place on their membership and how they've completely destroyed lives…I mean, it seems to me you really have to give up any kind of personal identity, any kind of independent thinking, and take whatever they dish out to you in SeaOrg. There's no getting out. They'll follow you, they'll lawyer up if you breathe so much as one bad word about them, drag your name through the mud in the media.

You get into Christianity and want out? You might get a phone call or two and a bunch of people say they're praying for you and will pray with you if you want. But beyond that a lot of them will be super nice and no hard feelings. We're not going to stalk you or harass you. At worst you have some sects or pseudo-Christian groups who will shun you. I'll take shunning over being someone's "fair game" any day.



aghogday
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17 Apr 2015, 7:45 pm

AND by the way, so-called 'Uncle AL' has a huge influence on
'Scientology', as a personal friend of 'Mr. Hubbard';
and nah, I dam sure don't take too much OF
what 'they' say 'overall', as light and truth;
but usually there is at least some light
in all so-called DARK places,
wHERE folks are neither
cynical of the light
OR afraid of
the frigging
DARK TO
EXPLORE
STUFF
LIKE
THAT..;)


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pcuser
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17 Apr 2015, 7:57 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the Jehovah's Witnesses belief.

I know. But it still reminded me of Going Clear...



AngelRho
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17 Apr 2015, 8:17 pm

kraftiekortie wrote:
That's the Jehovah's Witnesses belief.

That would be one sect I'd hate growing up in. It's set up in such a way that if you leave, you're made to feel you have no friends/family. AT ALL. So, yeah, you'll submit to church discipline because you're made to feel you have to in order to have any kind of familial or professional connections. It takes a lot of courage to leave and not look back. Sure, you could join, say, a Baptist or Methodist church and they'll welcome you with open arms. But a handshake and a hug is all you're going to get. I love my fellow Christians, but this is something we could do better.

Contrast with Islam. They'll hook you up with a job, a car, and a close friend to read the Quran with every day and get all your prayers in.

For an ex-Witness, you'd really have to have a deep hatred for where you come from to get out and stay gone. It's just easier to stick with it and keep your real thoughts to yourself.



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18 Apr 2015, 4:37 am

izzeme wrote:
I might have jumbled a few threads, i'm discussing in several; i apologize for that; though this doesn't change my points.
What you have stated might be true in an energy-isolated system, but earth is not isolated; energy is being added constantly (by the sun, mostly), so going against enthropy is quite possible, as well as observed.
I indeed did not describe the current theory of evolution, becouse i do not know the exact definition off-hand. I do find it interesting, however, that you can claim it is impossible without knowing what it actually is...
Your 'reasons' are based on (inaccurate) assumptions and your 'evidence' is just plainly scientifically incorrect. I know i cut some corners in my own descriptions and statements, but at least i admit to it, and i do know (or know/want to find out) what the actual case is, usually. Not unlike science class in schools: if the simplified model is sufficient explanation, it is all that needs to be taught, as long as you make clear that a better definition is available.

I accept that you may have jumped in here repeating popularised nonsense without knowing what has been said in the past 100 pages.

The only energy isolated system I am suggesting for the purpose of this disagreement is the whole Universe. The closed/open system deception that is supposed to violate entropy has been exposed as a fraudulent mischief proffered by a sales team selling an ideological anti scientific nonsense. Entropy, as succinctly described by the Second LAW of Thermodynamics, is always and everywhere consistent. That's how it gets to be a law and not just a notion. I will dig up the relevant material/posts and re-present them for you if I am convinced that it might be worthwhile for me to do so.

Izzy wrote:
As i stated in the post you quoted; we do not have to prove anything, since we do not claim that god doesn't exist. We simply do not believe that he does, and theists have yet to provide evidence that is both scientifically sound, independantly testable and can only mean that "god did it" (all three must apply to the same evidence before it becomes valid)

Odd wrote:
Fatuous, nebulous, smoke-and-mirrors salesman's gobbledegook.

I have simply made the case that changeable things exist therefore something caused it. You lot have merely asserted that Nothing caused everything for no reason and in complete contradiction to observed and demonstrable Natural Laws... and not a shred of reason or evidence provided to support your purely ideological belief.

Your ideology is based on exactly the same sales gimmicks as artfully contrived picture shows with pretty girls playing volleyball on the beach is meant to produce a subliminal notion that "things go better with Coke".

Izzy wrote:
I agree, "something" caused everything; i just don't see why this "something" has to be a sentient creature living outside of our spacetime.
If you read into science; you'd find that we do not claim a 'nothing', rather a 'singularity', which is a "small pocket containing everything".
A "singularity" is an imaginary, physically impossible, nonsense. Another argument for another time.
Izzy wrote:
I must also say that i do not like being dismissed with ad-homonims the way you do: i am willing to hear (well, read) your arguments, and try to keep theists in their value while explaining them why their arguments aren't up to the task. I would like to recieve the same curtesy. There is no sense in discussing if your opponent dismisses your arguments as "male cow manure" without any more words as to why; these are the tactics of someone who knows he is losing.
Look here, cobber, if you'd been at this argument for as long as, and at the depth I have, you'd be impatient with really clever know-nothings who mindlessly repeat popularised nonsense as if it were the last word in everything also. I assumed that you had heard all the argument and blithely ignored it as is the wont of zealots of any persuasion.

Izzy wrote:
I do not need proof for reality: reality is what i see, and i am not denying that.
I do need proof (or at least evidence) for any and all "explanations" of reality. You claim to have an explanation, so prove it, without using your proof as its own evidence.
You have me confused with someone else here. I will contend that there is a lot of reality that you can't see... you can only know that it's there by what it does.



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18 Apr 2015, 3:53 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I can understand how someone can come into Christianity from another faith or from being anti-faith. We have no secrets. It is an open book.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business

wiki wrote:
"Envision converting to Judaism but having to pay for courses in order to hear the story of Abraham and Isaac, Noah and the flood, or Moses and the Ten Commandments. Or imagine joining the Catholic Church but not being told about the crucifixion and the resurrection until you have reached Operating Theological Level III, which can only be attained after many years and tens of thousands of dollars in church-run courses."[13]


Keeping the specifics of the religion a secret until you have paid $$$$ is just so unacceptable to me.

AngelRho wrote:
What I have a hard time understanding is how someone from another faith or no faith can get into Scientology. You can find out all sorts of things, both good and bad, about it just as much you can with Christianity. When you look at the sort of financial and physical demands they place on their membership and how they've completely destroyed lives…I mean, it seems to me you really have to give up any kind of personal identity, any kind of independent thinking, and take whatever they dish out to you in SeaOrg. There's no getting out. They'll follow you, they'll lawyer up if you breathe so much as one bad word about them, drag your name through the mud in the media.


What really mystifies me is why this is so appealing to professional actors. The grip Scientology has on Hollywood is legendary. I just don't get the appeal.