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Oldavid
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22 Apr 2015, 5:05 pm

Kate.com wrote:
On Moses: biblical scholarship these days understands that Genesis is a series of creation stories and stories describing the establishment of the Hebrews as apart from other nations by way of their faith in one God, Yahweh. They've been collected over hundreds of years. On Moses directly, I believe that he did exist. The pharaoh most cited as Pharaoh of the bible is Rameses II. We have his remains under plexiglass. We can reasonably guess that there were other peeps in his day. Among them, and as documented in Egyptian sources, were Hebrews. And Hebrew itself is an Egyptian word, not a Jewish word. It was a derogatory term back in the day but Hebrews let it stick. Why? Because it looks pretty silly on kings when the mocked peeps walk free.

In proving God, the much more difficult task is in proving He doe not exist.

First, the order of the most simple things about us tells us there is intelligent design. We see flowers and the tides, and those point to the sun and the moon in their development.

From this we see the motions of the heavens. Quite a task without the laws of physics and their designer.

But coming back to humanity, the question that often comes up is why? Is this it?

This calls on a God with a name, a personal God. Each person is free to choose. I won't speak more in terms of theology other than saying it's quite amazing that the God of all things has a name, shares it, and has a delight in His creation--one which pre-exists to this creation. One where creation was made so as to share with a humanity created in His image. It's all made/anything is made to share with us.

Pretty sweet as opposed to nothing, no sharing no personal/loving God

:D
Good on you, Kate, for having a go.

However, we are arguing with a fantastic superstition that claims to be "science" where anything goes as long as it's perversely God-hating.



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22 Apr 2015, 6:44 pm

Dude, seriously, you need to go back on your meds...



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22 Apr 2015, 10:37 pm

pcuser wrote:
Dude, seriously, you need to go back on your meds...
Don't worry, ole fella, there are still plenty of egoists out there who will mindlessly proclaim any convenient fad. You won't be lonely without me.



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22 Apr 2015, 11:07 pm

This is a pointless argument.


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Oldavid
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23 Apr 2015, 1:13 am

Here, in case you missed it, Izzy, is a summary of the entropy business in simple layman's terms and concepts:

Odd wrote:
Entropy.

The best (most succinct and precise) definition (description) of entropy is as it occurs in the "Second Law of Thermodynamics"; "All ordered systems, left to themselves tend toward maximum randomness and lowest energy (potential or differential)". That means that order naturally tends to degenerate into randomness (disorder) and energy potential tends to dissipate into a uniformity without potential because there's nowhere of lower potential left to go to...

Because energy must be dissipated in the maintenance, or sustaining, of an orderly system some con men with an ideology to sell will try to pretend that the energy consumed in the process creates the order. A sly mental trick.

Let's propose some practical examples to illustrate the process.

Most mothers like to have an orderly home. Order in her home requires:
1. An intellect to conceive the order.
2. The will to want the order.
3. The capacity, or power, to implement, or bring about, the order.

Now, that poor Mum who has been toiling away for years to install and maintain the order suddenly finds herself confronted by a clever-dick progeny who's been to school and learned that energy spontaneously creates order. SmArty tries to convince Mum that letting off a bomb (great release of energy) in the middle of her expertly managed domain, will spontaneously create order and she'll never have to tidy up again. Good luck with that one Smarty.

Or let's lift great weights to great heights. An intellect comes up with an idea of a crane to do the job. Skilled minds and hands divert energy and materials to make the machine using entropy in every step of the process. Smarty, with the benefit of his recently acquired great insights, comes along and proclaims that because the energy to build and operate the crane comes, ultimately, from the Sun then the Sun built the crane. Now, I just happen to know for sure that Central Australia gets lots and lots of solar energy but not one giant crane has ever spontaneously appeared in the desert.

Oh well, counters Smarty, "that only applies to non-biological systems. Energy applied to biological systems creates an increase in order and complexity opposed to entropy". Smarty has never heard of the "Law of Morphology" (which is really only entropy applied to biological systems) which says, simply, that "the more complex an organism and the more often it is reproduced, the more likely it is that something will go wrong in the process".

So, the thousands of generations of Drosophila (fruit flies) that have been subjected to every imaginable radiation "stimulus" to produce "sped up" "evolution" have only ever produced some wreckage of their DNA or genome... not one super-human spaceman.

Ultimately, untold thousands of generations of diligent and wise housekeeping Mums are in tune with reality... the Smartys are not.

Order is a product of Intellect, Will, and Life.



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23 Apr 2015, 8:26 am

Oldavid wrote:
Here, in case you missed it, Izzy, is a summary of the entropy business in simple layman's terms and concepts:
Odd wrote:
Entropy.

The best (most succinct and precise) definition (description) of entropy is as it occurs in the "Second Law of Thermodynamics"; "All ordered systems, left to themselves tend toward maximum randomness and lowest energy (potential or differential)". That means that order naturally tends to degenerate into randomness (disorder) and energy potential tends to dissipate into a uniformity without potential because there's nowhere of lower potential left to go to...

Because energy must be dissipated in the maintenance, or sustaining, of an orderly system some con men with an ideology to sell will try to pretend that the energy consumed in the process creates the order. A sly mental trick.

Let's propose some practical examples to illustrate the process.

Most mothers like to have an orderly home. Order in her home requires:
1. An intellect to conceive the order.
2. The will to want the order.
3. The capacity, or power, to implement, or bring about, the order.

Now, that poor Mum who has been toiling away for years to install and maintain the order suddenly finds herself confronted by a clever-dick progeny who's been to school and learned that energy spontaneously creates order. SmArty tries to convince Mum that letting off a bomb (great release of energy) in the middle of her expertly managed domain, will spontaneously create order and she'll never have to tidy up again. Good luck with that one Smarty.

Or let's lift great weights to great heights. An intellect comes up with an idea of a crane to do the job. Skilled minds and hands divert energy and materials to make the machine using entropy in every step of the process. Smarty, with the benefit of his recently acquired great insights, comes along and proclaims that because the energy to build and operate the crane comes, ultimately, from the Sun then the Sun built the crane. Now, I just happen to know for sure that Central Australia gets lots and lots of solar energy but not one giant crane has ever spontaneously appeared in the desert.

Oh well, counters Smarty, "that only applies to non-biological systems. Energy applied to biological systems creates an increase in order and complexity opposed to entropy". Smarty has never heard of the "Law of Morphology" (which is really only entropy applied to biological systems) which says, simply, that "the more complex an organism and the more often it is reproduced, the more likely it is that something will go wrong in the process".

So, the thousands of generations of Drosophila (fruit flies) that have been subjected to every imaginable radiation "stimulus" to produce "sped up" "evolution" have only ever produced some wreckage of their DNA or genome... not one super-human spaceman.

Ultimately, untold thousands of generations of diligent and wise housekeeping Mums are in tune with reality... the Smartys are not.

Order is a product of Intellect, Will, and Life.


Order is a product of:

Life, Will, Love, and Intellect in that 'order'...

Generally speaking, 'the rule is', a housewife who does not experience the positive PRO-SOCIAL emoting POWER of the emotions associated with Unconditional Love has a 'nasty' 'DIS-ORDERED' home...

THAT is often the result of social abuse, either in childhood or later that can, WILL, and does KILL human pro-social emotion, by various biological and environmental mechanisms...

MOST all rational decisions are preceded by emotions; take that out of the soup of human and one has 'mindless' robots, more or LESS; yes, so-called smarty pant zombies...;)

LIZARDS have Life and Will.

Dogs have Life, Will, and Love.

Humans CAN AND DO HAVE Life, Will, Love and Intellect.

But truly the biggest roadblock in human experience, to have an imbalanced life,
both in connection to other humans and NATURE AKA GOD, IS THE DEATH OF LOVE;

AND DEFICITS OF PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE,
AS PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR REGULATING
PRO-SOCIAL EMOTION.

IN HUMANS, the Death of PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE AND
Love often means the Death of Pro-Social Cooperation,
Will, and Intellect, and potentially even life, in THAT DISORDER.

And truly there is SYSTEMIZING science to THAT (NOT THE FRIGGING SCIENTIFIC METHOD ALONE);
for those FOLKS who explore THAT 'LITERATURE', IN DETAIL, AND BIG PICTURE THINKING AND FEELING....

PER, WHAT IS REQUIRED IN HUMAN PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE, THE CORE OF ALL EMOTING HUMAN EMOTIONS,

FOR A MIND AND BODY BALANCE IN LIFE.


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23 Apr 2015, 8:53 am

EDITED response:

Order is a product of:

Life, Will, Love, and Intellect in that 'order'...

Generally speaking, 'the rule is', a housewife who does not experience the positive PRO-SOCIAL emoting POWER of the emotions associated with Unconditional Love has a 'nasty' 'DIS-ORDERED' home...

THAT is often the result of social abuse, either in childhood or later that can, WILL, and does KILL human pro-social emotion, by various biological and environmental mechanisms...

MOST all rational decisions are preceded by emotions; take that out of the soup of human and one has 'mindless' robots, more or LESS; yes, so-called smarty pant zombies...;)

SNAKES have Life and Will.

Dogs have Life, Will, and Love.

Humans CAN AND DO HAVE Life, Will, Love, and Intellect.

But truly the biggest roadblock in human experience, to have a balanced life,
both in connection to other humans and NATURE AKA GOD, IS THE DEATH OF LOVE;

AND DEFICITS OF PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE,
AS PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE IS RESPONSIBLE
FOR REGULATING
PRO-SOCIAL EMOTION,
INCLUDING THE EMOTION OF LOVE.

IN HUMANS, the Death of PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE AND
Love often means the Death of Pro-Social Cooperation,
Will, and Intellect; and potentially even life; in THAT DISORDER.

And truly there is SYSTEMIZING science to THAT (NOT THE FRIGGING SCIENTIFIC METHOD ALONE);
for FOLKS who explore THAT 'LITERATURE', IN DETAIL; AND BIG PICTURE THINKING AND FEELING;

PER, WHAT IS REQUIRED IN HUMAN PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE;

THE CORE OF ALL EMOTING HUMAN EMOTIONS;

FOR MIND AND BODY BALANCE
IN LIFE..:)


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23 Apr 2015, 3:27 pm

Love is a function of the will, Hogsy. It's about desire or wanting some perceived good. Intellect should direct the will because one cannot want or love something unless you are aware of it (concept).



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23 Apr 2015, 9:22 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Love is a function of the will, Hogsy. It's about desire or wanting some perceived good. Intellect should direct the will because one cannot want or love something unless you are aware of it (concept).


Nope.. at least if one has high regard for science..

'science says' emotion comes first.. and reason second...

AND BY THE WAY.. true will AT CORE IS HUMAN emotion.. not abstract concepts alone...

People who experience few emotions are OFTEN very limited by way of cognitive executive functioning.. in emoting action... and that my friend is the CRUX OF WILL.. FOCUS AND EMOTING ACTION.. WITH EMOTION...

Not my idea.. alone.. it's backed up by 'that' scientific method.. that you seem to 'love' so well... smiles..;)

But OMG.. seriously.. it's common sense for one who is in touch with their entire being in fuller physical intelligence AND EXISTENTIAL intelligence.. and not just stuck.. in an illusory head.. of verbal abstract thoughts...

http://bigthink.com/experts-corner/decisions-are-emotional-not-logical-the-neuroscience-behind-decision-making

And seriously.. as many emotional personal attacks.. in words.. as one has made against other people in this thread.. and others.. i certainly hope one does not 'think' one is in control of one's emotions.. in words.. otherwise one could be like 'me'.. in 'Yoda' style of understanding how to control emotions with relative free will.. including the physical intelligence of regulating emotions.. as well as integrating senses...

One will never ever see me make a personal attack on this website.. and there is no record of it.. in several million words.. as I for one.. am in control of my emotions.. and understand they are the core emoting energy of my being...

Emotions can only be controlled by emotions and other senses.. in physical intelligence.. NOT WITH words alone...

Words are just a secondary byproduct that can be used as symbols or guideposts to associate with emotions.. like everything else that emotes human action in life... PER EMOTIONAL AFFECT OR LACK OF IT...

A major 'reason' why many folks do not believe in GOD.. IS they simply cannot fuller feel the empathic connection to other human beings and the rest of Nature AKA GOD...

People who do TRULY FULLER feel that UNCONDITIONALLY LOVING EMOTIONAL connection.. almost always respect others and rarely to never personally attack them.. as they understand that personally attacking them is like personally attacking GOD.. AND THEMSELVES.. as it is all ONE big CONNECTING FEELING INTERDEPENDENTLY RELATED FORCE..

AT least FOR folks who are NOT stuck in an illusory verbal pattern of LIMITED ..in the head thinking.. with little empathic connection.. affectively and or cognitively 'speaking'.. to the rest of the human race and all of Nature AKA GOD.. as well...

That's Heart.. Soul.. and Spirit 101.. and Spirit is simply a metaphor for emotionally expressing the seat of the human being that is the Emotional Soul.. and the Heart that feels is the emotions that DO 'reside AND LIVE' throughout the human body.. with neurological receptors THAT FEEL.. like all healthy.. socially cooperative mammals innately.. instinctually.. and intuitively do...

All the words.. are MOSTLY symbols for emotions.. PER WHAT REALLY COUNTS IN LIFE.. AS IS..NOW.. AND all the STUFF that humans abstractly label as static DEAD NOUNS IN collecting NOUNS AS objects.. INCLUDING THE THREE LETTER WORD GOD.. often for illusory EMPTY WORDS OF power.. FOR those folks who can no longer or ever can.. give and receive feeling FULFILLING.. Satisfying in EVERY NOW.. Unconditional Love..

LIKE a frigging DOMESTICATED OR EVEN WILD Dog.. 'who' for all practical intents and purposes is often more so-called 'human' than many 'cold hearted HUMAN zombies' walking the street.. and online of course.. as well...

But of course that IS easy to measure.. as well..

BY the pro-social emotional expressions

that people do OR DO NOT make in words..

my friend....

Dogs have it easy.. they just bark and 'smile'..
with emotionally connecting eyes....

Humans are more complicated as they get lost in words..
and some times never escape back..

to the eyes of a child..

AKA

'HUMAN'....BEFORE 'SCHOOL'.. IN THE MANY FORMS

THAT COMES IN NOW.. takes 'em away
from what they are even evolved to be..

at times.. at least...:)


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23 Apr 2015, 10:31 pm

Hogsy, your admonition is duly noted.

I make no claim to be some kind of angelic perfection devoid of impatience, annoyance, or stupidity.

I also extend the possibility of annoyance, impatience and stupidity to those with whom I disagree. Let Reason be the arbiter.

My patience and tolerance is sometimes submerged in a gallon of home brew.



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24 Apr 2015, 1:25 am

Mosis was not real hence the ten commandments are fiction as well until there is actual historical proof of him existing god does not exist either.I predict domino effect followed by more personal attacks by Mr Davy out of desperation.


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24 Apr 2015, 2:46 am

AspieOtaku wrote:
Mosis was not real hence the ten commandments are fiction as well until there is actual historical proof of him existing god does not exist either.I predict domino effect followed by more personal attacks by Mr Davy out of desperation.
'Spergics are supposed to be "high functioning autistic". Narcissists are merely non-functional "Black Holes".

Your Majesty has no subject here.

I suppose that the only face-saving option left for you is to try to get me banished (banned).



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24 Apr 2015, 4:09 am

Before I get the flick I'll re-present a layman's view of the "evolution" hoax. This bod is an avowed non-Christian.

http://archive.lewrockwell.com/reed/reed59.html

I don't expect that any card-carrying anti-theists will read it but maybe some bystanders will.
There's much more... and much more very scientifically specific objections to the fantastic superstition of no cause for everything. Try this if you're the least bit fair-minded:

http://www.detectingdesign.org/?page_id=2

That's only a sample of some of the contra-evidence of the Materialist view. There is much more, often very sectarian, objection to the fashionable Materialism.



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24 Apr 2015, 4:09 am

Oldavid wrote:
AspieOtaku wrote:
Mosis was not real hence the ten commandments are fiction as well until there is actual historical proof of him existing god does not exist either.I predict domino effect followed by more personal attacks by Mr Davy out of desperation.
'Spergics are supposed to be "high functioning autistic". Narcissists are merely non-functional "Black Holes".

Your Majesty has no subject here.

I suppose that the only face-saving option left for you is to try to get me banished (banned).
Nope, please provide me evidence of Mosis's existence there is no documentary of his death so it leaves a real loop hole in the bible! This fact makes you mad that is why the same person who held the ten commandments possibly not existing on a grand scale, it is like telling a 4 year old the Easter Bunny does not exist, same reaction.*awaits frantic illogical rage posts and tries to hold back from laughing*


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24 Apr 2015, 4:23 am

Let us not forget that Noahs Ark never happened it was a fairy tale as well!


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