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sophisticated
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15 Feb 2015, 7:58 am

Narrator wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
History has not proven that atheists are not "normal." People who do not believe in a god are generally just as "normal" as other people. To suggest otherwise is like the brown dog analogy - If all dogs are brown, and that animal is brown then it must be a dog.

But one thing history has proven is that beliefs evolve over time.
And no wonder too... for thousands of years there was no other way to understand the world except through the supernatural.


The homosexual claims to be normal too.

Most of them probably are. But that's a different question, and begs the question, what is normal?

sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
Largely untrue. Where you are born heavily influences your belief - asia, arabic countries, europe, southern US - all largely homogenous with the great majority taking on the religion of their region, and most of them passionately. If you were born in KSA, you would almost certainly be a Muslim. If you were born in England, you'd have about a 30% chance of being an atheist.


Belief in God has nothing to do with environment though. It is something ingrained within you.

And your evidence for this is.......?

sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
That is unproven. Most of science does not agree with you. And the few that proposed that idea also argued that we evolved that way for social cohesion and survival. Chicken and egg.


They shouldn't be linking it with evolution without evidence. That's the mistake they made.

Evolution isn't the weak link here. The mistake they made was claiming a god gene without proper evidence.

sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
In statistical terms yes. Atheism is a the minority belief. So is vegetarianism. But atheism is growing, especially in the educated west, which is evidence that knowledge overcomes superstition, even if slowly.
Statistically there are more homosexuals than atheists. But there is also one other important difference. Atheism is not about biology or life choice, but about reason and an intellectual position on belief. So equating the two does a disservice to both.


With the level of propaganda it doesn't surprise me that atheism is growing.

What... like spreading the gospel?


See this is what i mean. Now you're asking "what is normal". You're a "what if" guy. You just like to ask questions for the sake of it. You're never ever satisfied are you. With your approach you can never ever be sure anything.



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15 Feb 2015, 8:15 am

So rather than search for knowledge and gradually get closer to the actual nature of things, you believe we should stop asking why and what if and instead say PRAISE BE TO GOD. If this is your answer get off the computer, get out of your house, stop taking any form of transportation other than your own legs, forget how to make a fire and tools, live like a scavenger eating carrion and do not bother asking "what if I were to put these left over fur skins on my body". Oh and I forgot to mention never, ever visit a hospital, Dr, or pharmacy again.

People like you are nothing but parasites on science. You denigrate it, lie about it, belittle those who respect it. Yet use its discoveries all the same

Pathetic.


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15 Feb 2015, 8:39 am

There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


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sophisticated
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15 Feb 2015, 8:58 am

Narrator wrote:
There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


Can you give me an example of something you are sure of ?



Last edited by sophisticated on 15 Feb 2015, 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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15 Feb 2015, 9:01 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Ants are "wired" to stack grains of dirt, which results in them building elaborate nests. You cant stop them from doing it.

If humans were indeed "wired" to believe in God (the way ants and bees are wired to build hives, or ant hills) then you wouldnt be able to stop humans from believing regardless of logic and evidence to the contrary. So the existence of an instinct to believe in God would be evidence AGAINST the reality of God. Not for it.

If you were believer you would only be believing something that instinct dictates- and you would be immune to contrary evidence-which would imply that ANY notion of a deity is instinctive denial of evidence- which would make any notion that any of us have about a god existing suspect .

Humans are "wired" to NOT be able to see ultraviolet light. But that doesnt mean ultraviolet light doesnt exist.
If we as a species were wired TO see something that isnt there- it would not cause the hallucination to be real.

God may or may not exist. And this alledged inborn human instinct to believe in God, also may, or may not exist. But those are two seperate questions. Dont see the point of dragging one question in to argue about the other.


Nah, ants and bees are way too 'smart' for ceasing to build nests and hives, per just one day stopping TO DO THIS, without REAL DISEASE.

On the other hand, with humans, one can sit them behind a bright lit screen for hours on end everyday and feed them items full of fats and carbohydrates like Cheetos, until they succumb to disease, disorder, overall imbalance aka chronic stress, and or eventual suicide in a small percentage of 'CASES', OF really SMART humans.

And with humans one can also talk the female demographic into female genital mutilation, as a way to social acceptance and associated self-esteem.

And OH BOY THAT list of culturally inspired HUMAN INSANITY DOES GO ON..

While animals in the WILD LIVE on WITH THE GOD OF NATURE IN BALANCE PER ANIMAL HOMEOSTASIS ALSO know as what Eastern Philosophies, per Religion, do for a lifetime to attain in human ways....

The problem is humans, overall, are too 'smart' to simply live.

And THAT IS A DIRECT AND INDIRECT RESULT OF insane culture and the byproducts of both science and technology.

Humans are not evolved to live in large communes like Eusocial creatures, per example of the ANT or BEE.

Humans are evolved to connect to around 150 to 200 sets of social eyes, give or take whatever humans can culturally get used to, per cultural environment, lived in.

So the insanity, too, of culture is a tool used to repress, oppress, and subjugate human nature through illusory fears, to GET THEM UNDER CONTROL, to live in super sized societies.

It's kind of like a Big Mac or Whopper if one really THINKS ABOUT IT WITH COMMON SENSE.

IN OTHER words, metaphor instead of concrete facts.

Science shows that humans run on emotion for almost every rational decision.

Science shows that science is not capable of repeating each unique human experiment, as emotion, imagination, creativity, and dreams are of the 'Quantum' mind (metaphor alert), and not a 'Computer' mind that is the REAL ILLUSION.

THE ILLUSION of the concrete mind, is 'set in stone' by school.

MOST All primitive peoples believe in an integrated natural phenomenon of GOD in NATURE, SIMPLY CAUSE THEY ARE NOT SET IN STONE.

FOR people who STILL HAVE COMMON SENSE, OR EVER HAD IT, AND ARE NOT BRAIN WASHED by culture to live a life of the insanity of mind and body imbalance, THIS is clear as the nose on 'your face' if 'you' have one, considering 'you' are a faceless avatar 'too shy' to come out as who 'you' are (quotes around 'you' means that is not specifically directed at 'you').

There is not a specific gene identified as the empathy gene either.

There is not a specific gene identified as the unconditional love gene either.

There is not a specific gene identified for sadness either.

There is not a specific gene identified for happiness either.

There is not a specific gene identified for mischief either AND that list goes ON AND ON AND ON.....

There are genes identified for so-called Psychopathy, however.

There are genes identified for SO-CALLED Autism, however.

MOST All science can do is identify that human happiness is powered number one by healthy social relationships.

DUH, A SOCIAL ANIMAL NEEDING SOCIAL RELATIONSHIPS TO BE HAPPY...

IN 'THIS WORLD' SOME FOLKS RELY ON 'ROCKET SCIENTISTS' TO 'TIE THEIR SHOES'.

And the metaphor for that is, it is a culturally designed phenomenon, the shoe thingy, that generally speaking eventually leads to bad feet, as to walk barefoot, or better yet to dance barefoot like our SO-CALLED primitive ancestors is to gain POTENTIAL true root strength and balance on the way to human heaven, also known as simple animal homeostasis and or MIND AND BODY BALANCE.

It is quite amusing to me, to see folks arguing about if GOD exists..

While the true argument, in an almost red-alert emergency mode for human survival, without POTENTIAL eventual human misery, SHOULD BE, DO 'HUMAN BEINGS' even EXIST ANYMORE.

For any animal to live successfully is to live by instinct and intuition.

And with that comes the peace of mind and body balance that once is an integral part of Human Nature aligned in balance with Mother Nature TRUE aka GOD and still IS FOR THE minority of so-called first world civilized human beings WITH FIRST WORLD so-called human PROBLEMS.

AND HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN....

PHYSICAL INTELLIGENCE WHEN PRACTICED AS INSTINCTUAL AND INTUITIVE ART, like our so-called primitive ancestors did by remaining in mind and body balance like 'your' cat stalking the prey of a mouse in the backyard, or not being noticed by a potential predator dog, in yes, 'invisible' mind and bogy balance like a frigging NINJA IS AN AMAZING AND POSSIBLE WAY OF LIVING LIFE, LIKE IT ONCE WAS in mind and body BALANCE.

PHYSICAL intelligence this way drives emotional regulation, per the ability to enhance pro-social emotions and blunt con-social emotions otherwise known by the American Indian as feeding one human wolf of emotions over the other in metaphor of myth.

PHYSICAL intelligence this way drives sensory integration, like the ability for proprioception, where one can feel their way around one's environment without the other five so-called regular senses.

Most MODERN SO-CALLED CIVILIZED 'humans' rarely tap this type of human intelligence, and to have it more fully explored and developed, as what science names as the 6th sense now.

Additionally, science now shows that PHYSICAL intelligence drives cognitive executive functioning including focus and short term working memory effectiveness.

Any of this sounding familiar, per the symptoms of Autism.

It should but even most scientists that study Autism do not have the common sense to figure 'that' out that is plain as the nose on 'their' face.

It's the nature of the beast of the mechanical cognition mind that is fed a strict diet of mechanical cognition ways of cultural 'food' that has lost its INSTINCTUAL AND INTUITIVE ability for the art of social cognition, per empathy and connecting language with emotion, and the art of physical intelligence like our so-called primitive ancestors did when foraging from sunrise to sunset, and dancing around the fire of night wildly, freely in mind and body balance connecting with other humans this way, and connecting with Mother Nature True, this way, with all six senses of human being operating like a finely tuned 6-cylinder race car set on fire to live.

My cat who basks in the mid-day sun, rolling in the sand, spends 'his' time in mind and body balance, capturing prey and escaping predators, while maintaining status as an 'invisible ninja', also hugging the grass on a moonlit night with the clouds of human insanity passing right over 'his' head.

And I do the frigging

SAME sane sh**, PER METAPHOR.

And I for one 'TRULY SANE' INDIVIDUAL, never ever question the existence of either my INSTINCTUAL AND INTUITIVE Nature NOW, or Mother Nature TRUE NOW AKA GOD OR ALL THAT IS NOW, like my so-called primitive UNCIVILIZED Sioux and Cherokee ancestors who have REAL COMMON SENSE LIVING IN MIND AND BODY BALANCE WITH GOD THAT IS ALL THAT IS, when not diluted by cultural INSANITY.

'THEY' CALL IT THE GREAT SPIRIT, among other metaphors but it was and IS AS clear, as the nose on 'their' faces that THIS GOD OF NATURE EXISTS.

AND one can find this unifying reality of GOD as a common human archetype, NOT GENE, NO BIG SURPRISE, AMONG ALMOST ALL PRIMITIVE PEOPLE'S.

IT DOESN'T TAKE A ROCKET SCIENTIST TO FIGURE THIS STUFF OUT.

IN FACT, FACTS ARE OFTEN THE LIMITING FACTOR FOR THAT.

SO therefore, Rocket Scientists often have LITTLE TO no clue or even reference point for what this even is as many are functionally retarded in ways of physical ALL NATURAL TRUE, INSTINCTUAL INTUITIVE INTELLIGENCE, including emotional regulation, sensory integration, cognitive executive functioning, short term working memory, AND FOCUS ON WHAT IS EVEN FRIGGING REAL, IN WHAT IT EVEN MEANS TO BE A HUMAN BEING.

And that's my monologue..

FOR NOW. ;)


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15 Feb 2015, 9:23 am

sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


Can you give me an example of you are sure of ?

That's pretty non-specific.

I am sure of my IT knowledge, up to the limits of my training and experience.
I am sure my wife loves me, even though it can't be proved.
I am almost sure Sheldon Cooper is an Aspie.
I am sure that in September I will be 58.
I am as sure of evolution as my lay knowledge allows.
I am sure that life is an adventure, especially for us privileged westerners.
I am sure some of the above is not what you had in mind.
I am not sure exactly what answer you wanted, but I could continue the list if you like.


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sophisticated
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15 Feb 2015, 9:32 am

Narrator wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


Can you give me an example of you are sure of ?

That's pretty non-specific.

I am sure of my IT knowledge, up to the limits of my training and experience.
I am sure my wife loves me, even though it can't be proved.
I am almost sure Sheldon Cooper is an Aspie.
I am sure that in September I will be 58.
I am as sure of evolution as my lay knowledge allows.
I am sure that life is an adventure, especially for us privileged westerners.
I am sure some of the above is not what you had in mind.
I am not sure exactly what answer you wanted, but I could continue the list if you like.


How do you know you'll be 58 in September ?



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15 Feb 2015, 9:34 am

As long as one is not presumptuous enough to believe that everything is "certain," then that someone is all right with me.

One cannot predict what the future will hold for us. Even if we are "predetermined" in our life by some deity or other (the idea of which I find absurd), YOU are the one who could shake off the alleged predetermination.

No....Free Will is not absolute. But it is certainly present, and an important element of our individual and collective existence. If you don't use your Free Will, or are held back in a severe and disabling manner (yes, we are all "held back" in some manner), then you become vulnerable to the whims of others.

I don't trust anybody who either preaches total Free Will, or total Predetermination.

Its Absolutist Rubbish/Garbage--whatever you call that which is disposable.



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15 Feb 2015, 9:36 am

It's because Narrator is in possession of a birth certificate which tells him that he will be 58.

He has faith in the accuracy of the document, since there's ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why anybody would want to falsely create a birth certificate for him.

Moreover, there would be no reason why his parents would want to lie to him about his age that I could see.



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15 Feb 2015, 9:46 am

sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


Can you give me an example of you are sure of ?

That's pretty non-specific.

I am sure of my IT knowledge, up to the limits of my training and experience.
I am sure my wife loves me, even though it can't be proved.
I am almost sure Sheldon Cooper is an Aspie.
I am sure that in September I will be 58.
I am as sure of evolution as my lay knowledge allows.
I am sure that life is an adventure, especially for us privileged westerners.
I am sure some of the above is not what you had in mind.
I am not sure exactly what answer you wanted, but I could continue the list if you like.


How do you know you'll be 58 in September ?

A piece of paper, and a memory for peculiar details that goes back to when I first started to crawl.
Aside from that, my older sister is the keeper of the birthday book. lol


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A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


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15 Feb 2015, 9:50 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
It's because Narrator is in possession of a birth certificate which tells him that he will be 58.

He has faith in the accuracy of the document, since there's ABSOLUTELY NO REASON why anybody would want to falsely create a birth certificate for him.

Moreover, there would be no reason why his parents would want to lie to him about his age that I could see.


This is assuming Narrator is not adopted...

It was quite a shock to learn that birth certificates for adopted children before things were more "open" were often doctored... The date and place of birth might not be correct!

My husband is adopted, and if he goes to get his record which is now available to him, he might find out what he has believed to be his birthday and city of birth all this time is not correct.

You are right, though, it is faith in the document. No one can live without faith in some aspect of life. At some point, we must all decide what/who we believe is trustworthy enough to use that information to guide our lives.



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15 Feb 2015, 9:55 am

I've always loved to puzzle over expressions.
- The Preponderence of Evidence -
Maybe it's the lyrical aspect or the way it rolls off the tongue.

When I was a Christian, it used to bug me that other Christians said, "Praise the Lord."
Why? Because it's an instruction or description of what one does. It's not praise in and of itself.

Yet, we have these expressions that make little or no literal sense.
Reminds me of the Latin chants they use in high church.

:P


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I'm not blind to your facial expression - but it may take me a few minutes to comprehend it.
A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


sophisticated
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15 Feb 2015, 10:06 am

Narrator wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
sophisticated wrote:
Narrator wrote:
There are many things I am sure of, but the freedom to be uncertain is a good thing. You should try it sometime.

As for the "What is normal?" question, it helps to ask because definitions can be driven by agenda and bias. For example, people with a religious bias often define homosexuality with negatives - words like unnatural and abnormal. My definition no longer includes those ideas.

I could assume your position on homosexuality includes words of judgement. But I prefer to ask rather than assume. That's courtesy, not "what if."

But even if it was "what if," so what? It's a good thing to ask.


Can you give me an example of you are sure of ?

That's pretty non-specific.

I am sure of my IT knowledge, up to the limits of my training and experience.
I am sure my wife loves me, even though it can't be proved.
I am almost sure Sheldon Cooper is an Aspie.
I am sure that in September I will be 58.
I am as sure of evolution as my lay knowledge allows.
I am sure that life is an adventure, especially for us privileged westerners.
I am sure some of the above is not what you had in mind.
I am not sure exactly what answer you wanted, but I could continue the list if you like.


How do you know you'll be 58 in September ?

A piece of paper, and a memory for peculiar details that goes back to when I first started to crawl.
Aside from that, my older sister is the keeper of the birthday book. lol


What if the piece of paper is a forgery ?

What if your memory is letting you down ?

What if your sister is lying to you ?

You see .. you can question anything and everything . But its stupid . Be skeptical but not too skeptical . Ask questions, but don't question everything. DO NOT question axioms.



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15 Feb 2015, 10:09 am

If I could say it like Simon Pegg does, I'd say this:



I like this forum!.... always exciting. :D


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A smile is not always a smile.
A frown is not always a frown.
And a blank look rarely means a blank mind.


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15 Feb 2015, 10:18 am

sophisticated wrote:
What if the piece of paper is a forgery ?

What if your memory is letting you down ?

What if your sister is lying to you ?

You see .. you can question anything and everything . But its stupid . Be skeptical but not too skeptical . Ask questions, but don't question everything. DO NOT question axioms.


Those what-ifs are valid. That's the thing about certainty. It can be-it should be- revised in light of new evidence. However, it's more pragmatic to go about daily life as though the certainty is certain until new evidence does actually show up.

Here is where we differ. I say do ask questions and do question everything. But live your daily life with the information you have, while simultaneously being open to the possibility that you may get new information at a later date.

If you hold fast to the idea that some things should never be questioned, then if new information arrives, you will be in a mental trap, unable to assimilate it into your life.