05 May 2015, 5:58 pm
05 May 2015, 6:36 pm
Entropy means that energy can only "flow" from a higher energy "area" to a lower. Never the reverse and enthalpy does not, in any way, imply that it can, or does.
However, the specious implication that energy spontaneously produces order is the nonsense that underpins the superstition. It is a specious and outright false assumption; completely divorced from observable reality.
Here is a website that explains some common misconceptions about entropy- misconceptions you have.
http://entropysimple.oxy.edu/content.htm#photo
I think what he calls "briar patch #4" applies because you often use the orderly room/disorderly room metaphor to show things getting disordered without intentional intervention as an example of entropy.
In a natural spontaneous "energy-spreading-out" process, visible objects from pebbles to papers to pyramid stones can be moved to random locations if the magnitude and type of energy being dispersed impacts the objects to affect them. A common mistake in interpreting entropy change is to state that there is an entropy increase in the objects when things that we define as being in "orderly" arrangements are pushed around to random or "disorderly" arrangements. This is incorrect. It is looking at the passive half of the picture, the objects, instead of the energy that is pushing things around and becoming spread out in the process! Entropy change has to do with energy spreading out, not with pretty patterns. No entropy change occurs in objects if their energy is not altered after the move, thus, no increase in entropy is caused in them if no energy has been dispersed from them or to them. The messy room of a student may not appear to be a neat pattern but it does not represent any increase in entropy in the objects compared to an originally neat room. The only energy change that has occurred is in the energy dispersed in the student's muscles during the tossing or dropping of things here or there, not in the objects themselves.
Energy really can produce order when energy gets atoms to interact and form bonds.
Your metaphorical housewife will see that when she cooks.http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/menus/question616.htm
Boiling an egg is energy spontaneously producing order. The heated proteins unbond and then form new, stronger bonds when the heat energy is applied.
05 May 2015, 7:22 pm
To make up for this thread hijack I have taken part in, I present Jared Diamond, because he's cool.
http://www.jareddiamond.org/Jared_Diamond/Further_Reading_files/Why%20animals%20run%20on%20legs.pdf
It's a fun article on why animals don't have wheels that he wrote for Discover magazine, although I think he did a terrible job scanning it.
His whole worldview on researching things seems to be "why did things happen this way and not that way?" I liked his tagline that wonders why mustangs aren't more like Mustangs and impalas aren't more like Impalas. Haha cute.
DentArthurDent
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05 May 2015, 9:16 pm
05 May 2015, 9:56 pm
This is a great post!
Just trying to figure out the fine line between where evolution ends and invention begins is difficult to do. Of course I know evolution involves genes and invention doesn't. It seems like invention begins where evolution leaves off. When I look at other species, seems like evolution hasn't helped them in terms of invention as much. Some here and there like birds and certain nest builders are able to create structures that aid their survival but nothing as extravagant as what humans do.
Birds are fortunate to be able to fly while fish can swim extraordinarily fast. Humans aren't so good at either of these by themselves so this inventive part of evolution takes over where nature appears incomplete.
To me that says other animals are much better fit for the environment than humans, they don't need to invent things really to survive just fine...humans on the other hand do not fare well with nothing but their hands and feet to work with we need tools, clothes in a lot of areas to keep warm as humans tend not to be equipped with hair all over the body, weapons even just to more effectively hunt(well not so much now as you can go buy a steak) just seems most tasks other animals do without the use of inventions are things humans would not be so great at. I mean for instance back when humans depended on hunting and gathering for food I cannot very well picture humans pouncing on prey animals and biting/clawing them enough to kill them and then eating them nice and raw right there? a human needs tools to hunt something and turn it into food we can stomach.
That's about the size of it.
Humans not only make tools, but actually rely on tools to survive.
Evolution doesnt "require" "invention". But human inventiveness was selected for by evolution, but only very late in the game after billions of years of evolution had already happened. Most species don't "invent" things.
Also- I don't see how a ball point pen would have been "practical" at any point in pre human times (or even in most of human history). What use would a ball point pen have been to a trilobite? Or to a T-rex? Or for that matter- even to most humans who lived prior to the age of universal literacy in the Nineteenth Century?
06 May 2015, 4:24 pm
06 May 2015, 4:54 pm
Entropy means that energy can only "flow" from a higher energy "area" to a lower. Never the reverse and enthalpy does not, in any way, imply that it can, or does.
However, the specious implication that energy spontaneously produces order is the nonsense that underpins the superstition. It is a specious and outright false assumption; completely divorced from observable reality.
Here is a website that explains some common misconceptions about entropy- misconceptions you have.
http://entropysimple.oxy.edu/content.htm#photo
I think what he calls "briar patch #4" applies because you often use the orderly room/disorderly room metaphor to show things getting disordered without intentional intervention as an example of entropy.
In a natural spontaneous "energy-spreading-out" process, visible objects from pebbles to papers to pyramid stones can be moved to random locations if the magnitude and type of energy being dispersed impacts the objects to affect them. A common mistake in interpreting entropy change is to state that there is an entropy increase in the objects when things that we define as being in "orderly" arrangements are pushed around to random or "disorderly" arrangements. This is incorrect. It is looking at the passive half of the picture, the objects, instead of the energy that is pushing things around and becoming spread out in the process! Entropy change has to do with energy spreading out, not with pretty patterns. No entropy change occurs in objects if their energy is not altered after the move, thus, no increase in entropy is caused in them if no energy has been dispersed from them or to them. The messy room of a student may not appear to be a neat pattern but it does not represent any increase in entropy in the objects compared to an originally neat room. The only energy change that has occurred is in the energy dispersed in the student's muscles during the tossing or dropping of things here or there, not in the objects themselves.
Energy really can produce order when energy gets atoms to interact and form bonds.
Your metaphorical housewife will see that when she cooks.http://recipes.howstuffworks.com/menus/question616.htm
Boiling an egg is energy spontaneously producing order. The heated proteins unbond and then form new, stronger bonds when the heat energy is applied.
Nothing in nature can, or will, occur unless it is in accordance with entropy. Taking a lot of energy from one "place" and putting it into another (as in boiling an egg) is not anti-entropy; it is entropy in action. As I've said elsewhere, I don't expect to influence the zealots pushing their ideological (religious) agenda but I consider it a bounden duty to thwart their perverse influence wherever possible.
06 May 2015, 5:52 pm
07 May 2015, 1:05 am
07 May 2015, 8:58 am
07 May 2015, 11:16 am
Let'S face facts and common sense together as one happy family, if we can.
And to be clear, facts and common sense as the happy family;
As 'happy families' do not exist in 'no eyes and faces' online.
God IS NOT A FRIGGING notion of an anthropological form
named as human.
God IS FORCE; and we as little bitty humans can observe
THAT FORCE THAT MAKES ALL THAT IS IS
in action, both with eyes of nature and
aided eyes of science that is a byproduct
of that
same nature.
God is the entire FORCE that includes entropy.
But let's get REAL;
only an infinite FORCE
AKA GOD ALLONE
greater than entropy, ALONE, can make
the real deal of entropy real
at all. So obviously, what
we see as little bitty
humans with
our science
eyes on;
is just part of the whole real big
deal that is THE FORCE OF GOD
THAT IS INFINITY IN FORCE
ALWAYS GREATER THAN
ENTROPY, OTHERWISE
WHAT WE OBSERVE
AS ENTROPY
WILL
BE
IMPOSSIBLE WITH ANY FRIGGING COMMON SENSE;
THAT 'WE' TOO ARE GIFTED WITH AS CHILDREN
OF THE FORCE OF
GOD THAT
ALWAYS
HAS AND
WILL BE
NOW,
WITH ENTROPY AND MORE THAN
JUST THAT IN TERMS OF GREATER
FORCE TO MAKE REALITY FLOW
AS REALITY FLOWS FOR
NOW LIKE A RIVER
AND NOT A FRIGGING
DIGITAL CLOCK IN A
ROBOT MIND THAT
cannot see farther
than eyes of
science
alone;
without frigging
GOD GIVEN FORCE
OF COMMON
SENSE.
And honestly, if one does not
have GOD GIVEN common sense,
one
will never
ever get
THIS AT
ALL.
SO IN THAT CASE; SORRY, either
the force is not strong with ya;
or the force is weaker
without it in ya, as well,
as ya could be
WITH THE FORCE
INSTEAD OF
FRIGGING
AGAINST
IT IN
CYNICAL
DARKNESS
INSTEAD OF LIGHT
FORCE NOW AS ONE WITH THE FORCE;
Signed,
Yoda and
or someone
very much
like
'him'..
Just a note, by the way;
this is also 'proof' that
humans either add or take
away from THE FORCE NOW through
relative human free will of human energy
as force2; How that impacts the full Force is
an unknown at this point; but DO NOT UNDER-
ESTIMATE THE POWER OF NUCLEAR POWERED
HUMAN BRAINS and the rest of THAT BODY
IN BALANCE WORKING WITH
THE FORCE
INSTEAD
OF
AGAINST IT..
LET's JUST SAY; i've seen some of THAT
potential; REALLY UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL.
AND EVEN evidenced hints of THAT HERE; FOR THOSE
WITH enough FORCE
TO 'SEE'
IT..
SO YAH, that makes me proof that the FORCE OF GOD
EXISTS IN ME; but first one must understand more FULLY
THAT GOD IS FORCE AND NOT some little anthropomorphic
illusion, alone.
Signed,
whomever...
has the force
within, IN METAPHOR
AS HEART OF SOUL
EXPRESSED
AS SUCH, AS
FORCE,
AS WELL
AS THE
METAPHOR
OF HUMAN
SPIRIT ALONE
WITH ALLONE;
INSTEAD, of against ALLONE
aka FORCE AKA GOD OR WHATEVER
METAPHOR IS USED FOR ALLTHATISFORCE!
07 May 2015, 11:42 am
http://www.science20.com/train_thought/ ... rder-75081
Yup..
'She is just waking up'..
Tollorin
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07 May 2015, 4:36 pm
DentArthurDent
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Age: 59
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,884
Location: Victoria, Australia
07 May 2015, 5:49 pm
08 May 2015, 5:47 am
08 May 2015, 6:07 am
As usual I see things somewhat congruently to Sweetleaf (her post regarding ballpoint pens & touchscreen thingies) although I also observed a lot of unnecessary thinking in this thread - quite a weird thing for cberg to be saying, I know - Phillip Pullman attacked this question by proposing a hypothetical symbiosis. His imaginary creatures formed a relationship with large fruits/seeds. As these creatures exhibited bilateral symmetry inversely aligned from that of a deer; legs on each flank and front/back, they were able to hold the gourds axially with claws on their ventral legs whilst propelling themselves with their dorsal legs. Their roads? He posited that his alien wayfarers used swaths of smooth "pahoehoe" lava!
_________________
"Standing on a well-chilled cinder, we see the fading of the suns, and try to recall the vanished brilliance of the origin of the worlds."
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"I fly through hyperspace, in my green computer interface"
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