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Tollorin
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07 May 2015, 4:36 pm

Oldavid wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Firstly, "evolution" is purely an invention of egomaniacs. It does not exist anywhere in observable physics, chemistry or biology.

Yes it does. You have had this explained to you many times. Nothing in biology makes sense without evolution.
It has never been explained by anyone. An endlessly repeated assertion does not constitute an "explanation". Darwin-style "evolution" is scientifically (philosophically, physically, chemically, biologically, mathematically) impossible.

Real evolution is always and only in the direction of entropy. The impenetrable stupidity of egomaniacal clever-dicks is a perfect example. And that is the evolution that makes biological sense.

According to your conception of entropy it would be impossible for water to become ice.



DentArthurDent
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07 May 2015, 5:49 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Real evolution is always and only in the direction of entropy.


I love this, so according to your understanding of Entropy we started off far more complex and have been devolving over time. I assume this is what you mean, would you like to explain what you mean by "Real Evolution".


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08 May 2015, 5:47 am

Oldavid wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Look at what I actually wrote. I didn't say boiling the egg reduced entropy. I said it produced order. You are using the terms "entropy" and "disorder" as though they were synonomous. They aren't. When you boil an egg you increase its order and it's entropy.
Increasing order is reducing entropy. Have another unbiased think about the Second Law of Thermodynamics.


The second law of thermodynamics applies only to closed systems. If you take a total closed system into account then the total amount of entropy has increased. However, in an open system, energy can move in and out of the system and so can entropy. Therefore, entropy can decrease in an open system, because it can escape and increase somewhere else. Neither life nor the egg example is a closed system. In the egg example energy (and entropy) is released into the surroundings or the environment (consider it a heat bath), so while the total entropy has still increased, the entropy in the egg itself has decreased. It's the same with life. Life is not a closed system because living things absorb and release energy into the environment, the system is not closed and self contained. If you take the total system into account i.e. both the living organism and it's environment, then the total amount of entropy has increased but that does not mean that it has to increase within the organism itself.



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08 May 2015, 6:07 am

As usual I see things somewhat congruently to Sweetleaf (her post regarding ballpoint pens & touchscreen thingies) although I also observed a lot of unnecessary thinking in this thread - quite a weird thing for cberg to be saying, I know - Phillip Pullman attacked this question by proposing a hypothetical symbiosis. His imaginary creatures formed a relationship with large fruits/seeds. As these creatures exhibited bilateral symmetry inversely aligned from that of a deer; legs on each flank and front/back, they were able to hold the gourds axially with claws on their ventral legs whilst propelling themselves with their dorsal legs. Their roads? He posited that his alien wayfarers used swaths of smooth "pahoehoe" lava!


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08 May 2015, 10:12 am

If one ignores or defies the restrictions imposed by reality then any fantastic speculation is as "real" as any unreality.



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08 May 2015, 12:03 pm

Oldavid wrote:
If one ignores or defies the restrictions imposed by reality then any fantastic speculation is as "real" as any unreality.


What restrictions? I've just explained in my previous post why life and evolution does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics (increasing entropy). Oh and by the way, I'm doing a PhD in physics (i.e. I've studied this stuff whereas I'm guessing that you have not).



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08 May 2015, 12:48 pm

Jono wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
If one ignores or defies the restrictions imposed by reality then any fantastic speculation is as "real" as any unreality.


What restrictions? I've just explained in my previous post why life and evolution does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics (increasing entropy). Oh and by the way, I'm doing a PhD in physics (i.e. I've studied this stuff whereas I'm guessing that you have not).
When they give you your PhD take it as an acknowledgement that you are considered a reliable purveyor of fashionable nonsense.



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08 May 2015, 1:17 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Jono wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
If one ignores or defies the restrictions imposed by reality then any fantastic speculation is as "real" as any unreality.


What restrictions? I've just explained in my previous post why life and evolution does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics (increasing entropy). Oh and by the way, I'm doing a PhD in physics (i.e. I've studied this stuff whereas I'm guessing that you have not).
When they give you your PhD take it as an acknowledgement that you are considered a reliable purveyor of fashionable nonsense.


I see, so it's all a conspiracy by the people who actually thought of ideas like entropy who are spreading misinformation is it? Tell me, what degree do you have?



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08 May 2015, 1:22 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Jono wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
If one ignores or defies the restrictions imposed by reality then any fantastic speculation is as "real" as any unreality.


What restrictions? I've just explained in my previous post why life and evolution does not run counter to the second law of thermodynamics (increasing entropy). Oh and by the way, I'm doing a PhD in physics (i.e. I've studied this stuff whereas I'm guessing that you have not).
When they give you your PhD take it as an acknowledgement that you are considered a reliable purveyor of fashionable nonsense.


Are you aware that you are making the staggering claim that knowledge of physics is inversely related to the amount of time spent studying it?



Oldavid
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08 May 2015, 4:07 pm

I've had the lifetime of either of you with a compelling fascination for things science. Fortunately, though, I was spared the compulsion to worship at the altar of political convenience.

I will also make the staggering claim that institutionalised ignorance is the mainstay of all the perversity associated with the religious ideology of Materialism.



DentArthurDent
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09 May 2015, 7:06 am

I see you are refusing to explain exactly what Real Evolution means. This is typical of you david you stomp around here beating your chest, yet you actually never really explain what you regard as real science, and you have now thrown Real Evolution into the mix. Cmon David, have the courage of your convictions and actually spell out what it is that you actually believe. Surely to goodness you are not going to maintain that life started of complex and has been devolving?

You talk about ideology, well yes I have one, which is to look for a natural explanation before I accept the existence of the supernatural, this ideology has taken humanity a very long way. You on the other hand accept only the science that does not interfere with your creationist ideology. You stubbornly stand to this idiocy in the face of overwhelming evidence that you ARE WRONG. For pities sake are you really that foolish to believe a world wide conspiracy involving millions of scientists for nigh on 200 years is even remotely possible, and for what? to deny the truth of creation! You claim that this has been achieved for the sake of money and fame, yet you ignore the reality that all it would take is one scientist to produce a paper outlining what YOU know and the whole bubble bursts. For crying out loud you creationists have poured resource after resource into trying to disprove evolution and you simply cannot. You talk of people being gullible, and fixated on an outcome. David this is YOU.


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09 May 2015, 4:04 pm

I have explained in considerable detail what real evolution is and how it works, including the real practicalities of stock breeding and the "accidental", or "natural" variation that does occur. You simply refuse to hear or see.

There are many excellent real scientists who have done excellent work in this area but are censored out of the mainstream, or popular, publications. I have even given some links to such; knowing that it is useless because your automatic censorship will refuse to consider such.



iBlockhead
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09 May 2015, 5:12 pm

^^^

With your references to "Morphology," breeding, entropy, etc., are you actually implying that Lemarckian views are accurate? I wouldn't be accusing people of censorship, etc., given which former world leaders actually supported that idea.



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09 May 2015, 5:27 pm

iBlockhead wrote:
^^^

With your references to "Morphology," breeding, entropy, etc., are you actually implying that Lemarckian views are accurate? I wouldn't be accusing people of censorship, etc., given which former world leaders actually supported that idea.
Not at all. Quite the opposite, in fact.

The idea that a lizard ran around flapping his arms until his scales frayed into feathers and then passed the frayed scales on to his progeny is the stuff of Darwinist fantasy.

Censorship need not be a formally defined policy. Usually it isn't in these circumstances. Just ensuring that the editorial staff is of the required mindset ensures that only ideologically "appropriate" material is published.



milksnake
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09 May 2015, 5:36 pm

Now would be a good time for those links to resurface...



Oldavid
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10 May 2015, 7:11 am

milksnake wrote:
Now would be a good time for those links to resurface...
I do not intend to re-present all the links I have provided, but have a flick through this lot. There's something for everyone interested in any area of science.

http://www.trueorigin.org/camplist.php

I do not necessarily endorse all, or any, of the material presented here; but it certainly provides incontrovertible evidence that there are many well credentialed and knowledgeable scientists who do not blindly follow the media popularised and "official", "establishment" version of "science".