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Oldavid
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14 May 2015, 7:09 am

Grebels wrote:
I think the answer has to go beyond chemical reactions. A real issue is when does a fetus become a living being. I wouldn't know, but having seen some scans probably long before birth.
You show a perspicacity and honesty that seems to have been hunted out of this forum. Consider; a live sperm cannot fertilise a dead egg, or vice-versa. Life is a product of life and a zygote is alive right from the start or it, dead chemicals degrade into simpler dead chemicals. Only a live sperm and a live egg can make a live zygote.



aghogday
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14 May 2015, 9:04 am

Oldavid wrote:
Grebels wrote:
I think the answer has to go beyond chemical reactions. A real issue is when does a fetus become a living being. I wouldn't know, but having seen some scans probably long before birth.
You show a perspicacity and honesty that seems to have been hunted out of this forum. Consider; a live sperm cannot fertilise a dead egg, or vice-versa. Life is a product of life and a zygote is alive right from the start or it, dead chemicals degrade into simpler dead chemicals. Only a live sperm and a live egg can make a live zygote.




Perhaps, the GREAtest
stuff of modern science is it allows
humans the ability for proper perspective
in humility of our smallness and insignificance
in the whole of all that IS GOD AS BLANKET OF ALL.

For thousands of years, folks consider rocks inanimate objects,
until science provides human aided eyes that are SMALL ENOUGH
to see that rocks consist of the same nucleuses and electrons spinning
around in spiraling movement that humans consist of. ADDITIONALLY, NOW;
science even shows that all movement makes a sound in VIBRATION; no matter
WHAT the THING IS THAT
HAS electrons SPIRALING
around nucleuses.

WE ARE ALLONE AND CONNECTED LIKE A BLANKET
is evidenced by science, my friend.

And WE includes rocks, as in the same type of electrons
that move in golden spirals around the nucleuses IN ROCKS,
AS human beings, zygotes, sperm, and eggs just waiting for sperm too.

To suggest that GOD AS WHOLE cannot create life OUT of star dust is NOT to understand GOD; not even with eyes of science; which is kinda sad; AS to understand that WE ALL consist of the same stuff is to NOT have bigotry against a person of other color; INCLUDING women; homosexuals; folks with disabilities; folks in other religions and countries, OR a grain of sand, as any LESS, than the WHOLE that is human being and GOD as ONE FORCE OF LIFE FOR NOW THAT IS ALL THAT IS.

Consider this; without THAT grain of sand, as the dirty details of life, tHere will never be any humans, as thEre will never ever be any of GOD's earth as whole weight required for the gravity that even allows US to stand upon those grains of life that nurture us in a different way than the breath of life; but never the less, unconditionally love us with the gravity of GOD whether we ask for that LOVE or not.

There are many types of LOVE;

but the bottom line is LOVE IS ANYTHING THAT NURTURES LIFE.

THERE ARE WORDS OF AFFIRMATION; TOUCH; GIFTS; ACTS OF SERVICE; QUALITY TIME, AS
INDICATED BY THE SCIENCE OF LOVE. BEYOND SCIENCE, THERe IS THE UNCONDITIONAL
LOVE OF HUMAN THAT WITH SCIENCE IS ALTRUISM AS WELL, WHICH IS THE
SIXTH TYPE OF HUMAN LOVE.

SO YEAH, GOD AS WHOLE IS LOVE; THE GREATEST 7TH TYPE OF LOVE
THAT DOES NOT EVEN REQUIRE WHAT WE NAME AS HUMAN
SENSES AND FEELINGS.

SO YES; MY FRIEND; BOTH LOVE AND

HUMAN LIFE AS UNCONDITIONAL LOVE

IS WRITTEN IN THE STONE.

IF YOUR EYES ARE NOT

SMALL ENOUGH,

AIDED BY SCIENCE TO SEE THIS;

YOU MAY STAY BLIND IF YOU LIKE;

BUT I FOR ONE AM NOT AFRAID
OF THE

TRUTH THAT I COME
FROM DUST,
AND
DUST
SO
SHALL
I
RETURN.

And the greaTEST
PART OF
THAT OF
ALL IS
THAT
DUST
SHALL
RETURN
AGAIN;
OTHERWISE,
theRe is NO
way dust gets
HERE
in the
FIRST
PLACE,
MY FRIEND.

FIRST ThERE IS DARKNESS;
THEN THeRE IS LIGHT;
THEN THErE IS
MOVEMENT OR DANCE;
THEN THERE IS SOUND OR SONG;
AFTER THAT THERE IS MATTER;
AND EVENTUALLY A GRAIN OF
SAND. AFTER THAT; LONG AFTER;
THERE IS HUMAN LIFE THAT STANDS
UPON THE LIFE OF A GRAIN OF SAND; ALL
CREATED FROM STAR DUST WITH ELECTRONS
TOO; ALL SPIRALING AROUND NUCLEUSES, NOW
GENERATING SOUND THAT INSPIRES MOVEMENT
IN INFINITY OF NOW; THEN SONG OF HUMAN IN WORDS
OF LYRICS AND TUNES OF VOCAL CHORD; AND THEN SCIENCE
REPLICATED INSTRUMENTS GENERATE SOUND OF SONG, AND INSPIRE HUMANS
TO GO ON IN MOVEMENT OF DANCE IN
INFINITE GOLDEN SPIRALING LOOPS
OF NOW TOO, AS
ABOVE
SO
BE
LOW.

SO YEAH;
to write is
to approximate
feelings to inspire
others IN SIGN
LANGUAGE,
from science
to prose to poetry.

To dance and sing
IS DIVINE; THE ULTIMATE
EXPRESSION OF DIVINE GOD
GIVEN LOVE, AS ABOVE SO BELOW.

GOD, it's NO wonder that the METAPHOR
of APOLLO GETS SO MUCH FREE PRESS, TOO.

Well, as an instrument of ALLAH AKA GOD;
AS CO-CREATOR AS WELL; I WILL CALL THIS ONE
'GOD IS WRITTEN IN ROCK AND ROLL'.

AND TO BE CLEAR, 'OLDAVID';
I BELONG TO NO
RELIGION;
I BELONG TO
GOD
ALONE.

I JUST LOVE THE WAY
THE METAPHOR ALLAH
ROLLS OFF MY TONGUE
AND ROOF OF MOUTH.

GOD CAN BE SUCH A
CRUDE WORD, AS IT
COMES FROM THE
PHLEGM OF THE
BACK OF
THE
THROAT.
IT'S LIKE THE PRECURSOR
OF SPITTING, IF YOU WILL;
INSTEAD OF THE DIVINE
FEMININE GRACE
OF ALLAH
IN BALLET
OF
TONGUE
AND ROOF
OF
MOUTH.

Have a great day friend;
and keep THAT inspiration
coming in
prose
for NOW..;)

AND PERHAPS ONE DAY,
YOU MY FRIEND, WILL DANCE
AND SING AGAIN; IF YOU DON'T
ALREADY DO IT NURTURING THE RANCH;
SAME AS GOD; AS ABOVE SO BELOW; OUR FRIENDS
FROM A GRAIN OF SAND AND SO, SO MUCH MORE.. .


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Grebels
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14 May 2015, 1:18 pm

Oldavid, I think your answer is completely logical.

Hi aghogday, I will conclude that God is everything. We might enjoy that wonderful thing, but have sought be be apart from that creation. As an artist I experience being in the flow. I will not try to explain the hows or whys, but can say I know which colour paints to use and each brush stroke is beautiful. It is life at its fullest and most effective. It is not standing in the way by using the natural intellect to block the most wonderful things from creativity.

However, we may define life, consciousness a vital thing to be considered. However, I am not sure the brightest philosophers will ever get to grips with it. I understand Whitehead has written more that enough about the subject, but I cannot get beyond his first page. Then philosophy was never my subject. I haven't even got to grips with Berkeley. A thing which does strike me is the academics involved with this kind of thought are mathmeticians.



aghogday
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14 May 2015, 1:56 pm

Grebels wrote:
Oldavid, I think your answer is completely logical.

Hi aghogday, I will conclude that God is everything. We might enjoy that wonderful thing, but have sought be be apart from that creation. As an artist I experience being in the flow. I will not try to explain the hows or whys, but can say I know which colour paints to use and each brush stroke is beautiful. It is life at its fullest and most effective. It is not standing in the way by using the natural intellect to block the most wonderful things from creativity.

However, we may define life, consciousness a vital thing to be considered. However, I am not sure the brightest philosophers will ever get to grips with it. I understand Whitehead has written more that enough about the subject, but I cannot get beyond his first page. Then philosophy was never my subject. I haven't even got to grips with Berkeley. A thing which does strike me is the academics involved with this kind of thought are mathmeticians.


Yes, I agree. And from my perspective, changing from Artistic to Autistic, in flow, instead of the cold logic of systemizing science, is much more than just an r or u..:)

Certainly, IT IS A HUGE, ALMOST UNIVERSAL difference, in effect and AFFECT, between crawling around in a cocoon, as opposed to floating on land in flow, as a terrestrial butterfly..:)

REAL philosophy is ART.

The mathematics of
philosophy that is logic,
is still mathematics at core,
and extremely limited to assess or even access,
the full human condition, and the rest of Nature as GOD..:)


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The_Walrus
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15 May 2015, 4:22 pm

Grebels wrote:
I think the answer has to go beyond chemical reactions. A real issue is when does a fetus become a living being. I wouldn't know, but having seen some scans probably long before birth.

It becomes a living being at the point of conception. It doesn't become a person until well after birth, if ever.



Fugu
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15 May 2015, 5:10 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Grebels wrote:
I think the answer has to go beyond chemical reactions. A real issue is when does a fetus become a living being. I wouldn't know, but having seen some scans probably long before birth.

It becomes a living being at the point of conception. It doesn't become a person until well after birth, if ever.
it doesn't become anything more than a collection of cells until the 8th/9th week of pregnancy. until then it's about as much a 'living being' as an ameoba



techstepgenr8tion
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15 May 2015, 6:09 pm

One particular offering - the ever-controversial and enigmatic dance of the electric and magnetic:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


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aghogday
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15 May 2015, 6:24 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
One particular offering - the ever-controversial and enigmatic dance of the electric and magnetic:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Yes, as metaphor, getting in balance with the polarities of life;
Using Light and Dark as a mix of propelling emotional and
sensory energy;

It's an innate, instinctual, and intuitive process for me;
and whatever the organic components are,
the relative free will that I create
as human being in the i
of I for the spirit
in exclamation
point! flow
does
seem
rather
atomic
in nature of
magnetic and electric
properties; but to feel
the power of it and the effects
of this AFFECT IS REAL; ALTHOUGH
not everyone feels this FORCE OF HUMAN
AS STRONG; AND SOME SO SADLY, LITTLE AT ALL;
I FOR one can say; from my own personal experience
of wearing so many human shoes in just one life as
many people do
today
with or
without
this real
HUMAN FORCE.


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Fugu
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15 May 2015, 8:13 pm

aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
One particular offering - the ever-controversial and enigmatic dance of the electric and magnetic:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Yes, as metaphor, getting in balance with the polarities of life;
Using Light and Dark as a mix of propelling emotional and
sensory energy;

It's an innate, instinctual, and intuitive process for me;
and whatever the organic components are,
the relative free will that I create
as human being in the i
of I for the spirit
in exclamation
point! flow
does
seem
rather
atomic
in nature of
magnetic and electric
properties; but to feel
the power of it and the effects
of this AFFECT IS REAL; ALTHOUGH
not everyone feels this FORCE OF HUMAN
AS STRONG; AND SOME SO SADLY, LITTLE AT ALL;
I FOR one can say; from my own personal experience
of wearing so many human shoes in just one life as
many people do
today
with or
without
this real
HUMAN FORCE.
you need to resume your meds, poor schizoprenic people.



aghogday
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15 May 2015, 10:33 pm

Fugu wrote:
aghogday wrote:
techstepgenr8tion wrote:
One particular offering - the ever-controversial and enigmatic dance of the electric and magnetic:

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image


Yes, as metaphor, getting in balance with the polarities of life;
Using Light and Dark as a mix of propelling emotional and
sensory energy;

It's an innate, instinctual, and intuitive process for me;
and whatever the organic components are,
the relative free will that I create
as human being in the i
of I for the spirit
in exclamation
point! flow
does
seem
rather
atomic
in nature of
magnetic and electric
properties; but to feel
the power of it and the effects
of this AFFECT IS REAL; ALTHOUGH
not everyone feels this FORCE OF HUMAN
AS STRONG; AND SOME SO SADLY, LITTLE AT ALL;
I FOR one can say; from my own personal experience
of wearing so many human shoes in just one life as
many people do
today
with or
without
this real
HUMAN FORCE.
you need to resume your meds, poor schizoprenic people.


Perhaps, if you get a spelling lesson, you will Know WHAT
the hell you are talking about too, my little man..;)

I didn't get a beautiful wife, financially independent,
and literally hundreds of gorgeous dance partners
as documented on my blogs; from
having mental illness, friend.

I am creative with imagination
and the women love me, just the way I am.

And if you think I'm blowing smoke out of somewhere, you can do a little Google search on
"God's Muse of Dance", and see all the irrefutable evidence, in close to 200 gorgeous girls smiling ear to
ear, hanging on me as well, by the muse of dance I bring.

And one day, if you get to be a really big man like me, you can press maybe close to half a ton like me,
in the video provided below, when you grow out of your domesticated diapers my friend, as well.

But meanwhile keep your LITTLE personal attacks to yourself, AND better directed at yourself;
as I am real and CAN PROVE IT IN PHOTOS; and you are just 4 letters on a screen
and nothing more, at least for now, online..;)



Perhaps, you will be another one of the 'fun ones' here for me..;)

If so, looking forward to that as well..;)


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aghogday
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15 May 2015, 11:07 pm

^^^
And IN addendum:

And by the way, speaking of amoebas that ARE alive,
including Fetuses, from the moment of conception,
as science DOES PROVE IN BIOLOGY 101 CLASSES;

I find folks who go around doing little personal attacks,
hiding behind faceless avatars, online, less than amoebas
AND human. You would never ever dare to do that to may face,
at 230LBS of muscle and clear headed martial arts skills. But anyone
can be a big man on the Internet, huh, behind a faceless user name.

Folks like you disgust me; and boy do I really love to play with them in
FLESH AND BLOOD LIFE..:) IT'S fun to be able to do stuff, no one will ever
expect
is
even
humanly possible.
And I'm talking about
Martial Arts REAL LIFE skills;
not Voodoo, or such as that.
I CLEARLY STATED ABOVE
I AM USING METAPHORS.
IF ONE DAY
YOU SPELL
AND READ INTERPRETIVELY, AS WELL;
CHI IS WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT
DUDE; AND ANY REAL MARTIAL
ARTIST CAN TELL YA
THAT'S AS REAL
AS THE NOSE
ON YOUR
FACE; BUT
YOU DO NOT
SHOW A NOSE,
HERE, SO THERE IS
no evidence yet, YOU
HAVE ONE OF THOSE EITHER..;)


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Oldavid
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17 May 2015, 5:52 am

Grebels wrote:
However, we may define life, consciousness a vital thing to be considered. However, I am not sure the brightest philosophers will ever get to grips with it. A thing which does strike me is the academics involved with this kind of thought are mathmeticians.
I am sure that the brightest philosophers have already come to grips with it... the mathematicians are preoccupied with their surrealistic fantasies.

Defining life and consciousness would be an impossible thing for a Materialist. Even an amoeba will try to retreat from an hostile chemical... is that consciousness?

Perhaps more to the point of your insinuation about consciousness, 8 to 18 year-old humans tend to assume that younger or older are not yet, or way past, fully consciousness. Extend the same kind of rationale before 8 days and after 80 years.



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17 May 2015, 6:20 am

@ Oldavid

Penrose....surrealistic fantasies?

Please tell me who these philosophers who have a grip on consciousness are.



0_equals_true
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17 May 2015, 6:37 am

Oldavid wrote:
Grebels wrote:
However, we may define life, consciousness a vital thing to be considered. However, I am not sure the brightest philosophers will ever get to grips with it. A thing which does strike me is the academics involved with this kind of thought are mathmeticians.
I am sure that the brightest philosophers have already come to grips with it... the mathematicians are preoccupied with their surrealistic fant


There is nothing surreal about mathematics, you are confusing abstraction with surreal. The main application is to come up with physical models, and theoretical physics relates to physical models too, even when there are hypothetical parts.

Quite frankly Oldavid you are waffling, if you ever had a semblance of a point it is long past that. I ask again what is the point of these threads? You resent the fact that other's don't agree with you? Go an find those that do and get over it.

The second thing: I asked you multiple times, is given this is your premise, when are you actually goign to provide the goods as far as showing what models in philosophy which do a better job at explaining things than science? So far nothing, just you don't like the idea that science is necessarily the best tool for the job. Great, good for you.

It is you creating a mountain out of a molehill. You don't want to elaborate, but berate science and scientists, who have done nothing but do what they aught to be doing.



The_Walrus
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17 May 2015, 7:09 am

Fugu wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
Grebels wrote:
I think the answer has to go beyond chemical reactions. A real issue is when does a fetus become a living being. I wouldn't know, but having seen some scans probably long before birth.

It becomes a living being at the point of conception. It doesn't become a person until well after birth, if ever.
it doesn't become anything more than a collection of cells until the 8th/9th week of pregnancy. until then it's about as much a 'living being' as an ameoba

Agreed. Are amoebas not living beings? I don't think they are worthy of rights or protection, but they're certainly both alive and being.

Oldavid wrote:
Defining life and consciousness would be an impossible thing for a Materialist.

It's easier for a materialist than... whatever it is that you are, exactly. A dualist? You've not provided any sensible definition of life, whereas the materialists who have posted in this thread have made real stabs at it. Dualists postulate something undetectable and pretend that answers the question, rather than simply punting it into the long grass. Materialists attempt to answer it and acknowledge that they aren't there yet.
Quote:
Even an amoeba will try to retreat from an hostile chemical... is that consciousness?

No.
Consciousness, at least for me, requires a mental state rather than a simple reflex. Amoebas do not have that.



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17 May 2015, 7:34 am

Helsinki University have long been involved with research into consciousness using mathematics. I read they have now been able to organise a big conference on the subject.