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Grebels
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19 May 2015, 4:10 pm

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I think that most, if not all, 'real' art is produced by people with too much spare time and not enough gumption to get real jobs.


That is just a hurtful thing to say. I am retired so have no need to earn money from my art, except maybe to pay some costs.

I speak to many of the artists who and exhibit in my town. I also speak to gallery owners. A few years back I was told that top artists were earning 27,500 pounds p.a. The average respectable professional artist earned 8,000. Those artists were nearly all working. A majority of artists I know in my town are women married to high earning professional men. Some of them still have jobs.



auntblabby
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19 May 2015, 6:51 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
I detest the elitist mindset that says if you don't understand art that you never will, and that explanations of art are not only a waste of time but somehow diminish the art.


They probably say that because for some pieces of art, they can't describe what it means to them. Like literature, each individual takes something different from it than someone else might. I've found that with my art, people ascribe meaning where I never put any, while others just say "Oh, I guess that's nice..." I don't mind explaining my art to people, though, and I think any description should come from the artist, even if it's just "I dunno what it means, I merely wanted to paint it." Otherwise, the person is describing their perception of art rather than explaining what the piece meant to the artist.

Some people will never... understand? art to the extent others will, but that doesn't mean they can't enjoy it and for it to have meaning for them. For me, art is just a way to pour myself out to the world, whether they understand it "correctly" or not.

:wtg: you are a good artist :thumleft:



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20 May 2015, 12:55 am

Art is the only way I can print out the pictures in my mind.

Those who never tried become Critics. I remember one who went as far as to bring a piece of 'real art', to show me what a failure I was. It was a tracing of a photo then colored in Photoshop. They thought it an original creation.

I was illustrating a science fiction story, a form now called Manga, where text and pictures get equal billing. The work they showed was for a newspaper ad. Besides trying to convince me to quit defacing paper, they helped, because my drawing pad vanished after they left.

From Critic they promote themselves to Art Police, supported by friends who got a Degree in Art.

I was treated like a criminal Art Bootlegger. I produced without permission, training, or diploma.

Making lines on paper, a little colored pencil, and people are demanding to know what Art Gallery is going to show it.

I write stories, I get demands to know who my Publisher is.

People will walk past three stray dogs to kick an artist.

The number of people who read, who own books, is about equal to the number of people who own art prints. It is between 1 and 2%.

The number of people who produce anything written or drawn is much smaller.

Getting a Patent on an Invention, between One in 5,000 to 10,000.

Those who own an original canvas, by anyone, are a smaller number yet.

The creative arts are rare, but Critics outnumber football fans, including those who only watch TV.

I write stories starting from somewhere in the middle. There is something worth a story, a key point, where all before or after is lead in or ending. Story ideas do not have developed characters, locations, that is for later.

I draw pictures that are a frame in a story, as I move from image to image, just as I build on words.

It is not something I have, it is something I am reaching for.

Art for me is productive only when I reach beyond my ability. I often fail, but think part of it came out right.

Writing is rewriting, followed by rewriting. On a good day ten pages will make one. Thousands of pages are needed to produce one tight 245 page story.

Ten drawings may lead to one image, where the parts fit and merge. The good image then gets color, larger, but it is still shaping my ability to show what is in my mind.

The Point of Art is to turn yourself inside out, and leave a long term copy of what was a thought.



Grebels
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20 May 2015, 5:44 am

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I detest the elitist mindset that says if you don't understand art that you never will, and that explanations of art are not only a waste of time but somehow diminish the art.


The artist can be a person who portrays what most people do not see. Also art has its own language. Would you destest a person of another country because you do not speak their language? The language of art is not a secret, except for so much of Renaissance painting. Many of those secrets has simply been lost.



aghogday
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20 May 2015, 10:51 am

Grebels wrote:
Quote:
I think that most, if not all, 'real' art is produced by people with too much spare time and not enough gumption to get real jobs.


That is just a hurtful thing to say. I am retired so have no need to earn money from my art, except maybe to pay some costs.

I speak to many of the artists who and exhibit in my town. I also speak to gallery owners. A few years back I was told that top artists were earning 27,500 pounds p.a. The average respectable professional artist earned 8,000. Those artists were nearly all working. A majority of artists I know in my town are women married to high earning professional men. Some of them still have jobs.


Truly the statement that 'real art is produced by people with too much spare time and not enough gumption to get real jobs' can only be made by an individual lost in an illusion that humans are machines instead of art at core.

The most beautiful thing about the 'robot minds' who create the Information Technology revolution is the price of the palette required to produce art now is pennies on the priceless nature of the human soul, heart, and spirit alive verses dead in life.

Now one can write limitlessly almost for free; produce tens of thousands of photographs only dreamed of before and shared with millions of folks world-wide.

In my artistic efforts I spend around $3,000 on T-shirts with artistic symbols to portray many faced actors of my own play of art of Zen ego produced life in digital art on blogs and YouTube way.

I spend about $500 dollars or so on three Nike GPS Sports watches to carry me through 3596 miles of dance walk in martial arts and ballet style-like way to measure this in empirical way to prove what I do is what I do to the naysayers of life, as well.

AND I spend around $1000 dollars on 8 pairs of Nike Shox shoes of soles in soul, to last these 21 months of dance to get where I am today, along with the feats of strength in extreme weight training getting me to the power of leg pressing 930LBS 14 times slowly on parallel leg press machine with my arms raised in air, for what it takes to be a real life metaphorical superman to move like a terrestrial butterfly on land.

Since 2013, I literally output 5 million words of all types of prose, epic free verse poetry and all things in between; now reaching over 10 million words since Thanksgiving day of 2010, starting here on this website, to escape physical pain of what is described in modern medicine as the suicide disease, type two Trigeminal Neuralgia, during all waking hours, like novocaine-less dentist drilling in right eye and ear; starting with laundry lists of words in 2010; with pain starting in 2008 to extreme extent and lasting until the end of July 2013, in what doctors describe as an all miraculous recovery of a total of a life threatening synergy of 19 medical disorders.

In the last two years, on average, I spend 16 hours a day, 7 seven days a week, dancing and writing, and imagining new creative ways of living life and putting the in action in flesh and blood ways.

I do not make a penny off of all of this.

But you see my friend, GOD is Art, and when humans become art they do reflect the God of Nature as Art.

To become an instrument of Art is to reflect God and in tandem to become an instrument of imagination

And creativity with, instead of against God, in what can commonly be described as the potential darkness
of mechanical cognition verses social cognition ways of thinking and living life in or out of mind
and body balance.

My reward is the all natural one provided intrinsically by the God of nature, from hundreds of smiling gorgeous girls ear to ear attached to me from the muse of dance I bring to them documented on all on my blogs; to the over 1.1 million views now of of my art, just on the Google plus source, inspiring people globally wherever my art goes in eyes of other human beings with the potential to enjoy it, frustrate them; but at core to challenge the way they view life, as is, for now.

There is no greater achievement in life, whether rewarded by western ideas of material wealth or not, than becoming an instrument of God that is truly instrument of creative imagination of human being creatively expressed as spirit of human mind and body in balance as soul, and feeling human heart.

And to never understand this, my friend, is the saddest of all realities; and truly it only hurts those who experience life with not ever knowing the God of nature at core value within the Art of human being or expressing that nature of God as Art with other human beings, in human evolving spirit, in just one lifetime, as humans are naturally evolved to do for both social cooperation and much greater existential intelligence, in peace of mind and body in balance.

I am here to help. But there are few ears who can, are willing, or with patience enough to truly hear and see what I am attempting to say, in every way possible of suggesting people can both be free and reflect the GOD of Nature in more freely connecting to other human beings and the rest of nature, as we are simply evolved to be for now as work and practice of human Art; rather than than the lies and blinds of a culture that believes that money and material comforts are the reality of life.

Life is reality.

Art is truth.

Money is just a lie propagated by
folks with little to no soul,
heart, or connecting
human spirit in
ART
or
not.

The way of human life as foragers is art of hunting
and art of gathering and art of loving each
other in SHARING socially cooperative
harmonious ways with nature as Art
in a more matriarchal leaning way
of life. Most human
beings sadly escape
this Art of life for now;
but to be reborn in Art
is truly
to
live again
in NOW.


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20 May 2015, 12:18 pm

Fred, I said elsewhere, they cannot allow themselves to hear. It would be a denial of everything there lives stand upon.

I see you developing power in martial arts. I don't know a lot about that about can tell you about painting. All of me has to go to my hand into that brush. I intend to find it again and go beyond what I had before.



aghogday
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20 May 2015, 12:22 pm

Grebels wrote:
Fred, I said elsewhere, they cannot allow themselves to hear. It would be a denial of everything there lives stand upon.

I see you developing power in martial arts. I don't know a lot about that about can tell you about painting. All of me has to go to my hand into that brush. I intend to find it again and go beyond what I had before.


Truly in practice that sounds the same. Creativity of Art comes in many forms. When it comes free without
planning is when I enjoy it most, without instruction or lessons from others, on free practicing
course..:)


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20 May 2015, 5:27 pm

Grebels wrote:
Quote:
I detest the elitist mindset that says if you don't understand art that you never will, and that explanations of art are not only a waste of time but somehow diminish the art.


The artist can be a person who portrays what most people do not see. Also art has its own language. Would you destest a person of another country because you do not speak their language? The language of art is not a secret, except for so much of Renaissance painting. Many of those secrets has simply been lost.

sorry, sir, but something seems to have been lost in translation- my main point was that so many artists seem to have this attitude that if you don't intuitively "get" their art that it is not worth explaining or even talking about it with one who is summarily dismissed as a mere philistine. I have met artists who WERE patient and kind enough to talk about their artistic process and philosophy with onlookers, but they were in a minority.



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20 May 2015, 5:43 pm

auntblabby wrote:
[...] so many artists seem to have this attitude that if you don't intuitively "get" their art that it is not worth explaining or even talking about it with one who is summarily dismissed as a mere philistine. [...]
^This, for truth.

I've had the experience many times that simply walking past a piece of 'art' without stopping or giving a second look was met with criticism by the 'artist' regarding my alleged lack of intelligence and good taste. Some have even questioned the legitimacy of my presence at their exhibitions, even though I've paid the admission fee.

(Note: Fullerton is a nearby college town, and the artsy-fartsy crowd there seems to think that they are the only ones who understand what 'real' art is all about. I go to their shows for the free wines and cheeses, and to occasionally purchase an expressionist landscape piece.)

If you want to insult an 'Artiste', just tell him or her that their 'art' is simply nice, as in: "Yeah, it's nice, but not what I'm looking for." Then stand back and watch their slow-motion meltdown.

:lol:



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21 May 2015, 4:43 am

Ate my text.



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21 May 2015, 5:02 am

To me, art is a hobby and something I'd like to make a career out of, whether it's painting or designing tattoos. I enjoy it and I want a career doing what makes me happy. It's setting your mind free.



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21 May 2015, 5:44 am

auntblabby,
I'm sure you'll enjoy this quote from artstory.com http://www.theartstory.org/artist-rausc ... robert.htm

Preferring to leave the interpretation of the works to his viewers, Rauschenberg allowed chance to determine the placement and combination of the different found images and objects in his artwork such that there were no predetermined arrangements or meanings embedded within the works.

I vaguely recall people asking "What is it". They wanted an abstract painting to represent something. The were told it's a painting. But please allow artists to explore. They feel that all art has been done and coming up with something new is a problem. Please don't bother to ask Damien Hirst what his art means. He gets good artists to copy photos he likes and then paints a dash of red over them. The meaning is the show is a sell out and he makes a lot of money. Hirst himself says there is the world of Art and The Art World. One is all about art and the other all about money.

Much of what I see as commercially successful in the UK these days are abstracted landscapes with attractive colours. The meaning I see is does it go with the wallpaper. However, art is to give sensation. Why does meaning have to be necessary?

In spite of all this I still find so much about art these days which is worthwhile.

Incidentally I count it a privilege to discuss my paintings in a gallery.



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21 May 2015, 7:52 am

Fnord wrote:
Any form of art can become "Art for Cash" if the price is right.

Art is solely the artists' expression of his or her perceptions, filtered through his or her emotions: anger, joy, lust, serenity, financial greed, ... boredom ...


What you describe in the 2nd sentence falls under 'real art'. I'm not saying it has to be visually stunning or what not, just that it can be recognized that there is a meaning (as you mention), that it took effort.

What I was talking about art for cash is that you can take a person who is not an artist, have them splash paint on a canvas at random, take a mop and swirl it in the paint and then let it dry and frame it. Once framed, this and other 'works' like it are then put through a process of media marketing. That marketing puts the 'artists' name out there and this alone generates monetary value for the 'works' . Money is made... if done right, LOTS of money for what is literally a minimal investment in costs.

Effort? not really. Meaning? none. Art? none. It was all a for-cash effort.

My grandmother is 95 years old. Never in her life did she paint or have art classes or anything of the sort. In her free time nowadays she enjoys painting. Now, for someone her age and no previous training, skill or interest in painting, she has been making some really impressive paintings. Not exaggerating, what she paints looks similar to this:

Image


Is she an artist? Not in the sense of the word but she does make art. One that anyone can see required the person sit down and put effort, love and care to make it. It is recognizable across cultures as having all that and meaning.

But this nonsense of painting a tiny black dot on a white canvas and displaying it as 'art' ... or having a 3D printer or a contractor make a cube out of rock or metal for you and displaying it as 'art' (really? a geometric shape?) and it generating value just because people group-think and buy into the media PR/hype that it has meaning and its 'art' ... sorry, that is for-cash art in my book.



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21 May 2015, 8:07 am

Dantac wrote:
[...] What I was talking about art for cash is that you can take a person who is not an artist, have them splash paint on a canvas at random, take a mop and swirl it in the paint and then let it dry and frame it. Once framed, this and other 'works' like it are then put through a process of media marketing. That marketing puts the 'artists' name out there and this alone generates monetary value for the 'works'. Money is made... if done right, LOTS of money for what is literally a minimal investment in costs. Effort? not really. Meaning? none. Art? none. It was all a for-cash effort.

[...]

But this nonsense of painting a tiny black dot on a white canvas and displaying it as 'art' ... or having a 3D printer or a contractor make a cube out of rock or metal for you and displaying it as 'art' (really? a geometric shape?) and it generating value just because people group-think and buy into the media PR/hype that it has meaning and its 'art' ... sorry, that is for-cash art in my book.
Exactly! Being an 'artiste' these days seems to be all about marketing and attitude, with little or no focus on actual talent.

Obviously, your grandmother is not an 'artiste' - she is a real artist. I like the impressionist style, and landscape is my favorite subject matter. Even so-called 'primitive' artists like Grandma Moses had more talent in her little finger than any 'artiste' who relies on media hype and pretense to sell his or her products.



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21 May 2015, 8:15 am

This scene always pops on my mind when that art-for-cash comes up:



The metal cube, the way the 2nd woman describes it, is laced with the group-think value generating talk.



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21 May 2015, 1:48 pm

Dantac wrote:
This scene always pops on my mind when that art-for-cash comes up:


The metal cube, the way the 2nd woman describes it, is laced with the group-think value generating talk.

this illustrates an insufferable haughtiness I've seen all too often. it is a look at the pseudo-sophisticated "adult" methods of people saying to other people [in other words], "I'm smarter than you." it is not even confined to the art world but to culture in general. I could do without the whole deal. why do people have to behave like this?