God doesn't seem to exist!

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Are you saying that simply because some things are poorly understood by many that means that God really exists and we simply aren't able to discern that 'fact'? Your intent isn't clear...

My post is on how those things also aren't detectable through normal means until it happens!

There is no genetic or blood test to identify if you have mental illness let alone most of it has way of diagnosing it until it full manifest it's self, in your body.
Insurance be it government or private, will deny you medical services until you can outright prove you have it.
Doctors won't diagnosis you until you fully have the mental illness and can be diagnosed without a doubt.
This is how people regularly avoid/denied mental illness help, leading to horrible outcome.

All Autism diagnoses are based on physical and social behavior (not physical traits), thus allowing many if not most people go undiagnosed let alone denied help.
There is no genetic or blood test to prove it.
This means again insurance and doctors won't help you and recognize your diagnosis until it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt!


Until both mental health and autism is proven to exist beyond a reasonable doubt, most U.S. states and national governments will continue to refuse to fully fund mental health and autism programs & research.

The same applies to God and religion, just because it lacks physical evidence and cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, doesn't mean God and religion aren't true.
There are plenty of unexplained phenomenons, events, and other stuff that science has been unable to prove including the amount of DNA that is exclusive to humans that isn't present in any other species (this includes modified genes).

All other life shares the same genetic material and just recombines it in different orders.

You are all over the place. Genetics is a relatively new science. We are starting to find genes for mental illness. We are also beginning to find genes involved in autism. As for HPV, we've known it exists for quite some time. Just because religious crazies don't want to vaccinate their daughters doesn't mean it doesn't exist and causes cancer. These are all clearly things which exist. They aren't all fully understood yet. That isn't the case with a hypothetical God. There is no evidence that it exists...

People and governments don't want fund or support anything that cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
There is a good amount if not the majority of people who don't believe that mental health is real, because it hasn't been proven beyond a reasonable doubt!
People still don't believe autism exists, because you cannot physically prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
This is why we can't get mental health and autism funding!
There is no definitive proof confirming or disproving the existence of a god, souls, spirits, future sight, ESP, Ghosts, and other stuff beyond a reasonable doubt.
People still claim they have experienced the stuff listed above.

There is more historical evidences that supports Jesus existed and it is accepted by most historians and anthropologist that Jesus Christ was a real person.
There is proof and bones of the 12 apostles
There is proof and pieces of the True Cross in existences thanks to Byzantine records
The fabled Crown of Thorns are held in Notre Dame in Paris, it was gifted to the church by the French royals for safe keeping.
We also know where most of the holy relics are as well due to Ancient records.
There is enough evidence that supports that Jesus was crucified, where the Church of the Holy Sepulchre is built.
There is proof that Muhammed really did exist along with his wife and children, you can literally trace his bloodline back to him.
There is proof that Buddha existed as they have some of his bones and know of his burial sites.
There is finally proof that King David did exist after years of it being discredited.
Most of the stuff in the Bible has evidence supporting it, including the great flood (it was in the Mediterranean basin and middle east).

A good amount of people even in government and academia still believe that the Ancient Egyptians couldn't have built the great pyrmaids due to the lack of evidences and technology.

A good amount of people refuse to believe that people of the Americas didn't build the pyramids and mounds found in North and South America for many reasons.

A good amount of people believe Atlantis exists to this day.

A good amount of people if not the majority don't believe in Darwin's version of evolution (there is multiple theories of human evolution and creationism), No one has conclusively proven Darwin's theory of human evolution to be correct.

A good many people if not the majority believe the RMS Titanic was purposely sunk by Jews, Jesuits, and/or other people.
They also believe it wasn't sunk by an iceberg or it was purposely driven into the iceberg.

The majority of Americans if not the world believe JFK was assassinated as part of a bigger plot and according to the Warren Commission report.
They also believe JFK was hit by more than one bullet.

Many if not a majority of the world doesn't buy the 9/11 commission's report and believe the U.S. government and others had a hand in it.
The 9/11 commission report is riddled with conjecture, holes, and circumstantial evidence.



My point is you need to prove/disprove something beyond a reasonable doubt in order for it to be accepted as truth.
To this date we haven't proven/disproven God, supernatural stuff, mental health (to the general public and governments), life exists beyond Earth, and most other things beyond a reasonable doubt.

If you held a trial in U.S. federal court over the existence of God, the case would be thrown out due to lack evidence and proof from both sides.
Even if it was given to a jury, it would be hung.

If you asked U.S. jury to decided if mental health stuff is real, you'd most likely get jury to agree it doesn't exist or a hung jury.

If you can prove conclusively whether or not God exists, I'd like to see it (I'm being serous and have seen the evidence on both sides).

You are correct HPV is the number one cause of Genital warts and Cervical cancer!

Yet the majority of the population isn't effected by it and refuse to believe it is an issue that warrants a vaccine and test.
They still have huge doubts or disbelieve stuff about HPV outright.

That might be it, or it might be that the biggest organisation dedicated to autism is a hate group that that only counts non-verbal Kanners Autism as "autism", making it seem that autism is more debilitating than is accurate, and riding the sympathy train all the way to the bank. There is that.

Or it's because science is driven by grants and donations, and more people go into branches of medicine dedicated to areas where money can be made e.g. cancer research or cardiology. More people have lost loved ones to cancer and heart disease than know someone living with autism, or are aware of what autism is to any useful degree. Also, pictures of "little Timmy dying of cancer" are more visceral and provoke more reaction than "little Timmy having a meltdown", hence more attention and more money. That could be a reason.

But no, I'm sure it's all down to people being idiots who think mental unhealth isn't real.




People may very have have experienced all these things. That doesn't mean anything. the human brain is remarkably easy to fool. Any number of substances or states of mind can make you see and experience things that are patently unreal, and you seeing them does not change that. The human memory, for instance, is not like a film you play back in your head, but rather like a play put on by actors you create in your head. It's not all fabricated, but most of the time it didnt happen exactly as you remember it, and it's very easy to influence after the fact. This is why eye witness testimony is the weakest form of evidence.




First of all, the plural of "evidence" is "evidence".

Second, it's true that "Jeshua" probably was a charismatic jewish rabbi in iron age Judea, and that he was probably baptized by a "Yohanan" (John the Baptist), and executed by the Roman prefect Pontius Pilates by means of crucifixion, and sometime between the two he messed up a temple. These are things that are "probably true", though even these things aren't certain. What is certain is that the gospels are internaly inconsistent fantasies that should be entirely discarded as evidence of anything.




Indeed, there are so many bones and bits of wood, and all of them are genuine, from which we can acertain that Jesus led a posse of multi-limbed giants before he was nailed to a 1000-foot cross. Because everything the church says is true, especially things they won't let scientists scrutinize.



Well, a part of it. there are 21 places in total purporting to have the whole or a part of the Crown of Thorns, and if they're all real, then add "while wearing an entire rosebush" to the segment above.




Ancient records of ancient artifacts are evidence of where ancient record-keepers thought ancient artifacts were located.




So what? The alleged Jesus' crucifixion is not the part of the story rational people have a problem with.




You realize that Muhammed lived 600 years after Jesus did, right? it's not strange that his records are more recent and reliable. Even so, him existing does not prove that his flying horse did.




You realize Buddha is a title and not a person, right? No, of course you don't. The person usually meant by "the Buddha" is Siddharta Gautama, who was allagedly cremated and his ashes enshrined all over the place. That being the case, can you tell Buddha-ash from non-enlightened ash? Aside from ashes, there are 6 teeth in various shrines across Asia. None of this proves that he ascended to a higher level of consciousness, or that he magically bypassed his mothers vagina.




What are you talking about? The city of David has been known about since the 1800s, and there are few mentions of the "house of David" on old stone slabs. Might be evidence that there was a king whose name was similar to "David" (jewish names and all that). That's not proof that he killed a giant or that he led a jewish army larger than the regions entire population at the time on a genocidal rampage against everyone who wasn't jewish.




The bible is wrong about pretty much every testable claim that it makes, and the few things it's not entirely wrong about it blows so far out of proportion that it might as well be considered a lie.

As for the flood, make up your mind. "A flood" is not special, they happen all the time in some parts of the world. "A global flood to wipe out all humans except Noah's family" is a tad more unusual, and a regional flood in the Mediterranean basin won't cut it.



"A good amount of people" are idiots.



There are no "theories of creationism". Nothing creationists proposes reaches the level of theory. They rely on unwarranted assumptions and assumed conclusions, making logical longjumps to arrive at their favourite fairy tale, whereupon special pleading paints that as the "only reasonable explanation", whereuopon all scrutiny stops.

And why do people fixate on "Darwins version of evolution". Is it perhaps that you know we have come a long way since then, and you instead want to attempt to disprove a theory from 1871? The theory of Evolution wasn't comeplete until it was united with Mendelian genetics in the 1930s and 40s, providing a mechanism for the "descent with inherited modifications" that Darwin observed. And the resulting theory is today better understood and utilized across multiple scientific fields, and is more accurate in the predicitons it provides than is, say, the "Theory of Gravity"



Then it falls on them to explain how that was planned. If the RMS Titanic had rammed straight into the iceberg, it would have stopped, but remained afloat. Instead, it tried to swerve to avoid the iceberg, not quite making it and tearing a long gash in the side, bypassing several of the waterproofed compartments that were supposed to make the ship unsinkable, and dooming the ship. Are Jesuits such masterminds that they can plan a trap that relies on the ship trying to dodge, and not quite making it? Do Jews control icebergs? Are they all secretly waterbenders?



Has been disproven. The shot has been recreated to within an inch of actual outcome.



Just as the world is riddled with conspiracy theorists who will never stop spouting their favourite paranoid fantasies. Even if said report is full of inconsistencies, there are plenty of things they could be covering up other than "the US Government plotted with Saudi militant muslims hiding in Afghanistan in order to invade...Iraq."




And as long as you can pretend that your doubt is reasonable, you get to also pretend that the two sides have equal merit, right? Take for instance life on other planets; we know life exists on this planet. We also know that there is an immense number of planets out in space. By inference, we can therefore say that the proposition that life could exist on planets other than earth is not an unreasonable one. This is already more evidence than exists on the side of those proposing the supernatural.




In a court operating on the principle of "Innocent until proven guilty", or, more succinct, "no until proven yes", I'm thinking the pro-God corner would have an uphill battle. Because, again, a negative cannot be proven with positive evidence.

Now, with a biased court, it might be possible. But seeing as the Kitzmiller v. Dover case was precided over by a fundamentalist Christian judge, and it was still ruled in favour of the actual evidence, I'm catiously hopeful.




I'd certainly like to hang the jury who managed to agree to that.




You very blatantly have not, and you're still asking the question as though both sides had equal merit. There is no burden on the side that rejects a claim supported by no evidence to produce evidence supporting their rejection. Having no reason to believe a claim to be true is ample reason to not believe said claim to be true.

Wolfram, I don't think that philosophers and the spiritual have real grounds for a meeting in terms of proof. As for science I fail to see the connection. However, do answer me if I did offer definite proof of God's existence and relevance to you, what difference would it make? Reverse the question if you wish. My faith stands of something far different from logic. Please don't think it is arrogance when people with faith say that have a knowing. It is not easy to explain spiritual things, they are far best experienced. Also, please forgive me for thinking that the unbelievers thinking is not entirely based on logic.

If there were any real proof of god, it would make all the difference. We'd just know, rather than questioning. Also, it isn't up to atheists to prove that god does not exist. It's up to christians to prove that he does exist. You make the claim, you state your case, you prove your point.. Not the other way around.

I just question what sort of a good, loving god, would create people who are skeptical by nature, and tell them that the requirements for avoiding eternal damnation, are that we must believe in that which we cannot see. Most have told me that they believe that everyone has a choice. They don't. You can't simply choose to believe something, without proof.

While I might not have proof that there is no god. I do know that this is not an act of love. It's violent, torturous, threatening, and unforgiving.

JakJak, its hard to answer you without knowing a bit about your background. As it is I have to guess and concede you a few points. Now tell me if you saw a beautiful girl and some instinct told you this was the one wouldn't you think this was all the proof you needed. With spiritual things I saw something beautiful. I am sorry you do not see.

What would change if God was real and the Bible was the unalterable word of God? Aside from the fact that any entity with the properties of omniscience and omnipotence is logically impossible? (I'm assuming it's Christianity you are both proposing). Assuming God's word overrides human observation, the following follows:

Pi = 3, so mathematics is dead.
Bats are birds, so taxonomy is out.
Genocide is moral.
Slavery is allowed.
Zombies are real.
Demons exist.
The solar system is geocentric.
Even if the most powerful being in the universe supports your cause, you're f****d if the enemy has iron chariots.
You can be convicted of thoughtcrime.
If you are convicted of thoughtcrime, you recieve an infinite punishment for a finite crime.

You say you don't understand where science enters into it. "Science" literally translates into "Knowledge". You talk of knowing, then you ask why I would want to apply the only useful tool we have for determining what is actually knowledge?

It is an arrogance when you say you have a knowing; you are saying that your personal, subjective experience, which I do not deny that you have, overides what can be objectively determined by independent individuals who are not you. You are saying that your perspective is more valid than theirs, and if they would only partake in the mental masturbation that you engage in, they would "realize" it. A paranoid person might subjectively experience that everyone is out to get them. This does not turn the entire rest of the world into conspirators.


As for being based on logic, no, I also employ reason, observation, critical thinking and other tools the faithful are either incapable of or prohibited from applying.



Translation: "I can't counter your facts, and I don't know you enough to pin your atheism on some childhood trauma, but I'm going to assume that you are an emotionally dead nihilist, incapable of appreciating beauty."

A politely worded ad Hominem is still an ad Hominem.

Woo-peddlers such as yourself do not have a monopoly on appreaciating beauty, being moved by music or poetry, or in any way experiencing emotion.

Ah, you've already answered your question by the art of the human that creates reality rather than being ruled by the order of science, in systemizing scientific method that attempts to make a human being that is art in nature, logic instead, by this tool of science.

That's already failed. The little bitty scientific method is good at observing the same things over and over again. But that my friend is the very definition of human being based insanity, per the words of Einstein.

Einstein is not only a scientific method based scientist. Einstein is genius AND ARTIST, as he readily admits that creating new stuff is impossible without HUMAN imagination that is certainly NOT bound by the little bitty scientific method; that is good at measuring stuff and repeating measurable STUFF.

The human mind and body in balance in ways of imagination and creativity in greater physical intelligence, incorporating the emotions and regulating them along with integrating senses that do exist in the corporeal body are real. There is no 'logical' reason to believe that human soul is any more than a balance of mind and body that feels nuanced emotions as heArt fully; and has the much fuller ability to fully express emotions and senses through Spirit to connect to other human beings and the rest of nature.

This is all flowery talk; sure; but you see, humans are all flowery communicating social animals; when properly mind and body balancing; feeling a full range of emotions and senses, without repressing some emotions through the emotion of fear; and fully letting go, and flowing, just like that Ice Princess from 'Frozen'; letting go all the negative con-social emotions; and connecting in flow of spirit as emotions and senses in all arts of expression from verbal language, non verbal language, and internal nuanced emotions and senses with the rest of humans and nature aka as the interdependently connecting relationship FORCE of all EXISTENCE, both animate and inanimate;
and to be clear inanimate is only a relative term, as even in rocks,
electrons are spinning around nucleuses same as human being.

The bottom line is GOD exists now. The three letter term God is just an abstract construct. To understand God is to define God properly. God is the Interdependent relationship of all stuff seen and unseen that is connecting force as yes, as Ana says, energy. Energy takes many forms but the bottom line is there is action and consequence.

God is action and consequence in terms of force.

Some people house God in little bitty words, and anthropomorphic ways of thinking.

Other people see the big picture God like the Gnostic Jesus in the Gospel of Thomas, not included
in the so-called bible that clearly states that the force of God is within us, just naked, without
systemizing science ordered clothes of culture and God is outside of us, above so below, and
all around us. I mean duh, God is everything seen and unseen now. Jesus cannot get folks
to believe it 2K years ago; and it makes too much frigging common sense for either
Militant Atheists or Fundamentalist Christians to get this simple frigging truth that
is frigging clear as noses of faces, lips of mouth,
tips of penises, and
'flowering' vaginas.

Yeah, the 'real Jesus dude' seeks human potential, not fairly tales and lies to
control other folks through fear for materialistic gains, and to control
reproductive freedoms for some illusion of selfish gene gain when
we all share the same basic DNA, and human potential, overall.

How any scientist doesn't understand this is really simple;
Ego, and being little bitty nerds as kids where the
athletic boys with mind and body balance
who get all the girls put 'em in
their little bitty all natural
animal weak
places.

The truth is in Nature about GOD.
Just look around; God is in you,
outside of you; above so below;
and all around you, and me too.

If you strip naked and spend
40 days in the desert
with scorpions and
lizards; the tough
unconditional love
of that reality becomes
impossible to not see;
no matter what
abstract term
one uses
for
the
SEVEN LETTER
WORD THAT IS
NATURE AKA GOD.

God is more like
Godzilla; let's face
facts; God is one
tough M F;
NOT A VIRGIN
CHILD and
yeah in
the case
of humans God
is Love too;
What a
magical
Gift Love can be
as Love creates
as beautiful
manifestation
of child of Godzilla.

Humans are 'miracles'; created
from star dust; to paraphrase
Carl Sagan; generously, I will add.

And God is more like Jack Nicholson
in the metaphor of this short video
clip if you can stretch your God given
gift of imagination far enough to see it.
Creativity is a 'muscle'; just like the 'guns'
of my legs that leg press 930LBS, 14 times,
with hands raised over my head like no
other human can on YouTube.
Use or lose it baby; as in
all stuff
created as
GOD.

I create 11K word free verse epic
poetry in one day; cause
the muscle of my
creativity is
much
stronger
than my legs.

And no one does
it like me baby;
as I understand
what GOD
is and use
it to my
every advantage.
'Godzilla' will be
proud of me if
'he' can
talk.

And who kNOWs,
maybe 'he'
does...

In some
'small'
ways....

And in closing, thanks again,
'Aspieotaku' for another
brilliant thread idea..

One can't see sub-atomic particles----yet, scientists tell us they exist.

What about love? One can't "see" love----one can't touch it, with their hands----yet, people say they have experienced it.

For ME, the existence of trees, stars, insects, etc., etc., etc., is proof-enough, that God exists!

Here we go again...

Nothing unseen exists unless you believe in it.

Well.. like 'i' said;
'you' cannot fathom
the responsibility 'i' have..


Obviously.