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Lintar
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02 Jun 2015, 1:47 am

God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?



Breaking Enigma
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02 Jun 2015, 2:05 am

I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.

Think about it. How often do people cry out to God when life is going perfectly? How often do people thank God for the joys of this life? It's not when life is perfect that people seek and find God; it's when life is hard. When life is hard, when their is tragedy, sadness, and despair, that's when people find God and are uplifted in faith. If we lived in a utopia on earth, people would be content with this life, this world, and not look to the enternal life in Christ Jesus to come. God would be phased out, for he wouldn't be needed.



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02 Jun 2015, 7:54 am

Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.
Yes... and if you consider the excuses they offer it boils down to little more than "if God exists He would do things MY way"... or, more particularly, "He would do what I tell Him".

Perhaps even more irrationally, they claim for themselves a complete and total autonomy where what is good and true is judged according to their own personal, social, political convenience and ambition; quite ignoring that everyone else would have the same autonomy to indulge their own ambitions... resulting in a real competition (survival of the fittest) where the "fittest" would be the meanest, cruellest, cunningest dominator.
Lintar wrote:
God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.



pcuser
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02 Jun 2015, 9:28 am

Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.

Think about it. How often do people cry out to God when life is going perfectly? How often do people thank God for the joys of this life? It's not when life is perfect that people seek and find God; it's when life is hard. When life is hard, when their is tragedy, sadness, and despair, that's when people find God and are uplifted in faith. If we lived in a utopia on earth, people would be content with this life, this world, and not look to the enternal life in Christ Jesus to come. God would be phased out, for he wouldn't be needed.

Few are invoking God when they say that. Religion has been around so long, parts of it have become common language. So, saying God during times of frustration is simply a figure of speech, not an affirmation of a God's existence. Religion is a fairy tale created by bronze age herders in a superstitious time...



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02 Jun 2015, 9:32 am

Oldavid wrote:
Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.
Yes... and if you consider the excuses they offer it boils down to little more than "if God exists He would do things MY way"... or, more particularly, "He would do what I tell Him".

Perhaps even more irrationally, they claim for themselves a complete and total autonomy where what is good and true is judged according to their own personal, social, political convenience and ambition; quite ignoring that everyone else would have the same autonomy to indulge their own ambitions... resulting in a real competition (survival of the fittest) where the "fittest" would be the meanest, cruellest, cunningest dominator.
Lintar wrote:
God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.

We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...



aghogday
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02 Jun 2015, 10:13 am

pcuser wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.
Yes... and if you consider the excuses they offer it boils down to little more than "if God exists He would do things MY way"... or, more particularly, "He would do what I tell Him".

Perhaps even more irrationally, they claim for themselves a complete and total autonomy where what is good and true is judged according to their own personal, social, political convenience and ambition; quite ignoring that everyone else would have the same autonomy to indulge their own ambitions... resulting in a real competition (survival of the fittest) where the "fittest" would be the meanest, cruellest, cunningest dominator.
Lintar wrote:
God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.

We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...


What a 'strange statement':

Quote:

'We atheists don't claim
anything except that the burden of proof
is on you as you are making extraordinary claims.'

So, you can speak for ALL Atheists now.

You must be omnipresent to do that; huh..;)

Folks who name themselves Atheists are
as diverse, more or less, than anyone else
who names themselves Atheists, so,
the 'ONLY PERSON'
'you' speak for here is
'YOURSELF', and
some others,
perhaps, in making
that statement.

BUT YAH, "that's" an 'Autistic thingy';
to RIGIDLY 'think' that everyone frigging
thinks the same or there
is only one
frigging definition
of GOD; That's 'absurd';
truly it is in the MUCH
BIGGER WORLD OF HUMANS.

And you know what; it's not just
an 'Autistic thingy' or an 'Atheist
thingy', it's also a 'Conservative
Christian thingy'; AND 'Conservative
Closed-Mind Thingy', in general;
as opposed to a more
'Liberal Open-Mind Thingy;

YES,
Fundamentalist Christians,
Atheists, Introverted Autistics,
Introverts in general, Conservative
Republicans; have this closed minded
thingy in common, in general, and of
course as in ALL 'OPEN MINDED STUFF'
EXCEPTIONS do apply. To attempt
to put chains on human beings
or GOD is typical
of 'closed-minded
ways' of human
being.

It's a general trait of human
being, assessed as such,
in the following
TED video:



So there will most likely
continue to be more
'closed-minded oriented
folks' who are Conservative
Republicans, Introverted Autistics,
Fundamentalist Religious folks;
Introverts in general, and yes
Atheists too; and 'us

open-minded oriented folks'
who are Liberal will just have
to 'scratch our heads',
and put up with 'them';
until classic evolution
changes this, which
is entirely unlikely,
as even in the
animal Kingdom
approximately
20% of animals
are assessed as
SITTERS INSTEAD
OF ROVERS LIKE ME..;)

from birth.

Smiles..:)

The world and GOD is
a big place for 'Super Rovers'
like me; and God makes
'Super Sitters' too, so
I LOVE them
Unconditionally
too witH TOUGH
Love of course..;)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/opinion/sunday/26shyness.html?_r=0


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pcuser
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02 Jun 2015, 10:20 am

aghogday wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.
Yes... and if you consider the excuses they offer it boils down to little more than "if God exists He would do things MY way"... or, more particularly, "He would do what I tell Him".

Perhaps even more irrationally, they claim for themselves a complete and total autonomy where what is good and true is judged according to their own personal, social, political convenience and ambition; quite ignoring that everyone else would have the same autonomy to indulge their own ambitions... resulting in a real competition (survival of the fittest) where the "fittest" would be the meanest, cruellest, cunningest dominator.
Lintar wrote:
God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.

We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...


What a 'strange statement':

Quote:

'We atheists don't claim
anything except that the burden of proof
is on you as you are making extraordinary claims.'

So, you can speak for ALL Atheists now.

You must be omnipresent to do that; huh..;)

Folks who name themselves Atheists are
as diverse, more or less, than anyone else
who names themselves Atheists, so,
the 'ONLY PERSON'
'you' speak for here is
'YOURSELF', and
some others,
perhaps, in making
that statement.

BUT YAH, "that's" an 'Autistic thingy';
to RIGIDLY 'think' that everyone frigging
thinks the same or there
is only one
frigging definition
of GOD; That's 'absurd';
truly it is in the MUCH
BIGGER WORLD OF HUMANS.

And you know what; it's not just
an 'Autistic thingy' or an 'Atheist
thingy', it's also a 'Conservative
Christian thingy'; AND 'Conservative
Closed-Mind Thingy', in general;
as opposed to a more
'Liberal Open-Mind Thingy;

YES,
Fundamentalist Christians,
Atheists, Introverted Autistics,
Introverts in general, Conservative
Republicans; have this closed minded
thingy in common, in general, and of
course as in ALL 'OPEN MINDED STUFF'
EXCEPTIONS do apply. To attempt
to put chains on human beings
or GOD is typical
of 'closed-minded
ways' of human
being.

It's a general trait of human
being, assessed as such,
in the following
TED video:



So there will most likely
continue to be more
'closed-minded oriented
folks' who are Conservative
Republicans, Introverted Autistics,
Fundamentalist Religious folks;
Introverts in general, and yes
Atheists too; and 'us

open-minded oriented folks'
who are Liberal will just have
to 'scratch our heads',
and put up with 'them';
until classic evolution
changes this, which
is entirely unlikely,
as even in the
animal Kingdom
approximately
20% of animals
are assessed as
SITTERS INSTEAD
OF ROVERS LIKE ME..;)

from birth.

Smiles..:)

The world and GOD is
a big place for 'Super Rovers'
like me; and God makes
'Super Sitters' too, so
I LOVE them
Unconditionally
too witH TOUGH
Love of course..;)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/opinion/sunday/26shyness.html?_r=0

Post all you want. I still won't read it. I'll ignore your drivel...



aghogday
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02 Jun 2015, 10:35 am

pcuser wrote:
aghogday wrote:
pcuser wrote:
Oldavid wrote:
Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.
Yes... and if you consider the excuses they offer it boils down to little more than "if God exists He would do things MY way"... or, more particularly, "He would do what I tell Him".

Perhaps even more irrationally, they claim for themselves a complete and total autonomy where what is good and true is judged according to their own personal, social, political convenience and ambition; quite ignoring that everyone else would have the same autonomy to indulge their own ambitions... resulting in a real competition (survival of the fittest) where the "fittest" would be the meanest, cruellest, cunningest dominator.
Lintar wrote:
God doesn't SEEM to exist? The last time I checked, the person who started this particular thread seemed to think that those of us who even entertain the notion as a vague possibility are deluded and in need of correction (by him, of course).

No, I disagree with this premise (if I can even call it that). It seems to me that God DOES exist, but of course one must first carefully define, or at least give a pretty basic outline, of what it one has in mind when one uses the word 'God'.

So - why do you here claim that 'God doesn't seem to exist'? What do you mean by 'God'?
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.

We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...


What a 'strange statement':

Quote:

'We atheists don't claim
anything except that the burden of proof
is on you as you are making extraordinary claims.'

So, you can speak for ALL Atheists now.

You must be omnipresent to do that; huh..;)

Folks who name themselves Atheists are
as diverse, more or less, than anyone else
who names themselves Atheists, so,
the 'ONLY PERSON'
'you' speak for here is
'YOURSELF', and
some others,
perhaps, in making
that statement.

BUT YAH, "that's" an 'Autistic thingy';
to RIGIDLY 'think' that everyone frigging
thinks the same or there
is only one
frigging definition
of GOD; That's 'absurd';
truly it is in the MUCH
BIGGER WORLD OF HUMANS.

And you know what; it's not just
an 'Autistic thingy' or an 'Atheist
thingy', it's also a 'Conservative
Christian thingy'; AND 'Conservative
Closed-Mind Thingy', in general;
as opposed to a more
'Liberal Open-Mind Thingy;

YES,
Fundamentalist Christians,
Atheists, Introverted Autistics,
Introverts in general, Conservative
Republicans; have this closed minded
thingy in common, in general, and of
course as in ALL 'OPEN MINDED STUFF'
EXCEPTIONS do apply. To attempt
to put chains on human beings
or GOD is typical
of 'closed-minded
ways' of human
being.

It's a general trait of human
being, assessed as such,
in the following
TED video:



So there will most likely
continue to be more
'closed-minded oriented
folks' who are Conservative
Republicans, Introverted Autistics,
Fundamentalist Religious folks;
Introverts in general, and yes
Atheists too; and 'us

open-minded oriented folks'
who are Liberal will just have
to 'scratch our heads',
and put up with 'them';
until classic evolution
changes this, which
is entirely unlikely,
as even in the
animal Kingdom
approximately
20% of animals
are assessed as
SITTERS INSTEAD
OF ROVERS LIKE ME..;)

from birth.

Smiles..:)

The world and GOD is
a big place for 'Super Rovers'
like me; and God makes
'Super Sitters' too, so
I LOVE them
Unconditionally
too witH TOUGH
Love of course..;)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/26/opinion/sunday/26shyness.html?_r=0

Post all you want. I still won't read it. I'll ignore your drivel...


That's par for the 'sitter's course, friend. I speak to the reading audience
and rarely expect 'the inspiration' to read or listen, in terms of 'dark'.

I read everything as a 'super rover'; but of course my Hyperlexic
form of Autism in reading 10 to 15 times faster than the
average human being, along with being able to interpret
almost anything anyone says with ease, is part
of my 'Super Rover Autistic Power', friend.

And my totally non-judgmental PERSONAL
attitude towards all others, dark and
light, makes me into what some folks,
at least, name CREATIVE GENIUS;
YES, links and quotes available
on request, to PROVE THAT AS WELL.

You are easy to predict, for me at least;
and trust me OR NOT; I predict
much more complex stuff than
you friend; but it is what it is
in evolutionary terms
and epigenetics,
as well or
NOT.

HAVE a great now.

It's what I always do,
as it's easy for me
to understand
ALL OF WHAT'S
GOING ON; AT
least most of it;
that really counts
in flesh and blood LIFE.


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aghogday
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02 Jun 2015, 10:42 am

^^^

Addendum:

And by the way, I do appreciate your new found
ability to scroll past my words in comfort.

Kudos to that friend, and CHEERS!

to

HUMAN FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION..:)


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Oldavid
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02 Jun 2015, 4:34 pm

pcuser wrote:
We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...
So far, I've not made any real positive claims... I've been preoccupied with showing that your claims (assumptions) are physically impossible and logically absurd. The way that physics exists and manifests itself (to an honest, intelligent observer) is in the laws of nature... which steadfastly refuse to conform themselves to your extraordinary claims.

Your assumption that everything created itself for no reason is absurd. A thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist. That includes any kind of order... even the order that manifests itself as matter and energy.



pcuser
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02 Jun 2015, 5:25 pm

Oldavid wrote:
pcuser wrote:
We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...
So far, I've not made any real positive claims... I've been preoccupied with showing that your claims (assumptions) are physically impossible and logically absurd. The way that physics exists and manifests itself (to an honest, intelligent observer) is in the laws of nature... which steadfastly refuse to conform themselves to your extraordinary claims.

Your assumption that everything created itself for no reason is absurd. A thing that does not exist cannot cause itself to exist. That includes any kind of order... even the order that manifests itself as matter and energy.

Virtual particles pop in and out of existence all the time just for the hell of it...



aghogday
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02 Jun 2015, 6:27 pm

^^^
True; even i do it..;)

It takes practice...

Lots and Lots of practice....


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02 Jun 2015, 10:44 pm

pcuser wrote:
We atheists don't claim anything except that the burden of proof is on you as you are making extraordinary claims. We don't need to pretend that if it was real, it would do it my way. There is no my or your way for physics to exist and manifest itself...


Well, actually you do. I know that it is often claimed by self-styled atheists that since they don't believe in God they have nothing to demonstrate, no evidence or justification required for what they term an absence of belief, but if they were truly honest with themselves they would recognise the fact that they actually believe that God doesn't exist (which, of course, is not quite the same thing).

A pure absence of belief isn't atheism - it's agnosticism. One reserves judgement when one does not have enough information to make a committment to a particular point of view. When one commits to a particular point of view one has to then justify it, and this applies to both theists and atheists precisely because they have intellectual postions they spend time defending, both on and off-line.

As for 'extraordinary claims', well, so what? What, exactly, is an extraordinary claim anyway? By whose standard can one categorise something as being 'extraordinary'? What may be extraordinary to me may not be to you. It's purely relative and, therefore, utterly useless as a guide to determining what is actually true.



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02 Jun 2015, 10:52 pm

^^^

Intelligent reply.

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Lintar
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02 Jun 2015, 10:59 pm

Breaking Enigma wrote:
I often see and hear people say they disbelieve in God because of all of the evil in the world. But God, by allowing free will and evil, is a genius, naturally.

Think about it. How often do people cry out to God when life is going perfectly? How often do people thank God for the joys of this life? It's not when life is perfect that people seek and find God; it's when life is hard. When life is hard, when their is tragedy, sadness, and despair, that's when people find God and are uplifted in faith. If we lived in a utopia on earth, people would be content with this life, this world, and not look to the enternal life in Christ Jesus to come. God would be phased out, for he wouldn't be needed.


Good point! :) I think it was the adventurer Bear Grylls who observed that he had never encountered someone who did not pray when they knew their life was in real danger of coming to a swift end, and it has been said by others that passengers aboard an aircraft will instinctively pray when they know there is only a slight possibility they will survive a crash. I have yet to hear about an atheist telling others on a doomed flight something like, "Why are you on your knees praying? Don't you know that, due to the laws of physics, we are doomed, that our lives are pre-determined, there is nothing we can do about it, and that when we die we will disappear into oblivion, but don't worry, because we were lucky - everything is due to luck, by the way - to be fortunate enough to have lived our pitifully short lives here in the only reality we know of... and so on, and so forth". It just doesn't happen - ever.

In any case, the existence of evil argument is only useful for arguing against the existence of a benevolent God. "He" may actually be malevolent, or completely indifferent. Why not? Are there any solid arguments against a God that doesn't really care about us at all?



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02 Jun 2015, 11:08 pm

Oldavid wrote:
Sharp as ever, Lintar. Welcome back.


Why, thank you kindly :)

These debates about God are, if nothing else, both illuminating and entertaining, even though we often cover ground that has been covered countless times before.