So most of you folks are atheist/agnostic/anti theist?

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I am a ..........
theist 32%  32%  [ 18 ]
atheist 32%  32%  [ 18 ]
agnostic 29%  29%  [ 16 ]
anti theist 7%  7%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 56

JT_B_Goode
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26 May 2015, 4:59 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
You believe in a god, ergo you are a theist in the broadest sense of the world. If you think that it is appropriate to describe the whole of nature as a god, then, unless you think the material world does not exist, you are not an atheist.

That's actually kind of offensive.
I revere the inherent order of the universe and express it by learning about the natural sciences, but I don't consider the universe to be a conscious being. Naturalistic pantheism rejects belief in metaphysics or the supernatural, so atheism and agnosticism are the norm.
Wikipedia wrote:
Some members view themselves as atheists, while others hold agnostic stances. Some members use theistic vocabulary, however they do not believe in a thinking creator god, and simply use the word "God" to describe their feelings of reverence towards Nature and the wider Universe.

I'll just vote anti-theist to express my disdain for the conflation.



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28 May 2015, 4:36 pm

I'm an Agnostic Atheist (since birth) and whilst I believe there may some sort of undermined connection between ASD's and non-theistic belief systems, I differ from most of them due to my staunch anti-collectivist and non-"progressive" views.


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28 May 2015, 5:10 pm

Panentheist, slightly different than pantheist but overall cosmology is similar relative to addressing what's experienced.

Also didn't vote because it wasn't offered.


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29 May 2015, 5:05 am

Damn your limited choices: Agnostic-Pantheist-ish

Bah, who am I kidding, everything is actually due to Aliens !

Image


Therefore let's change my decision to Agnostic-Alienologist

(I could go on to say that the Aliens were themselves generated by some kind of Quantum-Flux Artificial-Intelligence, amongst other details, but I'll just stop at Aliens for now)

Image


I don't think most humans are ready for an inter-galactic civilisation with aliens or A.I. or cyborgs or androids though, largely due to a lack of understanding of how to interact even with each other (e.g.: humans war & fight against each other & are still often even "racist" amongst their very own species), and also a lack of "spiritual-development/spiritual-evolution" amongst themselves, and so humans could probably be expected to pick up rocks & throw stones at aliens/androids/cyborns just because they're "different" than the humans.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." -Jesus (although now he's actually reincarnated as a guy named Terence)


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29 May 2015, 9:35 am

heavenlyabyss wrote:
Why are you here on this this earth? If not god, then why?

There is probably no ultimate why. There are lots of small ones - your parents, grandparents, great-grandparents, first apes out of the trees, first fish out of the sea, first self-replicating nucleic acid, first star, the Big Bang - but no "purpose". Efficient causes, but no final cause.
JT_B_Goode wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
You believe in a god, ergo you are a theist in the broadest sense of the world. If you think that it is appropriate to describe the whole of nature as a god, then, unless you think the material world does not exist, you are not an atheist.

That's actually kind of offensive.
I revere the inherent order of the universe and express it by learning about the natural sciences, but I don't consider the universe to be a conscious being. Naturalistic pantheism rejects belief in metaphysics or the supernatural, so atheism and agnosticism are the norm.
Wikipedia wrote:
Some members view themselves as atheists, while others hold agnostic stances. Some members use theistic vocabulary, however they do not believe in a thinking creator god, and simply use the word "God" to describe their feelings of reverence towards Nature and the wider Universe.

I'll just vote anti-theist to express my disdain for the conflation.
Apologies, was mostly responding to Fnord and didn't keep track of who made which post.

Point stands: either you feel it is appropriate to describe nature as a god (in which case you are a theist, assuming you believe nature exists), or you are using a metaphor, actually don't believe in a god and are covered by the term "atheist".



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29 May 2015, 10:38 am

I'm more of an "I-theist".

I decide my morals and values. I can change them as my world view changes. I define my successes and failures. I and I alone am responsible for my decisions, actions, and their rewards or consequences.



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29 May 2015, 1:27 pm

Just as note, Boston University has already down a comprehensive peer reviewed study on this very forum, in the 'hay day' of the Strident WP Atheist days of Wrong Planet, where spiritual leaning folks are constantly ridiculed for their belief in a gang-up effort by anti-spiritual, material reductionist bullies. Even then, the Boston University study shows that in analyzing the actual posts here, in PPR, overall, instead of just a few opinion threads; only 26% percent of folks here assess and express themselves as actual Atheists.

http://csjarchive.cogsci.rpi.edu/proceedings/2011/papers/0782/paper0782.pdf

The issue with higher functioning spiritual leaning folks on the Autism Spectrum is they develop their own sets of spiritual beliefs often not controlled by one religious ideology. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that as each human being views the Universe uniquely in relationship to issues with existential intelligence. And yes, existential intelligence is a very import aspect of human intelligence to feel secure in one's very existence on a now to now basis.

My ideas of GOD are 100% secure in nature; there is proof of GOD in all that is to me with absolutely no doubt.

But here's the thing, I see much further in life than most people do, as a result of many challenges in life that most folks have not faced. When I describe my ideas about philosophy and GOD the folks who see it as gibberish or garbage have simply not been to the places, I for one, have been in, in life in both physical illness and the joy of 54 years of paths in life leading down many roads in real flesh and blood life out of a world of electronic devices, as well as in them too.

Chances are without the intimidating environment for folks with out of the box spiritual ideas, if the Boston University study is done here again; the percentage of atheists will be the similar or less than the so-called NT online control group at 17%.

And true, the percentages of Christians are rather low; but it doesn't take much intelligence to see through the myths of the OT and the NT of the traditional revised bibles.

But here's the thing that is the most important part of that. Folks follow truly insane myths and ideologies for the truly sane reason for social acceptance, for basic subsistence and social survival.

And no matter how silly the ideologies are; survival is what counts for any social animal at the end of the day.

And even if it is female genital mutilation that is the social norm for both self-esteem and religious ideology in some countries; the alternative of not participating in the NORM of social cooperation can mean DEATH, IN EVENTUAL POTENTIAL.

Many folks on the Autism Spectrum who already have trouble with reciprocal social communication are outcasts by the time they hit the church pews, knowing what's going on; so there is not much to lose from seeing deeper truths; escaping church as an outcast already; and finding one's own path to what one calls and defines GOD, in unique ways.

And that is a great advantage in being an outcast.

As I for one can dance naked in front of the entire world; on adult restricted nude art blog; all legal of course.

And feel absolutely no shame; 'cause human sensuality aka LUST, is a scientifically all GOD of Nature given proven core of both human creativity and productivity, so I use that to my advantage as a muse both to me and a few other female poets and dancers in the real world, to ENHANCE MY CREATIVITY, big time; AND YES, my wife goes along with it, sort of..;)

And yes, the evidence of that follows me everywhere I go, in terms of
creativity and productivity, for those with 'eyes' deep enough and
patient enough to see the full extent of what I do, numbering
around 1.1 million now, on just my Google Plus page for ART.

The outcast as always, can and does win in the END, AND sometimes
always now, in the real kingdom of heaven, as just another mind
and body balanced creature of GOD. I live wild and free
and many others who follow the social norm, afraid
of not being accepted
live in either
a systemized
prison of culture
or their own ready
made hell of 'robot life';
following the rules and
never moving out of the box
for all the joy that can be possible
in Loving Life
as it
is
for
NOW..:)

That's truly sad to me; but with human
potential and the real science of
epigenetics and neuroplasticity;
all natural human miracles
in essence can and will
come true for those
who gain 'deeper
'eyes in minds
and bodies in balance;
adapting to enough challenge;
even if one must make that challenge
for themselves in imagination and creativity
to make the words so let it be written so let it
be done become:
FLESH AND BLOOD REALITY; YES, WE CAN AND DO
CREATE OUR OWN REALITIES, when we get integrated
as what we are evolved to be in mind and body balance.

And that is a simple truth of how to get to 'THE HEAVEN OF NOW..:)

But yes, it takes sweat and sometimes even blood; and a real continuous
practice of the joy of THAT
'Great Work', wHere
perfection is the
practice and NOT
the
goal.


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30 May 2015, 5:46 pm

Agnostic Atheist. The case for God has not been vindicated, and can therefore be discarded. No assertion of its nonexistance needed.

Also, pantheism should really be grouped closer to agnosticism and atheism than to theism. Even if you believe there is some vague divine spark behind all of it, the pantheist would have to concede that nature does not answer prayers, take sides in human affairs, or suspend the rules of the natural world for anyones benefit. A god that is everything is a god that is nowhere.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I simply ask the question what is a god? Then if I get a definition of god I will decide whether I agree with that definition.


Here's where it gets fun; many people making the case for God want to define their particular concept of the (usually) christian God as a more "reasonable" one by stripping away the attributes attributed to him one by one. Physical form? No, he's more of an invisible entity who is everywhere at once. Answers prayers? Only at a rate indistinguishable from random chance, of course! Interferes in human happenings? Yes, in ways that are noticable only if you already believe, and will to all others look like a non-intervention from a god that might as well not exist at all.

That, and the bible does specify that God is a human-shaped entitity with a face (albeit one that causes death to mortals) who takes strolls in gardens, shows his back to Moses and punches Jacob in the balls rather than lose a wrestling match.

However, if the word "God" is to mean anything, it must be applicable to all things that we call gods. Everyone agrees that Thor is a god. Everyone agrees that Zeus is a god. Same with Vishnu. Same with Krishna. So, also, with Yahweh. So, what do all these characters have in common? They have magical powers, they are anthropomorphic, and they are in some sense, immortal.


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30 May 2015, 10:42 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
Agnostic Atheist. The case for God has not been vindicated, and can therefore be discarded. No assertion of its nonexistance needed.

Also, pantheism should really be grouped closer to agnosticism and atheism than to theism. Even if you believe there is some vague divine spark behind all of it, the pantheist would have to concede that nature does not answer prayers, take sides in human affairs, or suspend the rules of the natural world for anyones benefit. A god that is everything is a god that is nowhere.

heavenlyabyss wrote:
I simply ask the question what is a god? Then if I get a definition of god I will decide whether I agree with that definition.


Here's where it gets fun; many people making the case for God want to define their particular concept of the (usually) christian God as a more "reasonable" one by stripping away the attributes attributed to him one by one. Physical form? No, he's more of an invisible entity who is everywhere at once. Answers prayers? Only at a rate indistinguishable from random chance, of course! Interferes in human happenings? Yes, in ways that are noticable only if you already believe, and will to all others look like a non-intervention from a god that might as well not exist at all.

That, and the bible does specify that God is a human-shaped entitity with a face (albeit one that causes death to mortals) who takes strolls in gardens, shows his back to Moses and punches Jacob in the balls rather than lose a wrestling match.

However, if the word "God" is to mean anything, it must be applicable to all things that we call gods. Everyone agrees that Thor is a god. Everyone agrees that Zeus is a god. Same with Vishnu. Same with Krishna. So, also, with Yahweh. So, what do all these characters have in common? They have magical powers, they are anthropomorphic, and they are in some sense, immortal.



YES; Pantheism is most definitely a theist belief; PAN THEISM; get it.

And Yes, both the Nocebo effect/affect and Placebo affect/effect
are real scientifically proven all natural benefits/dangers of human
belief. So yes, nature 'answers' prayers through the placebo effect.
And yes, bad stuff happens to cynics who believe that life is all a
b**CH, and stuff like that through the Nocebo effect; and don't
take my word for it; listen to the experts, if you care to; but
you are far off base in your claims here; in regard to Pantheism.

Pantheism is a theist belief; 'they' do Not name it PAN THEISM
JUST FOR the hell of it, my friend; that's just common SENSE.



Oh, and by the way; the Gnostic Jesus dude by accounts in
the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas describes GOD as
a Pantheist GOD as well; within humans, outside
humans; above so below; all around Nature
is what gnostic Jesus speaks to in the
link below, as well; even saying
hacking off foreskin is
stupid as that is
gifted by
NATURE
AKA
GOD,
AS WELL..;)

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/thomas.htm


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Wolfram87
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31 May 2015, 3:10 am

aghogday wrote:

YES; Pantheism is most definitely a theist belief; PAN THEISM; get it.

Pantheism is a theist belief; 'they' do Not name it PAN THEISM
JUST FOR the hell of it, my friend; that's just common SENSE.


Great, so malaria is just "bad air" and not a virus spread by mosquitoes? "Mal" (bad) and "aria"(air), get it?
If you're done not adressing my point, I said it was closer to the atheist/agnostic side of the spectrum, not that it was atheistic.


Quote:
And Yes, both the Nocebo effect/affect and Placebo affect/effect
are real scientifically proven all natural benefits/dangers of human
belief. So yes, nature 'answers' prayers through the placebo effect.
And yes, bad stuff happens to cynics who believe that life is all a
b**CH, and stuff like that through the Nocebo effect; and don't
take my word for it; listen to the experts, if you care to; but
you are far off base in your claims here; in regard to Pantheism.


Yet another attempted hijacking of scientific discoveries by the faithful, I see. Yes, the Nocebo and Placeo effects exist, and they are being studied by psychologists and psychiatrists; people who deal in brain chemistry. They are not yet fully understood, but I can assure you they have nothing to do with answered prayers. Joshua prayed that the sun and moon stand still in the sky so he could finish a battle, and they did. That's an answered prayer; a suspension of the natural laws for the benefit of the person praying. Feeling nauseous after being given a sugar pill and told it might make you nauseous has no bearing on that.


Quote:
Oh, and by the way; the Gnostic Jesus dude by accounts in
the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas describes GOD as
a Pantheist GOD as well; within humans, outside
humans; above so below; all around Nature
is what gnostic Jesus speaks to in the
link below, as well; even saying
hacking off foreskin is
stupid as that is
gifted by
NATURE
AKA
GOD,
AS WELL..;)


The gospel of Thomas, as I'm sure you know, is a non-canonical collection of alleged sayings by the equally alleged nazareene, written down by a guy who claims to have been part of Jesus' 'inner circle', but is referred to as one of the minor disciples in the other, canonical gospels. It might be a gnostic text, but is primarily thought of as such because it was found alongside other texts that were. From a philosophical standpoint, it might very well be superior to canon (can't help but notice the lack of magic), but seeing as it's non-canonical, it has little bearing on what most christians hold to.


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31 May 2015, 3:24 am

Ahem, neurologists are the ones who research/study neurons/neuro-transmitters, whilst psychologists are supposed to be more like counsellors, and psychiatrists are simply there to prescribe medication (NOT to be confused with medicine).

Wolfram87 wrote:
and they are being studied by psychologists and psychiatrists; people who deal in brain chemistry.

Now for a link to a relevant article...
Serotonin and Depression: A Disconnect between the Advertisements and the Scientific Literature


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31 May 2015, 3:58 am

I am a christian who recently joined the Mormon church, or as they prefer to be called, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I was raised in an atheist family and no one else in my family has ever been religious except for me.



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31 May 2015, 4:24 am

Ban-Dodger wrote:
Ahem, neurologists are the ones who research/study neurons/neuro-transmitters, whilst psychologists are supposed to be more like counsellors, and psychiatrists are simply there to prescribe medication (NOT to be confused with medicine).
Wolfram87 wrote:
and they are being studied by psychologists and psychiatrists; people who deal in brain chemistry.

Now for a link to a relevant article...
Serotonin and Depression: A Disconnect between the Advertisements and the Scientific Literature


I stand corrected. I'll admit, I scoured Wikipedia to find out what kind of experts were being cited. Thank you.


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31 May 2015, 9:14 am

Wolfram87 wrote:
aghogday wrote:

YES; Pantheism is most definitely a theist belief; PAN THEISM; get it.

Pantheism is a theist belief; 'they' do Not name it PAN THEISM
JUST FOR the hell of it, my friend; that's just common SENSE.


Great, so malaria is just "bad air" and not a virus spread by mosquitoes? "Mal" (bad) and "aria"(air), get it?
If you're done not adressing my point, I said it was closer to the atheist/agnostic side of the spectrum, not that it was atheistic.


Quote:
And Yes, both the Nocebo effect/affect and Placebo affect/effect
are real scientifically proven all natural benefits/dangers of human
belief. So yes, nature 'answers' prayers through the placebo effect.
And yes, bad stuff happens to cynics who believe that life is all a
b**CH, and stuff like that through the Nocebo effect; and don't
take my word for it; listen to the experts, if you care to; but
you are far off base in your claims here; in regard to Pantheism.


Yet another attempted hijacking of scientific discoveries by the faithful, I see. Yes, the Nocebo and Placeo effects exist, and they are being studied by psychologists and psychiatrists; people who deal in brain chemistry. They are not yet fully understood, but I can assure you they have nothing to do with answered prayers. Joshua prayed that the sun and moon stand still in the sky so he could finish a battle, and they did. That's an answered prayer; a suspension of the natural laws for the benefit of the person praying. Feeling nauseous after being given a sugar pill and told it might make you nauseous has no bearing on that.


Quote:
Oh, and by the way; the Gnostic Jesus dude by accounts in
the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas describes GOD as
a Pantheist GOD as well; within humans, outside
humans; above so below; all around Nature
is what gnostic Jesus speaks to in the
link below, as well; even saying
hacking off foreskin is
stupid as that is
gifted by
NATURE
AKA
GOD,
AS WELL..;)


The gospel of Thomas, as I'm sure you know, is a non-canonical collection of alleged sayings by the equally alleged nazareene, written down by a guy who claims to have been part of Jesus' 'inner circle', but is referred to as one of the minor disciples in the other, canonical gospels. It might be a gnostic text, but is primarily thought of as such because it was found alongside other texts that were. From a philosophical standpoint, it might very well be superior to canon (can't help but notice the lack of magic), but seeing as it's non-canonical, it has little bearing on what most christians hold to.


Again; COMMON SENSE, DUDE;

Belief is what makes prayer work AND

Belief is what makes the Placebo affect/effect work;

Yes, different metaphors, per 'Prayer' vs 'Placebo'.

But the bottom line in both RELIGION

AND SCIENCE IS THAT THEY BOTH WORK.

AND NO; 'aria' is not the same

frigging thing as 'air'..;)

(:aria is spelled different than air;)

And NO, PaN Theism is not even close to Agnosticism or Atheism;

IN PAN THEISM; there is both 100 percent faith and proof of GOD.

It's simple yes; but never the less; The TRUTH. Both short-sighted
Scientists and Christians have trouble seeing simple BIG PICTURE
Truths. And yes; that is part of the science of 'narrow left-brain'
ways of detail thinking vs. MUCH 'BROADER right-brain' visually
imaging, pattern, interpretive mind ways of thinking.

I do both; that makes me..

SPECIAL; that's my

Autistic Super Power;

BOTH..;)

And no, not all prayers work;

Even religious folks WILL tell ya that;
and scientists too; as not all folks
can benefit from the placebo
effect/affect or prayer.

Scientists suggest the
percentage is
at around
33%; and
chances are
that's why some
of the folks here are
atheists; as placebo
just will not work
for them; or prayer.

When it works; whether
or not it is magic; it
seems like magic;
and that just
increases the
REAL POWER
OF human belief
for those who can
access that POWER.

I FIND ways to increase that
power my friend; a year
ago, I believe I can
move mountains;
and while I cannot
move mountains;
I can leg press close
to half a ton with my
legs; as compared to
a quarter of a ton
nine months before
the power of my
Belief TAKES OFF
LIKE a real life
'superman'...

And yes, if you don't believe
it; there is proof of it
on YouTube; a search
on '930LB Leg Press',
will take ya to it..:)

Attitude is close to
100% of what makes
folks real life 'super men
and women'. The power
of the real human emotions
of hope, faith, and belief
DO POWER THIS for those
who are 'chosen' by the
GOD OF NATURE..:)

And no one proves
this God of Nature
is fair; other than
the notion of
Karma and
Reincarnation;
So if 'those two',
do not exist;
sorry, if you
are not one
of the 'chosen ones'
like me friend; sincerely..:)

That's just the way it goes;
perhaps or NOT..;)


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31 May 2015, 9:54 am

aghogday wrote:
YES; Pantheism is most definitely a theist belief; PAN THEISM; get it.

You are far off base in your claims here; in regard to Pantheism.

Pantheism is a theist belief; 'they' do Not name it PAN THEISM
JUST FOR the hell of it, my friend; that's just common SENSE.

Let's try this again.

I am among the 'they' who call their belief system pantheism. I call it pantheism because it is not theism. One of the particular things I dislike about religion is that there is a constant need to hijack other people's beliefs and declare them effectively the same. Theism is necessarily belief in divine intervention, deism is necessarily belief in a creator god without divine intervention afterwards, pantheism is not necessarily one or the other. It is a diverse group of beliefs. While some come from religious backgrounds in which they interpret Yahweh/Jehova/Allah to be pantheistic in structure, there are also several forms that merely consider nature to be 'the closest thing to a god', but not 'an actual god'.

I previously wrote:
I revere the inherent order of the universe and express it by learning about the natural sciences, but I don't consider the universe to be a conscious being. Naturalistic pantheism rejects belief in metaphysics or the supernatural, so atheism and agnosticism are the norm.
Wikipedia wrote:
Some members view themselves as atheists, while others hold agnostic stances. Some members use theistic vocabulary, however they do not believe in a thinking creator god, and simply use the word "God" to describe their feelings of reverence towards Nature and the wider Universe.

Naturalistic pantheism is more like a thought experiment, which does not in any way include a god. I believe the universe has a permanent order. I believe that 2+2 will always equal 4. If the laws of physics shift so that one day 2+2=4.0000000000000000001 then I will consider my thought experiment to have been disproved. And yes, I believe that is a possibility because I don't take my beliefs on faith. I'm an agnostic, an atheist, and a pantheist, and those all fit together just fine.

Sharing a root word does not make two things the same. A jackrabbit isn't a rabbit. It's a hare.
aghogday wrote:
Again; COMMON SENSE, DUDE;

Common sense is not a real thing. Common sense used to say the Earth was flat. Science disproved that. 'Common sense' is just a phrase people use to condescend others without providing sufficient evidence for their assessment.
aghogday wrote:
IN PAN THEISM; there is both 100 percent faith and proof of GOD.

Faith and proof are in opposition to one another, and pantheism in no way requires 100% faith or proof of god.
aghogday wrote:
And yes; that is part of the science of 'narrow left-brain'
ways of detail thinking vs. MUCH 'BROADER right-brain' visually
imaging, pattern, interpretive mind ways of thinking.

Bad science.

Summation: Your beliefs sound like a form of pantheism, but you do not understand the whole of us. You do not speak for us.