Life is what YOU make it

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@cube & name

Here's the bottom line. What you guys are describing is an unexamined, reactive life. The penalty for that IS misery, but you needn't live that way.

If you guys really think that's the only way to live, it's no wonder you're unhappy.

Are you suggesting that your post was difficult to comprehend? Your point was perfectly clear, I just happen to disagree with it. It's amazing how often the above line is used on these forums - usually I associate it with the poster being unable to consider the possibility that their thinking is wrong.



You're implying that the parent has a choice in the matter, which I've just contested they absolutely do not. The majority of parents will express 'unconditional love' towards their offspring, will overlook or outright deny their flaws and over-inflating their abilities.

Your question is misleading and presents something of a false dichotomy. Neither of the courses suggested is 'wise'. Moreover, in this instance you genuinely have misunderstood my response, which could explain your belief that I missed the point of yours. Consider, for a moment, the child of a parent who followed the first path and rejected them, blaming the fates (or a god, or whatever) for cursing them with inferior offspring. How would the parent's behaviour affect the child's ability to have "TOTAL control" of how they experience life?



By this do you mean any instance or all instances?




Nonsense. These are subjective variables, not absolutes.



Justice, temperance, courage and freedom are relative terms which hinge on the aforementioned subjectivity, as are their opposites. "Truly bad" is another absolutist fiction. Would you wish good health on an unjust, intemperate, cowardly dictator? Sickness has been a crucial component of the evolution of life on Earth, and poverty can be liberating. If anything, you're limiting your perception by clouding it with feel good mumbo jumbo.



We have zero control over society's consensus of what constitutes virtuosity. You cannot choose temperance when put under duress - which has happened and will happen to all of us. Courage is impossible without fear, and suffering is a by-product of living.



Pure rhetoric, and utter drivel. How much value we place on things are a reflection of our environment and nurturing. You don't control the experiences which inform your valuations, let alone the valuations themselves.



Cognitive Behavioural Therapy starts with the premise that the patient's thinking is incompatible with a normative standard which is itself beyond the control of either the patient or their therapist. You're basically making the case against your own argument. We like to kid ourselves that we're the masters of our own destinies, but the truth is that only a fraction of a fraction of our agency can be said to be our own.

Whatever gives you the impression that I'm unhappy?

All you've demonstrated here is your own hubris.

adifferentname

It looks like you beat me to the punch my friend. Goonsquad, the attributes you mentioned like courage, temperance, etc and even happiness are open to interpretation and are subjective like adifferentname said. The problem is what is truly good, truly bad and indifferent is again open to interpretation. For example, one may need some money or wealth to obtain some of these virtues and to learn these virtues from those who are masters at them. How is wealth necessarily indifferent?

Let's talk about courage. What must one have courage in? Is courage noble in all instances? If I decide to climb Mount Everest naked, with no water and no food and no supplies is this courage or is this foolishness?

Justice, temperance and freedom. What do these things even mean? How do we apply them? For example, is freedom noble when we have 1% of the population who has the freedom to gain control of most of the world's wealth and become our rulers by economic control?

What must we have temperance in exactly? Everything? All instances? Does temperance apply to what is considered noble including temperance, justice, freedom ,etc?

Why must the ultimate goal of living be happiness? What is happiness exactly? What is the underlying essence of happiness Who says this? Why can't it be another goal? Is happiness the whole story of life that one must pursue? Why?

Goonsquad like adifferentname asked, how do you figure either of us is unhappy? I will say that a lot of things do baffle and confuse me. For example, I don't understand how internal locus of control holds up in the sense that the USA culture holds it up to and I don't grasp how attitude and smiles will fix our underlying societal problems.

Last edited by cubedemon6073 on 17 Jun 2015, 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I'm not going to rebut your post point by point because that's pointless and I don't have the desire or energy, frankly...

BUT, I will say that I did miss your point a bit, because I find it TRULY unbelievable that you think a parent (or anyone) could be so reactive and respond in such an unthinking manner. Sure some people do that, but that really is the behavior of an unthinking animal, not a rational being. That really is a truly alien concept to me to thinkthat most/all people behave this way. I won't try to argue you out of this idea because I simply do not understand how you could conceive of such a world. I actually horrifies me to think that most people could only operate at such an animalistic, reactive level.

As for the bit quoted above, you obviously don't understand or didn't read what I wrote and you don't understand what CBT is.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/in-depth-co ... l-therapy/
here's a pretty good definition.


I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, claimed that people were in control of anything other than their own thoughts. But, being in control of one's thoughts and judgements about the world is enough to be happy in most situations.

Sure, it is absolutely subjective, but that doesn't matter. This is a COMPLETELY INTERNAL PROCESS and it doesn't matter how things are in the external world.

But, like I said, I'm not going to argue with you about this. It's a philosophy/value system/approach to psychology that has worked for many thousands of people for many hundreds of years.

You have to decide for yourself how you want to live your life and what works for you.

I despise fortune cookie philosophy. I don't bother reading the shelves of self-help books exactly because there are shelves of them and I have a better time watching for the blue heron that likes to fish near to where I live. And I really don't care for this particular thought "Life is what YOU make of it". It is tedious. Hollow. But there's a reason why this is so--no reflective quality.

What is interesting to me is in what people define as "life". Is it here in this moment--in what might be a disastrous and terrorizing period, or what might be the most fabulous fantastic experience in life, and what are these? Or is life simply surviving in a world with billions of other lives? Or is life being remembered? Or is it in something beyond this moment--in an ideal or in a faith that brings about a joy over a periodic happiness?

I suppose different people will define life differently.

If one is caught in a terrible circumstance, isn't that person made better when he/she can define themselves as more than it? And as the person is better in terms of well-being of the soul, does this not make better the experience in that it is fleeting, while that person's deeper sense of being is not limited to fleeting events?

Again, I suppose there are people who will say we are nothing more than our 5 senses, existing for the moment or in spite of it. And that's a sad and inadequate sense of being. Just as sad as the fortune cookie saying.

Again, specific experiences need reflection. And that reflection is not delusion but interpretation. Interpretation is not through self alone. Consider that everything we say and do and think is through millennia of yet more people saying and doing and thinking before us. Proof that we are social creatures at a minimum and as such, we are able to reflect on events.

You are right in that this is totally subjective. That really doesn't matter.

You seem to think that there's some absolute definition for unhappiness. So, tell me, what makes an unhappy life? and why is your answer absolutely true.

This entire topic, about life being what you make it, is COMPLETELY subjective because what our lives are is completely based on our subjective conclusions about it...

If you think I'm dealing in subjectives, you're right. If you think you're not, you'd better think again.

From a psychological point of view most people's happiness or sadness is based upon their subjective judgements about the world/their own lives. That's completely subjective and completely within your control.

If it isn't, provide an example and I'll recant.

OH GOD; AMEN.

I WAS evaluated by doctors

as worse OFF THAN most

Nursing home patients at age 80.

I was beyond repair by these doctors; and considered a lost cause.

I could not move without almost passing out; even raising my arms in air.

No therapy or drug was offered that could touch the misery of type two Trigeminal
Neuralgia; the worst pain known to mankind named the suicide disease from
wake to sleep.

Dysautonomia, a so-called incurable condition where the nervous system no
longer controls the heart rate and blood pressure in autonomic sync; Fibroymyalgia;
Sjogren Syndrome where eyes quit making tears like swimming with eyes open
in salt water; Spinal Stenosis and Severe Degenerative Arthritis associated
with a congenitally fused C-6 vertebrae; and congenitally blocked sinuses
in septal way from birth where the ENT asked me how the hell have you
breathed through the course of all your life (duh; through my mouth);
yes; that is related to the Trigeminal Neuralgia as well; it gets
complicated as doctors don't even know fully how it comes or
goes; and yeah other stuff like PTSD; Anhedonia; Alexithymia;
Severe Depression; Severe Anxiety; Coat Hanger Pain;
ADHD; PDD NOS aka Asperger's in Sweden
in Gillberg Criteria with language delay
until age 4; and problems with both
written and oral communication
most all my life;
and oh folks
mistook me for
female at age 13
or so; what THE F
does a person do
about that;
OG if it wasn't
for BELIEF IN
WHATEVER THE
F I CAN DO
DOES COME
TRUE; THE
REAL emotions
of faith; hope; and
an overall TRUTH OF
HIGHER HUMAN POTENTIAL
of relative free will; I will
still be sitting in my underwear all shut-in and permanently disabled behind this frigging
computer, instead of living large; leg pressing 930 LBS with my arms raised in air on parallel
leg press machine that is twice as hard as vertical leg press machine; like no man in the entire
world can do on YOU TUBE; nicely illustrated 14 times with a quote of '930LBS leg press' searchable
on YOUTUBE; and then there is two blog posts found similar with quotes named 'God's Muse of
Dance' and '666 Months of Dance' illustrating well over 300 gorgeous women smiling ear to
ear with me by the muse of dance I bring to them; named by THEM AND OTHERS in titles
of human ranging from Boss of Dance to Hero of Dance to Legend of Dance to the
my most latest favorite one of SPIRIT ANIMAL; by two of the newer lovely girls
I do inspire in their young life freer; And yes, 3714 miles of dance walk all
over my metro area in all the public stores; as documented on my blogs
on a daily; 22 months; empirically measured by Nike GPS sports watch;
and to top it off I am the only middle aged male anywhere in the
world to do all new age Renaissance Male Selfie Nude ART;
freer than most males can imagine in their life;
to share as well with all my friends in the
dance of FREEST HUMAN LIFE;

YES; HELL YES; 'LIFE IS WHAT YOU MAKE IT'
But NO hell NO; it ain't easy; there are no
CLEAR INSTRUCTIONS; and perhaps others
will have to go to REAL HUMAN Hell before
they can make their life a miracle as I irrefutably
evidence, I have in all natural HUMAN WAY; There
is a higher power of GOD that does exist in humans;
and perhaps the only true chosen ones are the JOBS OF LIFE..

To be clear this post is in direct communication to my friend up there
who never gives up either and most importantly BELIEVE IN HIMSELF;

PLEASE frigging ignore it if you don't believe in Miracles; all Natural Style;
as for the chosen ones of life who do BELIEVE; MIRACLES DO COME TRUE..

And to crystal clear; GOD IS ALL THAT IS OF NATURE; ALL REAL ALL THE TIME..

Oh yeah; by the way Spider Man exists; in metaphor only of course, smiles;
almost anything IS possible for at least some of us; yes, mileage varies there
is no Fair in one life;
as far as I know; sad for others
about that; but yes, i for one have
found the secrets of life; mastered
them; and prospered more than any
dream I can imagine, sitting behind this
computer like 'Breaking Bad' without METH..

It is possible; but not likely for everyone;

All that is left is hope, faith, and belief;
real emotions; that emote positive
action for those
who can master
THAT..

Okay... Let me address this underlined bit specifically. If this was the point of this thread, I'm sorry I chimed in at all, because to think that 'positive thinking' could effect this is simply irrational and never occurred to me at all.

That would be like some kind of magical "the secret" type of utter BS.

What I'm talking about is a purely subjective set of psychological tools that people have been using for hundeds of years to cope with the difficulties of life.

If this thread was about how people can somehow manipulate reality with positive thinking, jesus h. christ, I'm sorry I ever wasted a post here.

Nevermind.

I am glad there is a feature now that tells me if there is a new post or not. I was going to make a rebuttal but I don't need to anymore. Yes, if the secret is what I think it is then that is exactly to what I'm referring to. It is this whole idea that one can make reality manifest with thoughts and feelings alone like Q from Star Trek. This positive thinking that people in America seems to believe and they run their lives on is based upon the ideas inherent to "The Secret." One can't just wish oneself to be happy or confident. Like you said, it takes work. One has to analyze and peel back one's thoughts and assumptions my friend.

It is the same thing with a society with a given set of beliefs and values. To fix our societal problems, imho, one has to examine and analyze the assumptions and the narrative one is working under.

If CBT does this, then I'm all for it. If it is a bunch of self-help positive bumper sticker slogans like "Death Squads" with Sara Palin or "Attitude is more important than the facts" or telling me to "stay positive" then my mind will resist it all of the way. If CBT will get me to a positive state through a rigourous analysis of one's thoughts and explanations then I'm all for it. If it is a bunch of reductionist philosophy and oversimplified than again my mind will shut down.

IMHO, we don't need more positive thinking or positive affirmations and bumper slogans. What I think our society needs is more critical thinking.

I'm very skeptical of someone telling me that this is the way without them telling me how they got to their way and leaving themselves open to reproof. They treat it as the absolute set in stone that this is the way we must go without question or examination.

That justification might suffice by your standards, to me it rather suggests you recognise that your position is weak.



Nice emotional appeal.

Humans are animals. To deny parental instinct is to deny humanity itself. We're highly evolved apes - our reactive, animalistic instincts are part of why we got this far.

Would I be right to assume that you have no children?



The more you use the argument "you disagree with me so you obviously don't understand", the more you demonstrate the limitations on your own perceptions. "You're wrong because I say so" is not a valid argument, and merely highlights the inflexibility which hampers your own control over the world. My very brief statement on the nature of Cognitive Behavioural Therapy was logically sound. Your counter argument was the equivalent of a small child chanting "nah nah nah I'm not listening", whilst clamping their palms to their ears.



You're continuing to miss the point, and I suspect you will continue to do so.

Where did the words which you use to construct your COMPLETELY INTERNAL PROCESS come from? What moral lessons did your parent(s) pass on to you? Which books have you read? What are your favourite TV shows? What were you taught in school? Were you introduced to religion at a young age? If so, which religion?

You have never experienced life without perception, and without the means to perceive, except briefly whilst in utero. You do not control the information which flows into your head from without, and so your COMPLETELY INTERNAL PROCESS is contaminated by external data.



You already have argued with me, and without actually establishing what my understanding of the subject matter is. Your appeal to authority is noted, summarily dismissed and further scorned.



Is the age in your profile accurate? You come across like a first year psych student who just attended their first lecture.

Yeah, that's pretty much what the secret is all about. I never really thought about a lot of people operating in that framework, but I guess many do, to a greater or lesser degree.


CBT and SFBT (solution focused brief therapy) are both extremely analytical, no nonsense (i.e. no Freud/Jung) approaches to psychology. They're both based on rational self-examination of emotional responses/states and practical problem solving.


Actually, Stoicism is also completely based in reason and critical thinking. It's an ethical/moral system first and foremost, but it is not based on arbitrary notions--except as stated before, that justice, courage, temperance, and freedom are the basic components of virtue, and that reason should be the ruling characteristic of man.

It also emphasizes 3 disciplines:

“The Discipline of Desire”, which has to do with acceptance of our fate
“The Discipline of Action”, which has to do with philanthropy or love of mankind
“The Discipline of Assent”, which has to do with mindfulness of our judgements

http://philosophy-of-cbt.com/2013/02/20 ... sciplines/

I think you'd find the philosophy interesting and useful.

If you find the website interesting at all, I'd recommend finding a copy of The Inner Citadel by Pierre Hadot...

It won't be in the self-help section.

PS

If some of the quotes I posted sound like bumper slogans, there is good reason. In an age when most people could not read and those who could couldn't afford hand copied books, philosophy had to be distilled into easily remembered bite-sized pieces.

Those quotes come from the Enchiridion (literally the handbook) of Epictetus. It was sort of an ancient version of Cliff's notes for Stoic philosophy.

Anyways... sorry for derailing the thread.