Basic income as a human right

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Libertarianism: for when you want to build your own roads.

Governments force people to be dependent upon government.

Without governments everybody would be independent.

in the beginning, but eventually could well devolve into press-ganging others into doing the dirty work at gunpoint at worst, or as indentured servants fed near-starvation rations for their back-breaking labor, at best.

at which point it stops being libertarianism.

exactly.

Not really. In the free market good libertarians might let the poor pay their debts in slavery and back-breaking labor.

And with their meat once they actually break their backs.

some folks wish to take the thin veneer of civilization and use it for kindling.

There is nothing wrong with saying you have to stay sober to be part of a program. When people need those programs bad enough they will comply. My best friend goes to the methadone clinic because she's a heroin junkie. She put it off and put it off but finally did it. They require her to stay off all other drugs including weed. They test her. She really likes weed and would like to smoke it but because she needs the methadone more she doesn't smoke weed. Her boyfriend screwed up and smoked weed and also did some other drugs and got kicked out of the program. He's also been kicked out of where he was staying because he wouldn't stay sober or keep a job. He won't keep a job or stay sober so just about everybody is done with him and he's on his own. Even the preacher won't let him stay there now. She's about to leave him because she's getting her life together and he's dragging her down. He's a skinhead, know it all douchebag who is a huge pain in the ass to be around. He doesn't deserve a handout. He really doesn't. He doesn't care enough to make any effort at all and just relies on everybody else to give him what he needs. He recently got 30k in back payments of social security. She had plans for them with that. A house, a job, getting her kids back, etc. He put most of it up his arm and they are living in a hotel now and that money is gone. They got it in May. Thats the guy you want to give money to. You still think it's a good idea?

I think the idea,basic income is actually a very good idea because as it stands now we have a very exploitative system and the working people have absolutely no power or recourse whatsoever.It just no right for someone who does little to nothing than own or inherit something can make more money than one human should ever have when all that money is made by the blood,sweat and tears of the workers.We have union because the bosses cannot be trusted and have way more political and social power the point of unions were to giving the common some leverage so they are not reduced to expendable cogs that are in a position of servitude.Not having anything in place to control inherited wealth in just inviting a disaster.On the subject of Welfare what we spend on it is a drop in the bucket compared the what the federal government gives away to people and groups who don't deserve a red cent.We frankly have got to dismantle the entire system and build a new one because the current is unsustainable and inhumane.That's one of the reasons I can't stand Capitalist Fundementalists who won't even admit the system is deeply flawed and refuses to do damn to mitigate these issue,I think the whole system should be brought down because the time has come for us to move on.But having system in place to mitigate the all the issues capitalism causes would be better than no change at all.It also be very helpful in shifting away from it slowly but I don't see that happening I see its death being quick and violent.Make no mistake Captialism is dying,think what you will of Marx but most of his predictions about the stages of capitalism have come true and we can't not keep a system that only benefits a very small percentage of the population,threatens our survival as a species just because some people fear the unknown and have been force fed propaganda that there is nothing better and that we will never move on from this.To be honest I am sure people said the same thing about Feudalism.

So, you don't want people to own their own property? It wouldn't go over very well when the government came out and said OOM, your kids are grown and moved away and it's only you and your husband living there now. We are taking your four bedroom house and giving it to a family with younger kids living with them and putting you two into a small one bedroom apartment. You would be ok with something like that? You'd be ok with people saying "You are doing the same work as this guy over here, but he has more people to feed so I'm paying him more. I expect you to still bust your ass on the job every day and earn barely more than minimum wage, but hey it's better this way"? You would actually be ok with redistributing things that others own? With basing someone's salary on how many people they support and not how well they do their job? Really? Because most people in the US wouldn't. Thats why we live in the US and aren't immigrating to a communist country.

That'd be extra funny for people who would like to have kids, but don't because they can't afford to raise them.

that is why I have long admired "the third way" of the Scandinavians/northern Europeans. there is still capitalism/private property but also a recognition that pure capitalism is as toxic a form of tyranny [of money] as is Marxism/Leninism. so many of our problems would be solved if only people in the .1% could see past their own avarice and embrace "win-win" instead of win/lose.

It's not like there is a limited amount of money to be earned and the richest are hogging it all. Other people can earn just as much as the richest folks if they have the ability, etc. I know that it's not really possible for me or you to go out and do that, but in theory we could. There is no need to take what others have earned simply because we are jealous that they have more than they could ever use. We wouldn't apply that to things other than money would we? Nobody would say "You have more kids than you need so I'm giving some to this family who can't have children" or "You have been married for 30 years so you are divorcing and each of you are going to marry someone who hasn't ever been able to find a relationship" etc. That would be insane and I honestly don't think it's much saner to take away something that someone else earned even though it's excessive. I'm jealous of what they have and would love to have it myself many times, but I don't think anybody has a right to take it from them or limit how much they can earn.

you are opposed to taxation for the general societal good, we will not agree on that point. no matter

I don't know how you derived that from what I said or that supported communism especially in forms that its existed in our world.All I meant was that I think that its wrong for that some people have insane amounts of money and the transfer of large amounts of wealth between generation creates the problem of leading to a landed gentry who have vast amounts of money and the greed and avarice to come alongside it and having never known what its like having to work for a living its been shown that the super wealthy have less empathy because they don't understand or care about the other half.I take great issue with the fact that we live in a country the family can forced onto the streets because one of the parent lost a job because it was shipped overseas because all the corporations care about is making profit for themselves and their shareholders and have no sense of social responsibility.I also take issue with fact the some politicians in this country fail to acknowledge the many failings of capitalism,and rail against the quite bare bones safety net (compared to that of comparable countries) who's only replacement plan is either let them die or to rely on system not able to fit their needs.I am also steadfast against kicking people out their homes for any reason and I find a lot to admire in the Scandinavian system as well.Basic income is good idea when used as complementary measure to a robust safety net,since as it stand full employment especially gainful employment is impossible,its impossible for everyone to be rich in a capitalist society but there is no reason why those who are not the top should live lives of unending uncertainty and poverty.Think of it like this that Basic income gets injected into the economy and people will still work and any money they make is a bonus on top of the basic income.A society where the disparity between rich and poor is smaller is always a better one.A society were more people have a decent amount money works well for everyone when compared to a society where small group has a ton of money.
Also at no point did I state I thought Communism was the right answer just that I think its time we get ready to move on from Capitalism because while a necessary step in the evolution of human society it can't last forever because nothing does.What replaces it is not necessarily Communism or Third Way,it could be something brand new or something we know but was never really given a chance.I don't know,I am not a prophet the only thing I know is that we can not keep going in the direction we are heading because the longer we do so the more peril it puts us in and we need to find a more ethical and humane way.The things some people advocate would only accelerate and exacerbate our problems and ultimately leading to a society that can only described as the new feudalism.I see it like this one group depends on their wages to survive,while for the other it just grows the pile.At the end of the day I am gonna be more concerned for the people who need to work in order survive over those who have enough to survive for several lifetimes.Actually there is a limited amount of money of money because if you print to much it loses its value and cause deflation.Another issue comes from the fact that income among the rich as skyrocketed in the past 30 years while wages for everyone else have stagnated and most certainly not kept up with inflation or rising cost of living.That needs to change.You shouldn't work two jobs and still be in poverty.