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Should it be banned?
Yes - it is a symbol of oppression 18%  18%  [ 3 ]
Yes for government, but it should still be allowed for private individuals to fly 12%  12%  [ 2 ]
No - it is the symbol of the country 71%  71%  [ 12 ]
Total votes : 17

RoadRatt
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25 Jun 2015, 9:28 pm



My country 'tis of thee
Sweet land of poverty
for thee I weep
My country 'tis of thee
Sweet land of poverty
for thee I weep

Land where my mother cried
land where my father died
sweet land of genocide
pride of my heart

My country 'tis of thee
sweet land of industry
we'll break your back

Clean out your minerals
fill you with chemicals
we kill for what is profitable
oh concrete world

our climate suffering
all nature feels the sting
poisoned progress

all of these mouths to feed
all of this this land to seed
from sea to shining sea
gold underground

our people left to die
battlefield countryside
paved over graves

suburban privileges make
desolate villages
broken treaties broken promises
conquer repeat
repeat repeat

all warriors represent
remind those who forget
the time is now

to walk in humbled pride
prepare and fortify
resist comforts of compromise
pray for guidance


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Dillogic
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25 Jun 2015, 9:59 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Citation please.


Jefferson spoke of the "inferiority" of the negro, and that segregation is needed if they were ever freed. You can't get more tangible than that for its intentions and implications. Others at the time speak of the foundation of the US as being for the white man. I'm pretty sure black people couldn't be citizens for some time after the foundation too, even if freed.

It's beyond clear that the US was made from and for the [European] white man, and blacks were deemed as inferior and to be kept separate.

So, if you dislike the CSA flag, you must also dislike the Stars and Stripes (both were founded on rebellion and racism).



blauSamstag
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25 Jun 2015, 10:06 pm

Dillogic wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Citation please.


Jefferson spoke of the "inferiority" of the negro, and that segregation is needed if they were ever freed. You can't get more tangible than that for its intentions and implications. Others at the time speak of the foundation of the US as being for the white man. I'm pretty sure black people couldn't be citizens for some time after the foundation too, even if freed.

It's beyond clear that the US was made from and for the [European] white man, and blacks were deemed as inferior and to be kept separate.

So, if you dislike the CSA flag, you must also dislike the Stars and Stripes (both were founded on rebellion and racism).


A few of our founding fathers were racist and that means the flag is about racism?

The people who designed the CSA flag actually said that it's about white supremacy.



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25 Jun 2015, 11:09 pm

I'm pretty sure one flag's country still exists, and the other one dissolved a very long time ago. The one that dissolved lost so badly in the end they had to revise their history to make it a moral victory.

The manufactured controversy is that because state governments are taking down the flag, it is somehow being banned. A company that takes down ordered stock because they might find it detrimental to their brand is not censorship. I'm sorry, it's not.



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25 Jun 2015, 11:46 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
A few of our founding fathers were racist and that means the flag is about racism?

The people who designed the CSA flag actually said that it's about white supremacy.


It was based on white supremacy in that the values it spoke of were for white men; combine it with the opinions of the framers, and there you go.

Whilst its goodness, its freedom and liberty, are ideals worthy of respect, it still only applied to the white man in the beginning.

"All men created equal" referred to white men. Black men weren't men in this context, rather property.

Whilst it has change now, it still was a racist flag for a racist people in a racist country at its foundation.

(I'm not putting any judgement here on them. I agree with an ethnically homogenous society being the best in regards to overall peace and prosperity for all in that society, though I don't think there's any set better way for each homogeneity, rather that it all should be played out without too much interference, like colonialism.)



Last edited by Dillogic on 25 Jun 2015, 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

lostonearth35
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25 Jun 2015, 11:49 pm

You know what? I don't give a flying fig about what Americans do or don't do any more unless it affects our country as well. If you want to ban your own flag that's your decision. You've banned Kinder Surprise Eggs and shaking hands or playing baseball at a kids' school, but not guns.



Fugu
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25 Jun 2015, 11:52 pm

Dillogic wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
A few of our founding fathers were racist and that means the flag is about racism?

The people who designed the CSA flag actually said that it's about white supremacy.


It was based on white supremacy in that the values it spoke of were for white men; combine it with the opinions of the framers, and there you go.

Whilst its goodness, its freedom and liberty, are ideals worthy of respect, it still only applied to the white man in the beginning.

"All men created equal" referred to white men. Black men weren't men in this context, rather property.

Whilst it has change now, it still was a racist flag for a racist people in a racist country.
the key difference is that the confederate constitution specifically disallows the member states from being able to free slaves or change the laws regarding slavery, which flies in the face of any claim of state's rights.



Dillogic
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26 Jun 2015, 12:02 am

Fugu wrote:
the key difference is that the confederate constitution specifically disallows the member states from being able to free slaves or change the laws regarding slavery, which flies in the face of any claim of state's rights.


Having a law allowing for the certainty of slavery isn't worst than not acknowledging it based on the fact that it's deemed as an appropriate social norm, which it was at the foundation of the US.

Making the CSA the boogeyman for the abuse of Africans is pretty much trying to shift all of the blame to them to absolve the country as a whole.

That's running from your sins.



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26 Jun 2015, 12:06 am

Dillogic wrote:
Fugu wrote:
the key difference is that the confederate constitution specifically disallows the member states from being able to free slaves or change the laws regarding slavery, which flies in the face of any claim of state's rights.


Having a law allowing for the certainty of slavery isn't worst than not acknowledging it based on the fact that it's deemed as an appropriate social norm, which it was at the foundation of the US.

Making the CSA the boogeyman for the abuse of Africans is pretty much trying to shift all of the blame to them to absolve the country as a whole.

That's running from your sins.
yah, it's not a boogyman, you're obviously pretty ignorant of american history.

http://www.history.com/topics/american- ... of-america
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confedera ... of_America
The Confederate States of America (CSA or C.S.), commonly referred to as the Confederacy, was an unrecognized confederation of secessionist American states existing from 1861 to 1865. It was originally formed by seven slave states in the Lower South region of the United States whose regional economy was mostly dependent upon agriculture, particularly cotton, and a plantation system that relied upon slave labor.[2]



Dillogic
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26 Jun 2015, 1:33 am

Depends what you mean by ignorant.

Back in 2003, the Stars and Stripes invaded a sovereign nation on the pretense of having, "banned weapons" (which was false), and subsequently killed around 500,000 people directly or indirectly.

CSA doesn't look any worst than that.

And you don't touch on the abuse [and slavery] of blacks when the US was formed (which the CSA was a descendant of).

I'm pretty sure this fits the definition of hypocrisy; caring about the CSA battle flag, but not the Stars and Stripes.



Inventor
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26 Jun 2015, 3:25 am

Slavery is not even mentioned, because it had existed forever.

Men servants and Maid servants in the Bible were not paid an hourly wage, they were owned.

The Greeks and Romans who Western Civilization are based on had slaves.

Egypt of old had African slaves.

English fortunes were made on hauling Africans to the Islands, running factory scale slavery, producing Sugar and Rum.

English also sent an equal number of Irish slaves to the islands.

Indentured Servant traded seven years a slave for the cost of passage.

Casket Girls agreed to marry some unknown man in exchange for passage.

Wage Slaves were considered Servants, and in Bondage. Bound to serve in good faith.

Employee Employer Law comes directly from English Master Servant Law.

Employers did not have to provide housing, clothing, food.

Obligations to Servants and Slaves were in English Law. The same as the laws of Rome or Greece protected slaves.

The new class, Corporations, had no personal liability, and employees of Corporations had no Rights.

Corporations ran spinning and weaving mills in New England, they employed mill hands, who worked twelve hours a day six days a week. They hired the cheapest labor, children of six up, and any injured or killed were also fired.

Slavery made them look bad. Slaves were given a house, food, clothing, and worked at planting time, cultivated the crop twice, then picked the cotton. Slaves were also given land to garden. Old and injured slaves were cared for.

It was an economic change much like our recent change from a Defined Benefit Retirement, to a 401K.

Corporations ducked out on unfunded Pensions.

With Employees Corporations held all the cards, had no obligations, and could exploit labor to death.

The rise of Corporations was behind the attack on Slavery, Indentured Servitude, and Servants, where the Owner/Master, had Legal Obligations.

It took seventy years, Joe Hill, the IWW, and a lot of blood shed before Workers gained back any rights.

The Industrial Revolution starts in 1840 England, machines, Spinning Jenny, Power Looms, Cotton Gin, are replacing labor.

The Potato Famine made Irish labor free for the hauling. The intent was to replace slaves with Irish and Machines, and make massive Profits.

Abolish slavery, the newly cleared South which was producing wealth would fail and could be bought out cheaply.

The same people who burned the White House and Patent Office in 1812 were back to recover their colonies.

Lincoln was a Corporate Lawyer, worked for the Railroads, which were owned by British Investors.

The British loved Africans so much that when they got the Maxim Machine Gun, they used it all over Africa.

The Morality of the event was they got Americans to kill each other for the right to become wage slaves without rights.



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26 Jun 2015, 11:14 am

Dillogic wrote:
Depends what you mean by ignorant.

Back in 2003, the Stars and Stripes invaded a sovereign nation on the pretense of having, "banned weapons" (which was false), and subsequently killed around 500,000 people directly or indirectly.

CSA doesn't look any worst than that.

And you don't touch on the abuse [and slavery] of blacks when the US was formed (which the CSA was a descendant of).

I'm pretty sure this fits the definition of hypocrisy; caring about the CSA battle flag, but not the Stars and Stripes.

ig·no·rant
ˈiɡnərənt/
adjective
lacking knowledge, information, or awareness about something in particular.

The confederacy seceded specifically because the North wouldn't allow slavery any more, pointing to the periods before the civil war and going "aha they're both as bad" shows you've never studied american history in anything more than a cursory fashion.



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26 Jun 2015, 3:58 pm

^^^

Yup; life ain't black and white.

The American FLAG, yes, overall; is A symbol for human freedom.

While the Confederate Flag, yes, overall; is a symbol for human slavery.

One is designed to give at least most humans freedom;

the other is designed specifically

to KEEP BLACK FOLKS
IN BONDAGE OF SLAVERY.

Anyone who lives in the deep south knows precisely
what that Confederate Flag stands for and one
will rarely ever see someone flying it over their
pick-up truck who is not vocally prejudiced against
black folks; that is just the hard cruel reality of it
on the REAL STREETS OF SOUTHERN LIFE; anyone
who thinks differently, ain't been up to the farm
lately; like I do on a once a month basis; to watch
the negro haters eat; as well as worship Jesus
at the same table of hate; with homosexuals,
single mothers raising children
and anything else
against patriarchal ideals
of religious white beliefs;
yes, overall; Jesus for
them, is A leader
of a century old
metaphor of the
'KKK'; and all this
frigging birther
stuff is born
as Confederate
Flag symbolism
stuff too; just ain't
no hangings anymore;
as that is a hate crime;
with serious legal ramifications
of punishment; and years in jail.

But just a decade ago, the folks in the military
where I live, are advised NOT TO GO TO so-called
'redneck farm-town Jay' after dark; by their peers in the know;
if they wanna come back
alive in one
piece of continued usable
equipment for the military.

Yes, in Jay, the confederate flags fly
high and shamefully
proud.
It's truly disgusting,
and changing slowly
as 'those' flags are finally
being taken down in public
places where I life, as a result of
of this ignorant mindless killing
fueled by a life of prejudice and
in general, the four letter word, hate.

The killer is achieving precisely the opposite
of what he hopes; a true fool for his hate fueled beliefs.


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Dillogic
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26 Jun 2015, 6:28 pm

Fugu wrote:
The confederacy seceded specifically because the North wouldn't allow slavery any more, pointing to the periods before the civil war and going "aha they're both as bad" shows you've never studied american history in anything more than a cursory fashion.


Of course that's why they seceded.

But that doesn't make them worst than the US overall.

The Stars and Stripes were just as bad as the CSA in the beginning if you're talking about the treatment of black people, and the evidence for that is easy to find.

How is that ignorant?



Fugu
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26 Jun 2015, 10:05 pm

Dillogic wrote:
Fugu wrote:
The confederacy seceded specifically because the North wouldn't allow slavery any more, pointing to the periods before the civil war and going "aha they're both as bad" shows you've never studied american history in anything more than a cursory fashion.


Of course that's why they seceded.

But that doesn't make them worst than the US overall.

The Stars and Stripes were just as bad as the CSA in the beginning if you're talking about the treatment of black people, and the evidence for that is easy to find.

How is that ignorant?
them seceding doesn't make them worse, the way that they were actively hypocritical to claim it was about state's rights when their own constitution specifically limits what rights the states had.

also the Union, at the time, was not building the rights of slavers while the Confederates were actively doing so.