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blauSamstag
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03 Jul 2015, 10:06 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
With regard to majority pride, a friend of mine put it most succinctly:

"When you are in first place in Mario Cart you don't get the blue shell."


But we want equality, which basically means no one is in first place. Saying someone can't have something because they're in first place isn't equality. I don't want anyone to have any special privilege or to be put down just for being who they are.


It has nothing to do with equality or inequality.

It's about celebrating culture.

In the USA we are a melting pot but we still have our individual cultures.

I'm a white male, and i think it would be kinda twisted to have a white male day.

On the other hand i am of scandinavian descent, and there are any number of scandinavian festivals i can attend, and not one person bats an eye.

And we're whiter than almost all of you. Heck, if you're from some other part of europe or the british isles, my ancestors used to pillage your ancestors.

I live in the town where a minor league team decided to cancel their "caucasian heritage" night. My southern redneck friend was super-duper pissed about that.

There are highland games for the scottish folks, we have a whole town that looks like a bavarian village that has it's own german festival, st. patrick's day, columbus day, etc. Nobody seems to have a bad word to say about any of that.

If you call it "white pride day" that sounds a lot like it's the aryan nation throwing a party and people are going to get upset about it.

Caucasian is a weird term, since it strictly means someone from the caucasus mountain range. Which is east of the danube river, and someone here was arguing that anything east of the danube is asia. Which means caucasians are asian?



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03 Jul 2015, 10:27 pm

We have Greek Festivals where I live but they aren't called Greek Pride and everyone is welcome. Same with the Czech parties and parades. The biggest festivals of all involve Native Americans but none of their names are divisive. Red Earth is not a name that implies only certain people are welcome. It comes from the fact there's so much red clay in the soil. Names are deliberately chosen to not be divisive.

It's not a matter of omitting words like Greek, Indian, German, Oktoberfest, Fiesta, Celtic, Irish, Czech, black or Gay. St Patrick's Day is not called Irish Pride Day. Cinco De Mayo isn't called Mexican Pride Day. The names have an ethnic flavor but they do not exclude anyone from celebrating. Saint Patrick's Day is known as a holiday all can celebrate regardless of heritage. Cinco De Mayo is quickly becoming a reason to go out and party. Oktoberfest welcomes everyone.

Even Christmas isn't called Christian Pride Day and most people have Christmas trees which have nothing to do with Christos or anything but traditions in Europe that were centered on supernatural winter solstice (seasons) and Yules.

Gay holidays can have names that welcome everyone. Marriage Equality Day, for example, would be about all married people. It's the freedom to be married and it should apply to those who practice plural marriage.

Martin Luther King Jr Day features the name of a man, not a focus on any race.

Black History Month actually does focus on race but it's about learning about those who could be steeped in obscurity due to the civil rights struggles. It gives us more access to who these people are.



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03 Jul 2015, 10:39 pm

And in NYC it's puerto rico day not puerto rican pride.

But for the gay and lesbian communities it's about casting off the shame that we breeders have made them feel. And i get that.

It turns out that there are gay people who are not really on board. I have read opinions from gay people who bemoan the changes that started with the stonewall riot.

But i can understand that a lot of these people are still working out for themselves what it means to be openly gay, and it's normal for a subculture to diverge.

Some day it won't be subculture.



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03 Jul 2015, 10:50 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
And in NYC it's puerto rico day not puerto rican pride.

But for the gay and lesbian communities it's about casting off the shame that we breeders have made them feel. And i get that.

It turns out that there are gay people who are not really on board. I have read opinions from gay people who bemoan the changes that started with the stonewall riot.

But i can understand that a lot of these people are still working out for themselves what it means to be openly gay, and it's normal for a subculture to diverge.

Some day it won't be subculture.



Focus on Marriage Equality Day, which is in June and could be the first Gay Holiday.



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04 Jul 2015, 12:08 am

I'm such a mutt a "White Pride" thing wouldn't fit me. I am, however, human and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. We're all so diverse, and I love that, but I see so many people trying to divide, and those who are mixed tell me they find themselves getting flak from both sides to pick a side, like they can't pick both, especially if they're Mexican + white, or black + white. Mutts end up having no place and people treat them with derision because they have the gall to be two things instead of one.
Kinda like how bi people seem to get flak from both sides because they "can't just pick one." People seem to want to be divided. They want to be special in their own right and don't want to share it with anyone? I'm not sure, it confuses me.

The one thing I do see often is that people really just want to be treated with respect, and that is sorely lacking. If everyone just stopped being a dick to other people, if people started respecting one another, I think things would be better. Right now, it feels like people deemed white can't do anything right, they have to be apologetic and grovel, even if they had nothing to do with slavery because they're from Ireland or the Ukraine. And on the other side, those who identify as white feel attacked, especially when they're told they can't celebrate being white because that's racist.

I don't feel like I identify with being anything but human, really. And autistic, since coming here has felt like I've found my people and made me feel like I'm not actually a freak that needs to change but can't.


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04 Jul 2015, 7:20 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
I'm such a mutt a "White Pride" thing wouldn't fit me. I am, however, human and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. We're all so diverse, and I love that, but I see so many people trying to divide, and those who are mixed tell me they find themselves getting flak from both sides to pick a side, like they can't pick both, especially if they're Mexican + white, or black + white. Mutts end up having no place and people treat them with derision because they have the gall to be two things instead of one.
Kinda like how bi people seem to get flak from both sides because they "can't just pick one." People seem to want to be divided. They want to be special in their own right and don't want to share it with anyone? I'm not sure, it confuses me.

The one thing I do see often is that people really just want to be treated with respect, and that is sorely lacking. If everyone just stopped being a dick to other people, if people started respecting one another, I think things would be better. Right now, it feels like people deemed white can't do anything right, they have to be apologetic and grovel, even if they had nothing to do with slavery because they're from Ireland or the Ukraine. And on the other side, those who identify as white feel attacked, especially when they're told they can't celebrate being white because that's racist.

I don't feel like I identify with being anything but human, really. And autistic, since coming here has felt like I've found my people and made me feel like I'm not actually a freak that needs to change but can't.



I don't feel that vibe and I am caucasian. I see it more as a respect thing since a black politician was killed in a church and since the KKK has widely associated itself with the confederate flag and there's rumors of a conspiracy involving Dylann Roof and others who could still face charges, people are calling for the flag to be removed from the state house in South Carolina. That's the same place Senator Pinckney had an office so is it too much to ask considering what happened and the circumstance? Removing the flag won't change people's hearts. It's more a symbolic act of respect.
It's not apologizing or groveling, is it?

Nascar removed it from their races in hopes of attracting more people and to not face boycotts or similar measures. Why alienate people? Isn't it a better idea to remove barriers and foster good feelings? Isn't that healthiest for everyone's psyches instead of misery and angry, disgruntled people everywhere. America is much more blended these days so it's hardly a shock to see a variety of differences in one place. Everyone should be able to handle it.



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04 Jul 2015, 7:41 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
I'm such a mutt a "White Pride" thing wouldn't fit me. I am, however, human and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. We're all so diverse, and I love that, but I see so many people trying to divide, and those who are mixed tell me they find themselves getting flak from both sides to pick a side, like they can't pick both, especially if they're Mexican + white, or black + white. Mutts end up having no place and people treat them with derision because they have the gall to be two things instead of one.
Kinda like how bi people seem to get flak from both sides because they "can't just pick one." People seem to want to be divided. They want to be special in their own right and don't want to share it with anyone? I'm not sure, it confuses me.

The one thing I do see often is that people really just want to be treated with respect, and that is sorely lacking. If everyone just stopped being a dick to other people, if people started respecting one another, I think things would be better. Right now, it feels like people deemed white can't do anything right, they have to be apologetic and grovel, even if they had nothing to do with slavery because they're from Ireland or the Ukraine. And on the other side, those who identify as white feel attacked, especially when they're told they can't celebrate being white because that's racist.

I don't feel like I identify with being anything but human, really. And autistic, since coming here has felt like I've found my people and made me feel like I'm not actually a freak that needs to change but can't.



I don't feel that vibe and I am caucasian. I see it more as a respect thing since a black politician was killed in a church and since the KKK has widely associated itself with the confederate flag and there's rumors of a conspiracy involving Dylann Roof and others who could still face charges, people are calling for the flag to be removed from the state house in South Carolina. That's the same place Senator Pinckney had an office so is it too much to ask considering what happened and the circumstance? Removing the flag won't change people's hearts. It's more a symbolic act of respect.
It's not apologizing or groveling, is it?

Nascar removed it from their races in hopes of attracting more people and to not face boycotts or similar measures. Why alienate people? Isn't it a better idea to remove barriers and foster good feelings? Isn't that healthiest for everyone's psyches instead of misery and angry, disgruntled people everywhere. America is much more blended these days so it's hardly a shock to see a variety of differences in one place. Everyone should be able to handle it.


I'm kinda confused by your reply? I never mentioned the flag or promotion of racists... more like because of them, I've been seeing more people attacking white people in general (such as how there was a news article with the click-bait title of White Americans Are Biggest Terror Threat in U.S.: Study ) and that causes a backlash on those who don't feel like they've done anything wrong and they feel attacked for no reason and lash out themselves. It causes a circular reaction, an infinite loop of division.

For everyone, the actions of the few do not dictate an entire people or religion, yet I've seen this generalization happen with so many things. Muslims in the US still have problems because of the extremists, Christians get backlash from the extremists, etc etc.

As for the flag, it is the flag of the defeated and too many people are claiming the war had nothing to do with slavery, yet by the states' own admissions, it was indeed about slavery: Declaration of Causes of Seceding States. I'm not sure why the flag was even allowed up, with everything it stands for, or stood for.


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04 Jul 2015, 7:54 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
I'm such a mutt a "White Pride" thing wouldn't fit me. I am, however, human and I'm certainly not ashamed of it. We're all so diverse, and I love that, but I see so many people trying to divide, and those who are mixed tell me they find themselves getting flak from both sides to pick a side, like they can't pick both, especially if they're Mexican + white, or black + white. Mutts end up having no place and people treat them with derision because they have the gall to be two things instead of one.
Kinda like how bi people seem to get flak from both sides because they "can't just pick one." People seem to want to be divided. They want to be special in their own right and don't want to share it with anyone? I'm not sure, it confuses me.

The one thing I do see often is that people really just want to be treated with respect, and that is sorely lacking. If everyone just stopped being a dick to other people, if people started respecting one another, I think things would be better. Right now, it feels like people deemed white can't do anything right, they have to be apologetic and grovel, even if they had nothing to do with slavery because they're from Ireland or the Ukraine. And on the other side, those who identify as white feel attacked, especially when they're told they can't celebrate being white because that's racist.

I don't feel like I identify with being anything but human, really. And autistic, since coming here has felt like I've found my people and made me feel like I'm not actually a freak that needs to change but can't.



I don't feel that vibe and I am caucasian. I see it more as a respect thing since a black politician was killed in a church and since the KKK has widely associated itself with the confederate flag and there's rumors of a conspiracy involving Dylann Roof and others who could still face charges, people are calling for the flag to be removed from the state house in South Carolina. That's the same place Senator Pinckney had an office so is it too much to ask considering what happened and the circumstance? Removing the flag won't change people's hearts. It's more a symbolic act of respect.
It's not apologizing or groveling, is it?

Nascar removed it from their races in hopes of attracting more people and to not face boycotts or similar measures. Why alienate people? Isn't it a better idea to remove barriers and foster good feelings? Isn't that healthiest for everyone's psyches instead of misery and angry, disgruntled people everywhere. America is much more blended these days so it's hardly a shock to see a variety of differences in one place. Everyone should be able to handle it.


I'm kinda confused by your reply? I never mentioned the flag or promotion of racists... more like because of them, I've been seeing more people attacking white people in general (such as how there was a news article with the click-bait title of White Americans Are Biggest Terror Threat in U.S.: Study ) and that causes a backlash on those who don't feel like they've done anything wrong and they feel attacked for no reason and lash out themselves. It causes a circular reaction, an infinite loop of division.

For everyone, the actions of the few do not dictate an entire people or religion, yet I've seen this generalization happen with so many things. Muslims in the US still have problems because of the extremists, Christians get backlash from the extremists, etc etc.

As for the flag, it is the flag of the defeated and too many people are claiming the war had nothing to do with slavery, yet by the states' own admissions, it was indeed about slavery: Declaration of Causes of Seceding States. I'm not sure why the flag was even allowed up, with everything it stands for, or stood for.



The flag is the reason I posted the OP. It's about the usage of divisive methods in our culture. Confederate flags and words like "white pride" are widely believed to be divisive, but are they the only ones? And if they are, why is it they are considered divisive but we cannot say the same about similar? Is it only whites that can be divisive, in other words? In what ways do we exclude one another? My belief is that all three categories in my topic are ways we practice exclusion, even if we only admit to "white pride" being divisive. This type of language separates instead of bringing together in acceptance of differences.

Furthermore, what's divisive about the words "white pride?" Is it the word white, the word pride, or just the types of folks who have latched onto the label? All three?



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04 Jul 2015, 8:23 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
...If you are trying to make everyone feel welcome, you would need to shun names like White Pride, Black Pride or anything that separates people from one another so one group doesn't feel welcome.

In that case, your Human Pride example would make animal lovers feel excluded because their animals friends aren't included by description. Then there are the nature lovers who might feel excluded because trees, canyons and rivers aren't generally included in the description of Human Pride. I have watched how individuals become irritated when their LGBT or disabled family members and friends aren't included explicitly at certain movement events; so, they might feel excluded by extension. And, it goes on.

So, maybe the ideal would be a Human Pride movement, but I suspect people who feel the need to do so will start their own spin-off pride movements for various individualized reasons. I don't see such behavior as exclusive per se, just differently inclusive when others aren't so. This is the difference between populism and pluralism.

With apologies to King, maybe we should "...have a dream that one day [...] little Black Pride Movements will be able to join hands with little White Pride Movements as sisters and brothers."


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04 Jul 2015, 8:34 am

AspieUtah wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
...If you are trying to make everyone feel welcome, you would need to shun names like White Pride, Black Pride or anything that separates people from one another so one group doesn't feel welcome.

In that case, your Human Pride example would make animal lovers feel excluded because their animals friends aren't included by description. Then there are the nature lovers who might feel excluded because trees, canyons and rivers aren't generally included in the description of Human Pride. I have watched how individuals become irritated when their LGBT or disabled family members and friends aren't included explicitly at certain movement events; so, they might feel excluded by extension. And, it goes on.

So, maybe the ideal would be a Human Pride movement, but I suspect people who feel the need to do so will start their own spin-off pride movements for various individualized reasons. I don't see such behavior as exclusive per se, just differently inclusive when others aren't so. This is the difference between populism and pluralism.

With apologies to King, maybe we should "...have a dream that one day [...] little Black Pride Movements will be able to join hands with little White Pride Movements as sisters and brothers."



So you believe a human pride movement will inadvertently cause a backlash against animals? I find that hard to believe since animals are mostly accepted by everyone and they have laws that protect them. It's humans turning on other humans at the moment. Everyday it's something. Sometimes, it's racism, other times, just violence for the sake of violence. When there's cases of animal mistreatment the public outcry is formidable and everyday more shelters are becoming "no kill." So the idea of human pride having a negative effect on animals doesn't seem plausible.

Human Pride would encourage the best in humanity and to help us see each other as humans like ourselves therefore worthy of rights.



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04 Jul 2015, 8:36 am

Saying "White pride is now being scrutinized" is ridiculous. 'White pride' was always considered bogus.

The phrase "White pride" was rarely ever uttered by anyone outside of the KKK, and was ALWAYS regarded as a codeword for racism, and was never taken seriously by any American of any skin color outside of the KKK.

Whites are both the majority of country, and its ruling group, so it makes no sense to make a cause out of "White pride" as distinct from say: general purpose "American pride". Its the marginalized groups that need extra doses of pride. The ruling mainstream group is already overdosing on pride.

Imagine if someone proposed a "neurotypical pride day". Even neurotypicals would laugh ( if they even knew what NT meant- the term isnt even used much outside of autism spectrum websites). But an 'autism pride day' would seem like a respectable cause.



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04 Jul 2015, 8:46 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
So you believe a human pride movement will inadvertently cause a backlash against animals...?

No. I don't believe any social movement is a bad thing. I don't believe that they cause any backlashes. To suggest that they do is based in what evidence?


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04 Jul 2015, 8:48 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
The flag is the reason I posted the OP. It's about the usage of divisive methods in our culture. Confederate flags and words like "white pride" are widely believed to be divisive, but are they the only ones? And if they are, why is it they are considered divisive but we cannot say the same about similar? Is it only whites that can be divisive, in other words? In what ways do we exclude one another? My belief is that all three categories in my topic are ways we practice exclusion, even if we only admit to "white pride" being divisive. This type of language separates instead of bringing together in acceptance of differences.

Furthermore, what's divisive about the words "white pride?" Is it the word white, the word pride, or just the types of folks who have latched onto the label? All three?


Ah. No, I don't believe they are the only ones. But considering history, that's why White Pride is considered bad - because racist people used it most. It's like the swastika. Many different cultures and religions use it, but because of the Germans in WWII, even things that resemble a swastika are frowned upon (actually got yelled at, and blocked, by someone when I mentioned that many different people use it for good purposes, like the Finnish air force)

Society places a lot of meaning on certain words and phrases. Like here in the US, the word "fa***t" is really bad but in the UK, it means something completely different and is fine to use. The connotations related to "white pride" are bad, yet every other kind of pride is fine even though bad things have been done in their name... I don't like things that are uneven. I like things to be equal and not lopsided. It doesn't make sense at all to me when things are allowed for one group but not another.


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04 Jul 2015, 8:50 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Saying "White pride is now being scrutinized" is ridiculous. 'White pride' was always considered bogus.

The phrase "White pride" was rarely ever uttered by anyone outside of the KKK, and was ALWAYS regarded as a codeword for racism, and was never taken seriously by any American of any skin color outside of the KKK.

Whites are both the majority of country, and its ruling group, so it makes no sense to make a cause out of "White pride" as distinct from say: general purpose "American pride". Its the marginalized groups that need extra doses of pride. The ruling mainstream group is already overdosing on pride.

Imagine if someone proposed a "neurotypical pride day". Even neurotypicals would laugh ( if they even knew what NT meant- the term isnt even used much outside of autism spectrum websites). But an 'autism pride day' would seem like a respectable cause.

So, only politically correct social groups are capable or deserving of pride? Your statements remind me of what I was told by all sides for decades as I worked for LGBT Pride. Even some LGBT individuals bought into that tripe. Thankfully few do now, thank you very much.


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04 Jul 2015, 8:53 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
...considering history, that's why White Pride is considered bad - because racist people used it most....

Are non-white individuals ever capable of racism? If so, your logic falls apart.


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04 Jul 2015, 9:07 am

kamiyu910 wrote:
I've gotten serious backlash for posting this line of thought on Facebook (lost like 20+ "friends")

But I agree. It only serves to divide. If one can't do something, then why should others be able to? If one can, why not others? Isn't this sort of segregation what got us here in the first place?

People don't want equality, they just want the power to shift. They want revenge/vengeance, they want to make those who they think cause suffering to suffer. And if someone is in any sort of societal power position, they are the enemy, even if they really aren't in any position of power.

And me wanting everyone to be treated equally is racist, homophobic, and sexist.


No. The problem here is that you are blind to the fact that people aren't being treated equally. The reason white pride is seen as objectionable by many is because society is dominated by whites, particularly rich, white, males.

By default, everyday is white pride day.


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