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kraftiekortie
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06 Jul 2015, 9:31 am

If the descendants of people captured in (primarily) West Africa knew exactly the ethnic group of their ancestors, there would occur the same "Balkanization."



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06 Jul 2015, 9:34 am

I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with having pride and honoring your ancestors and the accomplishments of your people I guess, I think it makes total sense for black people to be proud of Barack Obama for example but the problem here in lies when people take this and use it to elevate themselves over other people. White pride doesn't make much sense since white people aren't some monolithic grouping, that's the most insulting thing when people bring up white privilege as if being a member of the white race alone automatically puts me on the same level of the the Bush or Kennedy families. There is far more in between me and them than there is any normal person of color that lives in the same real world we all have to live in but I'm still the oppressor?

People need to understand that race is used to divide us, racial divisions serve no purpose but to keep us focused on each other rather than the criminals that are screwing us both at the same time.



LoveNotHate
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06 Jul 2015, 9:36 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


The racist white pride is firstmost about *tribalism* ("protecting one's group").

It seems like something we would expect of humans.

It is actually suprising that countries like the US would actually turn their country over to people of another race. My Indian coworkers (from India) were laughing really hard and couldn't believe it that white people would actually let themselves become a minority in their own country (based on the census report a few years ago).



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06 Jul 2015, 9:45 am

AspieUtah wrote:
How would Black Pride be similarly balkanized? After all, if White Pride shouldn't exist because its reference to a singular race rather than its component national constituencies, shouldn't the same, equal, balkanization of Black Pride's reference to a singular race be performed, thereby turning it into South African Pride or Moroccan Pride, as well?


Black Pride isn't anti-not-black (although for a brief time in the 1960's some segments were). It doesn't pose the danger of creating the black equivalent of Dylan Roof the way White Pride does.

White Pride was never balkanized. It isn't that there used to be White Pride and then that got split up into these different groups of Italian Pride, Irish Pride etc. All white people who came to the U.S. were members of groups (Puritans,French etc.) and pulling back from that and applying the catch-all term "white" was in opposition to other races. Irish Pride, Italian Pride etc. isn't a balkanization of White Pride. It's a continuation of the original thread brought here by people now called white Americans.

The only reason Black Pride exists in the first place instead of a bunch of mini-celebrations for different places of origins is because of slavery. Slavery stripped black people of their ethnic heritage (or at least tried to not tie it to one specific location). More recent black immigrants have heritage festivals that are akin to St.Patricks Day parades and other festivals white people had. It could have all been like this but for slavery. Black Pride is a direct response to the legacy of slavery. As a nation we have to deal with that and heal it. Black Pride is a part of that. If the U.S. can last long enough to truly heal from that then Black Pride will become an interesting historical footnote. But we aren't anywhere near that.



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06 Jul 2015, 1:15 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
And really, if your superiority is on the basis of having impunity to sh*t on people, your culture is pretty sh*tty.

The old southern white guys are all about a concept of honor where people are deferential toward you because you said so.

Which, frankly, is kinda weak, hollow, and worthless.

Do you enjoy stereotyping people all the time?!?


No, only when it comes to traditionalist white southerners who yearn for the days of jim crow.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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06 Jul 2015, 1:29 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
And really, if your superiority is on the basis of having impunity to sh*t on people, your culture is pretty sh*tty.

The old southern white guys are all about a concept of honor where people are deferential toward you because you said so.

Which, frankly, is kinda weak, hollow, and worthless.

Do you enjoy stereotyping people all the time?!?


No, only when it comes to traditionalist white southerners who yearn for the days of jim crow.



I yearn for the day people see humans instead of appearance, culture, ethnicity, bank account balance, gender, or sexuality.



naturalplastic
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06 Jul 2015, 1:37 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
'White pride' was always considered bogus.


I agree with what you said. However, "white pride" does exist today. Here are some ...

-On "Columbus Day" there is an Italian pride march to honor Columbus.
-On "Columbus Day" there there is a Hispanic pride march to honor Columbus.
-"Polish American day".
-"National Italian America Month" in October.
-"National Hispanic American Month" Sept 15 to Oct 15 (whites can have Hispanic ancestry)
-"National Irish-American Heritage month" in March.
- October 6: German-American Day
- October 9: Leif Erikson Day
- May: Jewish American Heritage Month
...
...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... ive_months
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_o ... oclamation


Pride by Whites in being some sub division of the White race is not as bogus. Its more positive in nature (its "honor to be Irish" is not the same thing as "its a dishoner to not be Irish").And that kind of pride is more akin to 'Black pride' than to any "White pride" movement because it was largely born from having to respond to past oppression-oppression of newly arrived Whites by other Whites ( the folks already here for a while) as successive waves of European immigrants came to America.



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06 Jul 2015, 1:42 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
And really, if your superiority is on the basis of having impunity to sh*t on people, your culture is pretty sh*tty.

The old southern white guys are all about a concept of honor where people are deferential toward you because you said so.

Which, frankly, is kinda weak, hollow, and worthless.

Do you enjoy stereotyping people all the time?!?


No, only when it comes to traditionalist white southerners who yearn for the days of jim crow.



I yearn for the day people see humans instead of appearance, culture, ethnicity, bank account balance, gender, or sexuality.


Some cultures only want to see appearance, culture, and ethnicity.

I oppose and mock those cultures.



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06 Jul 2015, 2:09 pm

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


The racist white pride is firstmost about *tribalism* ("protecting one's group").

It seems like something we would expect of humans.

It is actually suprising that countries like the US would actually turn their country over to people of another race. My Indian coworkers (from India) were laughing really hard and couldn't believe it that white people would actually let themselves become a minority in their own country (based on the census report a few years ago).


Well...
Number one: there isn't much you can do to keep whites from becoming the minority in our culture that teaches tolerance and acceptance, save f*ck like bunnies to make more white people.
Number two: The only way to ensure a white majority without unrealistic reproduction schemes at this point is to cast away the tolerance and acceptance that we Americans are so proud of, thus becoming something we Americans are not.
Number three: What you friend from India doesn't seem to grasp is that being an American in not incumbent on white skin, as we are proud of our mutt-dom; that is, we are proud that Americans are from everywhere in the world. So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


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06 Jul 2015, 2:33 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Number three: What you friend from India doesn't seem to grasp is that being an American in not incumbent on white skin, as we are proud of our mutt-dom; that is, we are proud that Americans are from everywhere in the world. So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


:cheers:

(I wanted to salute this bit but the saluting smiley has gone missing, even in the 'more smilies' section.)

That's the true American spirit. We are a mish mash of immigrants, thus all the ethnic heritage celebrations. Many people like Tiger Woods for his golf skills but I like him for coining the term 'Cablinasian'. It pays tribute to mutt-dom. 'American' isn't a skin color. It's a set of shared national values.

The absolute strongest value that seems to run through the U.S from the very beginning and seems almost unique in the world is that this is the country where you write your own script. This country was founded on cutting ties with the past and we've made creating your own future, regardless of your past, the American Dream. That's what the American Dream really is. It isn't a particular lifestyle, even though it frequently gets described that way. It's the concept that the future is what you make it. That (to me) is the 'pursuit of happiness' part of 'life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness' in the Declaration of Independence.



blauSamstag
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06 Jul 2015, 2:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


The racist white pride is firstmost about *tribalism* ("protecting one's group").

It seems like something we would expect of humans.

It is actually suprising that countries like the US would actually turn their country over to people of another race. My Indian coworkers (from India) were laughing really hard and couldn't believe it that white people would actually let themselves become a minority in their own country (based on the census report a few years ago).


Well...
Number one: there isn't much you can do to keep whites from becoming the minority in our culture that teaches tolerance and acceptance, save f*ck like bunnies to make more white people.
Number two: The only way to ensure a white majority without unrealistic reproduction schemes at this point is to cast away the tolerance and acceptance that we Americans are so proud of, thus becoming something we Americans are not.
Number three: What you friend from India doesn't seem to grasp is that being an American in not incumbent on white skin, as we are proud of our mutt-dom; that is, we are proud that Americans are from everywhere in the world. So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


It's more than naive to propose that when white folk are 49% of the population, this means that they are in the minority.

Unless as a white person you see it in terms of "my people" and "you people".

It will be far longer before any single group outnumbers whites.



aghogday
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06 Jul 2015, 2:53 pm

The human tribal instinct is innate; and not going away.

Humans discriminating against differences in human appearance
and behavior is instinctual as well; and not going away.

This is what makes sports so great; as humans can transfer
that tribal instinct into a game; instead of innate and
cultural differences; in cathartic human 'medicinal'
affect and effect. Fighting wars has a similar effect.

Culture and human cognition is the great potential equalizer
over human innate instinct and intuition to
discriminate with 'the different'
and bond 'with same'.

The cultural promotion of Unity for all is a good
thing to promote getting along in social cooperation.

But mileage varies, depending on individuals; some folks are
damaged goods, and need bandaging up from
the innate and environmental wounds
of historical discrimination.

IN other words, there is no one answer;
as always there are shades of black
and white and hues of colors
in innate and environmentally
produced human actions
and consequences;
where the
answers
are more
ART in human
emotionalism
than science in
logic
only
answers.

There is a full barometer of
human that changes constantly
as a society; no one can fully
predict where the barometric
pressure of human
discrimination,
and suffering
will move
to next; but yeah,
there is most definitely
an art for moderating it
and fixing it that has no limits..:)

Sports are better than wars; so yay
NFL; even if I never watch sports
at all. Vicarious activities are not
a life for
me. I am
the director
producer and actor
of my own play of life;
And if I am gonna celebrate someone
like me; it will be a one pony show..;)



I choose the third and BEST option
for human unity; DANCE; AND FOR
ME a dance that is
only solo
as me
in Fred 'pride';
INSPIRING others
along the way to join
hands and dance too
or alone together ALLONE
with Nature as ONE FORCE OF
POSITIVE ENERGY
AKA
UNCONDITIONAL
TOUGH
LOVE;
BREAKING barriers
along
a way..:)

And for detail thinkers;
barriers like 230LB Law
Enforcement looking dudes
ballet dancing; 55 year-old
dudes dancing in Super-Walmart
like this; along with 21 year-old
gorgeous females every Thursday
Night; and documenting the whole
dam thing, along the way, to prove
just how well dance works for
making human unification
a reality
in
now.

One person CAN MAKE
A DIFFERENCE;
I PROVE that in
empirical results
everyday of
dancing
life;
FOR ME there
are no limits in
ART of Human Being;
Solo; but still LOTS OF
INTERCONNECTING
HUMAN FUN!..:)


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06 Jul 2015, 4:51 pm

Janissy wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Number three: What you friend from India doesn't seem to grasp is that being an American in not incumbent on white skin, as we are proud of our mutt-dom; that is, we are proud that Americans are from everywhere in the world. So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


:cheers:

(I wanted to salute this bit but the saluting smiley has gone missing, even in the 'more smilies' section.)

That's the true American spirit. We are a mish mash of immigrants, thus all the ethnic heritage celebrations. Many people like Tiger Woods for his golf skills but I like him for coining the term 'Cablinasian'. It pays tribute to mutt-dom. 'American' isn't a skin color. It's a set of shared national values.

The absolute strongest value that seems to run through the U.S from the very beginning and seems almost unique in the world is that this is the country where you write your own script. This country was founded on cutting ties with the past and we've made creating your own future, regardless of your past, the American Dream. That's what the American Dream really is. It isn't a particular lifestyle, even though it frequently gets described that way. It's the concept that the future is what you make it. That (to me) is the 'pursuit of happiness' part of 'life,liberty and the pursuit of happiness' in the Declaration of Independence.


Thank you! 8)


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06 Jul 2015, 4:56 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Janissy wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
White Pride is seen as divisionary. So how does this apply to all the other forms of pride? Is it only White Pride that is divisionary while all the others aren't? Whenever someone talks about White Pride or promotes this, they get called racist. It's thought of as racist ideology. So how do you reconcile this? And why is it we cannot be proud of our humanity. Humanism and Humanity as a collective is what gets shamed the most at the moment. We focus on how we are different and then say humanism is an unreliable standard because it's about being a human and focuses on what we have in common.

I am going to take the initiative and say I am proud to be human.

The White Pride movement sets itself in opposition (sometimes literally violent opposition) to other races. But when white people celebrate pride in specific white cultures, rather than generic "white", there is no problem. St. Patrick's Day parades, Greek Festival, an Italian flag as a bumper sticker etc. It's all good because none of it is specifically anti-other-race.

Black people would do the same thing if slavery hadn't lumped them all together. More recent black immigrants do just that with Caribbean Festival and such. The problem isn't white people celebrating heritage. There is probably a Polish/Irish/Italian/Hungarian/Swedish etc. festival that happening soon within the state lines of whatever U.S, state you happen to be in. But none of those heritage celebrations is specifically anti-non-white the way White Pride is. That's why White Pride is divisive but Irish (or whichever) pride is not.

What of white people who have no idea of their ethic background or who don't care and identify just as American? Then hit all the "white" festivals and/or go to a 4th of July celebration (assume they did on Saturday). But White Pride specified as such without breaking it down by pre-American heritage comes with a lot of violent baggage.

How would Black Pride be similarly balkanized? After all, if White Pride shouldn't exist because its reference to a singular race rather than its component national constituencies, shouldn't the same, equal, balkanization of Black Pride's reference to a singular race be performed, thereby turning it into South African Pride or Moroccan Pride, as well?


Dont understand why you're asking Blacks to "Balkanize", but if you're going to tell them what to do at least get your analogies right.

The African analog to "Irish pride", or "Latvian pride", would not be "South African pride".

It would be "Xhosa pride", or "Ashanti pride", or "Hausa pride" because those are actual ethnic groups in Africa.

Also: the American slave trade did not draw upon either the Arab north of Africa, nor the extreme southern cape of Africa. So very few American Blacks have ancestry from either Morocco or from what is now South Africa either. The American slave trade drew mostly upon sub saharan west africa, the Congo, Angola, and Mozambique.



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06 Jul 2015, 5:45 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Janissy wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
White Pride is seen as divisionary. So how does this apply to all the other forms of pride? Is it only White Pride that is divisionary while all the others aren't? Whenever someone talks about White Pride or promotes this, they get called racist. It's thought of as racist ideology. So how do you reconcile this? And why is it we cannot be proud of our humanity. Humanism and Humanity as a collective is what gets shamed the most at the moment. We focus on how we are different and then say humanism is an unreliable standard because it's about being a human and focuses on what we have in common.

I am going to take the initiative and say I am proud to be human.

The White Pride movement sets itself in opposition (sometimes literally violent opposition) to other races. But when white people celebrate pride in specific white cultures, rather than generic "white", there is no problem. St. Patrick's Day parades, Greek Festival, an Italian flag as a bumper sticker etc. It's all good because none of it is specifically anti-other-race.

Black people would do the same thing if slavery hadn't lumped them all together. More recent black immigrants do just that with Caribbean Festival and such. The problem isn't white people celebrating heritage. There is probably a Polish/Irish/Italian/Hungarian/Swedish etc. festival that happening soon within the state lines of whatever U.S, state you happen to be in. But none of those heritage celebrations is specifically anti-non-white the way White Pride is. That's why White Pride is divisive but Irish (or whichever) pride is not.

What of white people who have no idea of their ethic background or who don't care and identify just as American? Then hit all the "white" festivals and/or go to a 4th of July celebration (assume they did on Saturday). But White Pride specified as such without breaking it down by pre-American heritage comes with a lot of violent baggage.

How would Black Pride be similarly balkanized? After all, if White Pride shouldn't exist because its reference to a singular race rather than its component national constituencies, shouldn't the same, equal, balkanization of Black Pride's reference to a singular race be performed, thereby turning it into South African Pride or Moroccan Pride, as well?

Dont understand why you're asking Blacks to "Balkanize"....

I didn't.


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07 Jul 2015, 7:04 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


Off of the top of my head ....

1. It's not about patriotism. People generally want to "live among their own kind". That is why we have "white flight" and "black flight". This is how cities become 90%+ of one race.

2. People not knowing English is such a huge problem that American companies cater to Spanish speakers when you call them. ("Press '1' for English).

3. When white people turn on their tv or watch movies, they want to see people like them. That is why tv shows and movies mostly have white people.

4. They expect "white history" in the classroom, not lecture that the American Indian people were actually good and somehow white people are evil because they killed them.

" Teachers of a controversial Mexican-American studies program outlawed by the Arizona legislature are pressing to spread similar programs across the country."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/1 ... 58770.html

Hey, I thought we were all Americans here? Why are Americans wanting the history of Mexico taught in school curriculum.

5. Lastly, and too my original point, I think people laugh because it seems on the surface to be pathetic to let others overrun your country. It would never happen in other countries, so to them it seems odd.

However, all this being said, whites are not actually becoming a minority. They are only becoming a minority if you don't count the white people of Hispanic origin as white. The political people group white Hispanics (people from Spain included) as non-white.



Last edited by LoveNotHate on 07 Jul 2015, 7:13 am, edited 1 time in total.