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naturalplastic
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07 Jul 2015, 7:09 am

AspieUtah wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Janissy wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
White Pride is seen as divisionary. So how does this apply to all the other forms of pride? Is it only White Pride that is divisionary while all the others aren't? Whenever someone talks about White Pride or promotes this, they get called racist. It's thought of as racist ideology. So how do you reconcile this? And why is it we cannot be proud of our humanity. Humanism and Humanity as a collective is what gets shamed the most at the moment. We focus on how we are different and then say humanism is an unreliable standard because it's about being a human and focuses on what we have in common.

I am going to take the initiative and say I am proud to be human.

The White Pride movement sets itself in opposition (sometimes literally violent opposition) to other races. But when white people celebrate pride in specific white cultures, rather than generic "white", there is no problem. St. Patrick's Day parades, Greek Festival, an Italian flag as a bumper sticker etc. It's all good because none of it is specifically anti-other-race.

Black people would do the same thing if slavery hadn't lumped them all together. More recent black immigrants do just that with Caribbean Festival and such. The problem isn't white people celebrating heritage. There is probably a Polish/Irish/Italian/Hungarian/Swedish etc. festival that happening soon within the state lines of whatever U.S, state you happen to be in. But none of those heritage celebrations is specifically anti-non-white the way White Pride is. That's why White Pride is divisive but Irish (or whichever) pride is not.

What of white people who have no idea of their ethic background or who don't care and identify just as American? Then hit all the "white" festivals and/or go to a 4th of July celebration (assume they did on Saturday). But White Pride specified as such without breaking it down by pre-American heritage comes with a lot of violent baggage.

How would Black Pride be similarly balkanized? After all, if White Pride shouldn't exist because its reference to a singular race rather than its component national constituencies, shouldn't the same, equal, balkanization of Black Pride's reference to a singular race be performed, thereby turning it into South African Pride or Moroccan Pride, as well?

Dont understand why you're asking Blacks to "Balkanize"....

I didn't.


Exactly!

You failed to make ANY deciferable point.



AspieUtah
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07 Jul 2015, 8:42 am

naturalplastic wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Janissy wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
White Pride is seen as divisionary. So how does this apply to all the other forms of pride? Is it only White Pride that is divisionary while all the others aren't? Whenever someone talks about White Pride or promotes this, they get called racist. It's thought of as racist ideology. So how do you reconcile this? And why is it we cannot be proud of our humanity. Humanism and Humanity as a collective is what gets shamed the most at the moment. We focus on how we are different and then say humanism is an unreliable standard because it's about being a human and focuses on what we have in common.

I am going to take the initiative and say I am proud to be human.

The White Pride movement sets itself in opposition (sometimes literally violent opposition) to other races. But when white people celebrate pride in specific white cultures, rather than generic "white", there is no problem. St. Patrick's Day parades, Greek Festival, an Italian flag as a bumper sticker etc. It's all good because none of it is specifically anti-other-race.

Black people would do the same thing if slavery hadn't lumped them all together. More recent black immigrants do just that with Caribbean Festival and such. The problem isn't white people celebrating heritage. There is probably a Polish/Irish/Italian/Hungarian/Swedish etc. festival that happening soon within the state lines of whatever U.S, state you happen to be in. But none of those heritage celebrations is specifically anti-non-white the way White Pride is. That's why White Pride is divisive but Irish (or whichever) pride is not.

What of white people who have no idea of their ethic background or who don't care and identify just as American? Then hit all the "white" festivals and/or go to a 4th of July celebration (assume they did on Saturday). But White Pride specified as such without breaking it down by pre-American heritage comes with a lot of violent baggage.

How would Black Pride be similarly balkanized? After all, if White Pride shouldn't exist because its reference to a singular race rather than its component national constituencies, shouldn't the same, equal, balkanization of Black Pride's reference to a singular race be performed, thereby turning it into South African Pride or Moroccan Pride, as well?

Dont understand why you're asking Blacks to "Balkanize"....

I didn't.

Exactly!

You failed to make ANY deciferable point.

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07 Jul 2015, 10:24 am

LoveNotHate wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
So what if America stops being a majority white country? We're all Americans, regardless of what color our outsides are.


Off of the top of my head ....

1. It's not about patriotism. People generally want to "live among their own kind". That is why we have "white flight" and "black flight". This is how cities become 90%+ of one race.

2. People not knowing English is such a huge problem that American companies cater to Spanish speakers when you call them. ("Press '1' for English).

3. When white people turn on their tv or watch movies, they want to see people like them. That is why tv shows and movies mostly have white people.

4. They expect "white history" in the classroom, not lecture that the American Indian people were actually good and somehow white people are evil because they killed them.

" Teachers of a controversial Mexican-American studies program outlawed by the Arizona legislature are pressing to spread similar programs across the country."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/1 ... 58770.html

Hey, I thought we were all Americans here? Why are Americans wanting the history of Mexico taught in school curriculum.

5. Lastly, and too my original point, I think people laugh because it seems on the surface to be pathetic to let others overrun your country. It would never happen in other countries, so to them it seems odd.

However, all this being said, whites are not actually becoming a minority. They are only becoming a minority if you don't count the white people of Hispanic origin as white. The political people group white Hispanics (people from Spain included) as non-white.


In response-

1) That's tribalism. White flight is hardly a good thing. We Americans need to learn to walk the talk, and stop being afraid of the perceived "other."
2) As a matter of fact, I would prefer that all Americans speak English. But that being said, modern Latino Americans and immigrants are hardly the first group not to speak English as their first language. In the age of immigration during the 19th and early 20th centuries, there was a cacophony of different languages spoken in America, sometimes by people who lived their whole lives without mastering English. But guess what - - their descendants all became English speakers. This hysteria that Spanish is going to be the end of our country is nothing but natavist nonsense.
3) I have three words in answer to that: The Cosby Show. Long before Bill Cosby self-destructed with his rape scandals, his show had been the number one hit with all Americans, regardless of color.
4) History shouldn't be about making one side feel good, as opposed to the other; rather it should be only about the facts. And as far as the controversy in Arizona is concerned - - if it was just a matter of teaching the history of Mexico, as opposed to that of the USA, I'd agree. But it's a known fact that the people bitching about classes about Latino Americans are known natavists and racists, and are hardly to be trusted.
5) Again, we are unlike any other country, in that our national identity is not based on a tribe or religion, but on a set of ideals. And those ideals must include everyone. It's again a matter of Americans willing to walk the talk about America being about tolerance, equality, and pluralism.


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08 Jul 2015, 4:14 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Saying "White pride is now being scrutinized" is ridiculous. 'White pride' was always considered bogus.
The phrase "White pride" was rarely ever uttered by anyone outside of the KKK, and was ALWAYS regarded as a codeword for racism, and was never taken seriously by any American of any skin color outside of the KKK.
Whites are both the majority of country, and its ruling group, so it makes no sense to make a cause out of "White pride" as distinct from say: general purpose "American pride". Its the marginalized groups that need extra doses of pride. The ruling mainstream group is already overdosing on pride.
Imagine if someone proposed a "neurotypical pride day". Even neurotypicals would laugh ( if they even knew what NT meant- the term isnt even used much outside of autism spectrum websites). But an 'autism pride day' would seem like a respectable cause.

GoonSquad wrote:
kamiyu910 wrote:
I've gotten serious backlash for posting this line of thought on Facebook (lost like 20+ "friends")
But I agree. It only serves to divide. If one can't do something, then why should others be able to? If one can, why not others? Isn't this sort of segregation what got us here in the first place?
People don't want equality, they just want the power to shift. They want revenge/vengeance, they want to make those who they think cause suffering to suffer. And if someone is in any sort of societal power position, they are the enemy, even if they really aren't in any position of power.

And me wanting everyone to be treated equally is racist, homophobic, and sexist.

No. The problem here is that you are blind to the fact that people aren't being treated equally. The reason white pride is seen as objectionable by many is because society is dominated by whites, particularly rich, white, males.
By default, everyday is white pride day.


People who say pride is ok for this or that group but not for Whites are just anti-White. All their talk about 'oppressed groups' is just window-dressing.

Of course, there is a difference between those who know they're talking BS and those dupes who are just repeating what they've heard on the TV or in their sociology classes. It's not always easy to tell who is who.



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08 Jul 2015, 4:17 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Black and gay pride is all about people who in the past have been pressed into second class citizenship, if not out and out pariahs, and now simply want to express how they are no longer going to take a back seat in the eyes of society, or the eyes of the law. Whereas white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


On the other hand, anti-Whitism is a reactionary movement attractive to anti-White whiteskins like you who imagine that sh*tting on other Whites is going to win them brownie points.

Seriously, almost every post you make on this forum is just some variant on "look at me everybody, I may be white, but I really care about oppressed groups, so I'm not like those bad whites over there!"

I suppose this goes hand in hand with being a Christian doesn't it? Christians like to imagine that they're so superior to those 'heathens over there' because they believe in some BS narrative and care so, so much about all the oppressed people in the world.



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08 Jul 2015, 4:35 pm

Rollo wrote:
People who say pride is ok for this or that group but not for Whites are just anti-White....

It is the very definition of discrimination and racism.


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08 Jul 2015, 4:54 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
Rollo wrote:
People who say pride is ok for this or that group but not for Whites are just anti-White....

It is the very definition of discrimination and racism.


People say white pride is not ok usually because they associate that phrase with groups like the KKK and the aryan nation who claim white pride in the guise of hatred toward other groups.



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08 Jul 2015, 5:06 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Rollo wrote:
People who say pride is ok for this or that group but not for Whites are just anti-White....

It is the very definition of discrimination and racism.

People say white pride is not ok usually because they associate that phrase with groups like the KKK and the aryan nation who claim white pride in the guise of hatred toward other groups.

Yes, they do. But, the same could be (and often is) said about other pride movements.


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08 Jul 2015, 7:08 pm

Rollo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Black and gay pride is all about people who in the past have been pressed into second class citizenship, if not out and out pariahs, and now simply want to express how they are no longer going to take a back seat in the eyes of society, or the eyes of the law. Whereas white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


On the other hand, anti-Whitism is a reactionary movement attractive to anti-White whiteskins like you who imagine that sh*tting on other Whites is going to win them brownie points.

Seriously, almost every post you make on this forum is just some variant on "look at me everybody, I may be white, but I really care about oppressed groups, so I'm not like those bad whites over there!"

I suppose this goes hand in hand with being a Christian doesn't it? Christians like to imagine that they're so superior to those 'heathens over there' because they believe in some BS narrative and care so, so much about all the oppressed people in the world.


Well, let's see... I wrote a post for the "What movies have you seen recently" thread, in which I wrote about the movie Maggie, which I had just seen on DVD. I'm pretty certain I didn't write anything about race. :P
But seriously, there's nothing to ashamed of being anti-racist. There's nothing to be ashamed of speaking out against bigotry, especially when it's coming from members of my own ethnic group.
And for the record, there's a huge difference between feeling pride in your ethnic roots, which is largely German in my case, and the white pride movement, which was formed as a reaction against the extension of civil rights to non-Caucasians.


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08 Jul 2015, 8:34 pm

Rollo wrote:
I suppose this goes hand in hand with being a Christian doesn't it? Christians like to imagine that they're so superior to those 'heathens over there' because they believe in some BS narrative and care so, so much about all the oppressed people in the world.

What? I am a Christian and I don't feel superior to anyone, infact I often feel inferior to most people (not depending on my Christianity). These people you are talking about are called bullies, and are present in every group be it Christians, Atheists, Muslims or whatever and they will pick on you because you are a Christian, an Atheist, a Muslim or whatever. It's very frustrating to be picked on all the time for no reason...



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08 Jul 2015, 8:45 pm

Rollo wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Black and gay pride is all about people who in the past have been pressed into second class citizenship, if not out and out pariahs, and now simply want to express how they are no longer going to take a back seat in the eyes of society, or the eyes of the law. Whereas white pride is a reactionary movement by racist whites, who imagine themselves as victims now that they can no longer sh*t on other groups with impunity.


On the other hand, anti-Whitism is a reactionary movement attractive to anti-White whiteskins like you who imagine that sh*tting on other Whites is going to win them brownie points.

Seriously, almost every post you make on this forum is just some variant on "look at me everybody, I may be white, but I really care about oppressed groups, so I'm not like those bad whites over there!"

I suppose this goes hand in hand with being a Christian doesn't it? Christians like to imagine that they're so superior to those 'heathens over there' because they believe in some BS narrative and care so, so much about all the oppressed people in the world.


It sounds like you're kafkatrapping, and stereotyping in a rather bad way. Reminds me of the SJWs on Tumblr. No white christian male can do anything right in their eyes. If they try to be anti-racist, they're trying to say, as you put it, "look at me." But if they stay quiet, they're racist. *shrug*


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08 Jul 2015, 11:02 pm

AspieUtah wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
AspieUtah wrote:
Rollo wrote:
People who say pride is ok for this or that group but not for Whites are just anti-White....

It is the very definition of discrimination and racism.

People say white pride is not ok usually because they associate that phrase with groups like the KKK and the aryan nation who claim white pride in the guise of hatred toward other groups.

Yes, they do. But, the same could be (and often is) said about other pride movements.


The Nation of Islam could be honestly described as a hate group. Certainly at some points in their history. Why else would they kick out Malcolm X for saying that white people aren't the devil?

The National Association for the Advancement of Colored People could not honestly be described as a hate group.

IMHO the SPLC actually does have a pretty good handle on the issue.



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08 Jul 2015, 11:16 pm

The untenable situation is that white people are being forced to give up their culture and racial identity while minorities have there's celebrated and protected. I don't believe in multiculturalism, I think it is just segregation and that the melting pot is part of what made America great. When you move to America you are leaving behind your old country and culture, you should become an American first and assimilate. The fact is that American culture and society will always be dominated by Europeans to a certain degree because Europeans are by far the largest group, there isn't anything wrong with that as Americans are the most open and least racist people in the world. American culture has built the most powerful superpower in history and got us to the moon, immigration should be treated are an honor not an entitlement because I don't care what anybody tells you not every immigrant is a net positive for the country and it is humanitarian immigration policy. If you love your home country and culture more than you love America then don't bother leaving in the first place, don't come here if all you want is entitlements and to wall yourself off.



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08 Jul 2015, 11:26 pm

Jacoby wrote:
The untenable situation is that white people are being forced to give up their culture and racial identity while minorities have there's celebrated and protected. I don't believe in multiculturalism, I think it is just segregation and that the melting pot is part of what made America great. When you move to America you are leaving behind your old country and culture, you should become an American first and assimilate. The fact is that American culture and society will always be dominated by Europeans to a certain degree because Europeans are by far the largest group, there isn't anything wrong with that as Americans are the most open and least racist people in the world. American culture has built the most powerful superpower in history and got us to the moon, immigration should be treated are an honor not an entitlement because I don't care what anybody tells you not every immigrant is a net positive for the country and it is humanitarian immigration policy. If you love your home country and culture more than you love America then don't bother leaving in the first place, don't come here if all you want is entitlements and to wall yourself off.


Paragraph breaks: They're not just for breakfast anymore.

Anyway, how are we being forced to give up our culture?

There are several scandinavian-themed celebrations within a hundred miles of me every year. I don't feel as though my culture is threatened.

Also how can you not believe in multiculturalism AND feel like preserving your specific culture?

People have been saying that "why don't they assimilate like we did" nonsense since the 2nd boat landed at plymouth rock, and it's always been BS.



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09 Jul 2015, 12:08 am

blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The untenable situation is that white people are being forced to give up their culture and racial identity while minorities have there's celebrated and protected. I don't believe in multiculturalism, I think it is just segregation and that the melting pot is part of what made America great. When you move to America you are leaving behind your old country and culture, you should become an American first and assimilate. The fact is that American culture and society will always be dominated by Europeans to a certain degree because Europeans are by far the largest group, there isn't anything wrong with that as Americans are the most open and least racist people in the world. American culture has built the most powerful superpower in history and got us to the moon, immigration should be treated are an honor not an entitlement because I don't care what anybody tells you not every immigrant is a net positive for the country and it is humanitarian immigration policy. If you love your home country and culture more than you love America then don't bother leaving in the first place, don't come here if all you want is entitlements and to wall yourself off.


Paragraph breaks: They're not just for breakfast anymore.

Anyway, how are we being forced to give up our culture?

There are several scandinavian-themed celebrations within a hundred miles of me every year. I don't feel as though my culture is threatened.

Also how can you not believe in multiculturalism AND feel like preserving your specific culture?

Are you really trying to grammarnazi me?

Anyways, those ethnic festivals of which I know very well growing up in Milwaukee aren't what I am talking about when I talk about culture but rather how people separate and see themselves as distinct from other peoples. When you analogue the methods and importance placed on preserving minority cultures to "white culture" then it is seen as supremacist and hateful, do you understand where I am coming from when I say it is untenable this way? This is where the Dylann Roofs of the world are created.

Overt legal racism is for the most part over, there are some things that remain that disproportionately effect certain peoples more than others which I don't support of course but the reality is that there isn't much to be fighting for any more except these "culture wars". Equality means equality, you don't get to be equal +1. Either we're the same or we're not, you can't tilt the playing field one way and not expect the other side to resent it. The reality is that most of the racial inequality in this country is a remnant and the oppression that led to it is over and has been for a while now. Since we live in real time and cannot undo the past all we can do is move forward, if we are to be equal now and going forward then the past has to be let go. I



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09 Jul 2015, 1:11 am

Jacoby wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
The untenable situation is that white people are being forced to give up their culture and racial identity while minorities have there's celebrated and protected. I don't believe in multiculturalism, I think it is just segregation and that the melting pot is part of what made America great. When you move to America you are leaving behind your old country and culture, you should become an American first and assimilate. The fact is that American culture and society will always be dominated by Europeans to a certain degree because Europeans are by far the largest group, there isn't anything wrong with that as Americans are the most open and least racist people in the world. American culture has built the most powerful superpower in history and got us to the moon, immigration should be treated are an honor not an entitlement because I don't care what anybody tells you not every immigrant is a net positive for the country and it is humanitarian immigration policy. If you love your home country and culture more than you love America then don't bother leaving in the first place, don't come here if all you want is entitlements and to wall yourself off.


Paragraph breaks: They're not just for breakfast anymore.

Anyway, how are we being forced to give up our culture?

There are several scandinavian-themed celebrations within a hundred miles of me every year. I don't feel as though my culture is threatened.

Also how can you not believe in multiculturalism AND feel like preserving your specific culture?

Are you really trying to grammarnazi me?


It's almost as hard to read a solid block of text like that as it is to try to parse that guy who posts in the form of beat poetry interspersed with youtube links.

So yeah.

Quote:
Anyways, those ethnic festivals of which I know very well growing up in Milwaukee aren't what I am talking about when I talk about culture but rather how people separate and see themselves as distinct from other peoples. When you analogue the methods and importance placed on preserving minority cultures to "white culture" then it is seen as supremacist and hateful, do you understand where I am coming from when I say it is untenable this way? This is where the Dylann Roofs of the world are created.


I dunno about that. Someone taught DR to be hateful. DR was also probably easily molded.

I don't personally feel like i place a high importance on preserving minority cultures.

I do place a high importance on preserving their cuisine. But I'm like that. I think the variety of restaurants i can get a good and interesting meal from is the best argument for multiculturalism. Having lemon grass chicken and escargot at the same table, for example. But we still don't have a full-on french-vietnamese restaurant here.

Maybe vietnam is a counter-example. I can't say for sure i know what they were eating before french colonization. The french gave them bread, coffee, charcuterie, and onion soup for starters. And they are killing it with all of those.

Pho is a multicultural soup. The rice noodles are chinese in origin. The broth made from onion and soup bones is very french. The peppers and some of the other spices are from the new world.

But somehow if there are too many white people in the noodle house, the soup isn't very good. In general, if tendon and tripes aren't available for your pho, it's not going to be very good. Not that i like eating tendon or tripes.

"White culture" is hardly monolithic, nor is "hispanic culture".

You've seen me express my disdain for purists in the old traditions of south-eastern united states scotch-irish culture. I also don't feel like i have much in common with kentucky hill people, or a number of other identifiable white subcultures.

A lot of non-hispanic black people in the USA have a shared history in slavery, but your east coast vs. west coast vs. southern vs. flyover black cultures have some major differences. Their shared history does bring them together in some conditions, though.

I think it could be argued that the culture that DR thought he was fighting for is not one that he would find in most of the United States.

Quote:
Overt legal racism is for the most part over, there are some things that remain that disproportionately effect certain peoples more than others which I don't support of course but the reality is that there isn't much to be fighting for any more except these "culture wars". Equality means equality, you don't get to be equal +1. Either we're the same or we're not, you can't tilt the playing field one way and not expect the other side to resent it. The reality is that most of the racial inequality in this country is a remnant and the oppression that led to it is over and has been for a while now. Since we live in real time and cannot undo the past all we can do is move forward, if we are to be equal now and going forward then the past has to be let go. I


You misrepresent the ideal of equality.

We are born with the same rights. We are equal under the law with regard to obligations and liabilities as well. Ostensibly, every eligible adult's vote counts for 1 vote. This is the kind of equality the founders spoke of.

And at no time will this make anyone truly equal to anyone else, nor do i believe that it was ever intended to.

As individuals, none are equal. Many are equal + a lot. Many are equal - a lot. What makes us different, as a nation, is that we try to embrace the ideal that having started out with many negatives should not, as it has in some nations, preclude you from shedding negatives.

Take for example the caste system in India, which insisted that if you are born untouchable you will be untouchable for your whole life, and your children will be untouchable, and you cannot marry or breed with anyone who is not also untouchable.

The caste system is officially illegal now, and has been for some time, but my brother's indian father-in-law told us all about the lower-class boy who lives at the end of the street who will do anything that anyone in the family asks at any time, for nothing.

That's an extreme example, sure, but there are still people in the south of the USA - descendants of indentured servants - who will tell you that they are poor white trash and will never amount to anything.

We are supposed to be better than that. Who your great-great grandparents were isn't supposed to dictate what you can do in your life. It might make it a lot easier or a lot harder, and the wealthiest and most powerful have done a lot to secure their positions, but "equality" here means rights, opportunity, and responsibilities.

Take my ukranian friend who arrived here, by his description, a bare-assed 13 year old with nothing. Today he owns a pretty decent apartment in brooklyn and earns a really good living as an IT guy for a law firm you've heard of.

His relatives back in Lviv? Not doing quite as well.

That's equality.

Does his son go to a school where they speak russian? You betcha.