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ZenDen
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06 Feb 2016, 12:59 pm

auntblabby wrote:
all my life I have felt as though I had to hang on for dear life, not really in direct control of too much. some folks are captains of their destinies, others are the flunkies cleaning up after.


I think you mean "all my life" until now. Maybe it's time for a change?
Things always change. If we learn to direct our life in a particular direction
then we learn to change "our way" rather than randomly, or according to
what others wish for us. But some people may like "cleaning up after" and
that's cool too.



ZenDen
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06 Feb 2016, 1:01 pm

Ardentmisanthrope23 wrote:
That was beautiful, ZenDen... :)


Thank you. I just point out we are ALL beautiful. :lol:



auntblabby
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06 Feb 2016, 10:52 pm

ZenDen wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
all my life I have felt as though I had to hang on for dear life, not really in direct control of too much. some folks are captains of their destinies, others are the flunkies cleaning up after.


I think you mean "all my life" until now. Maybe it's time for a change?
Things always change. If we learn to direct our life in a particular direction
then we learn to change "our way" rather than randomly, or according to
what others wish for us. But some people may like "cleaning up after" and
that's cool too.

the problem is learning how. I try but always life gets in the way. I don't particularly like "cleaning up after" but I realize that I should be thankful it is not worse.



AR15000
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06 Feb 2016, 11:10 pm

NewTime wrote:
I'd say we do. You can choose to get in a car. If so you made a choice. However if someone pushes you into that car, you were forced in. You didn't make a choice in that case.




There's an underlying presumption that your perception of causative agency is actually real. But there is plenty of scientific evidence that perception is not reality and our perception(mental representation) can go awry. A good example is the phenomenon of optical illusions where certain patterns of light fall upon the retina and the brain reconstructs the electrical signal generated by the retina(which transduces light into electricity) send along the optic nerve such that we "see" an object that isn't actually there.

But if you are thoroughly convinced that there is free will(the ability to make decisions free of any physical constraints), try getting high on phencyclidine/PCP/Angeldust and then tell me about free will! :lol:



auntblabby
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06 Feb 2016, 11:18 pm

I am willing to entertain the possibility for a lucky few with no addlements, that free will can be a real thing. but for most of us, not so much.



seaweed
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07 Feb 2016, 2:05 am

agency within constraints



Hopper
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07 Feb 2016, 5:34 am

If there's no free will, then we are not even able to discuss and reason whether there is free will or not. Our beliefs are not come to through reflection from experience, but are simply how things turned out as existence unfolds. We can neither be right nor wrong, as it is not our choice.

If there is free will, we can discuss and reason and decide whether there is free will or not. Our beliefs are open to decisive change. We have agency, so can be right or wrong.

I believe we have free will. I can't be wrong, but I could be right.

AR15000 wrote:
But if you are thoroughly convinced that there is free will(the ability to make decisions free of any physical constraints), try getting high on phencyclidine/PCP/Angeldust and then tell me about free will! :lol:


Chemical alteration to one's body/brain - I'd consider that a physical restraint.


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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Feb 2016, 10:03 am

Hopper wrote:
If there's no free will, then we are not even able to discuss and reason whether there is free will or not. Our beliefs are not come to through reflection from experience, but are simply how things turned out as existence unfolds. We can neither be right nor wrong, as it is not our choice.

If there is free will, we can discuss and reason and decide whether there is free will or not. Our beliefs are open to decisive change. We have agency, so can be right or wrong.

I believe we have free will. I can't be wrong, but I could be right.

I guess my litmus test is a little easier - if there was free will everyone would agree that I'm right on this. :)

AFAICT choice is one of the most vivid hallucinations we have. Rather it's something closer to as many options as we have warming up until one hits potential to eliminate the others. The causes of which choice ultimately wins are exactly the same with reference to the starting point no matter how many times you reload a moment of decision because you would be the exact same person you were, in the same exact environment in the same exact mood and thus the same exact thoughts would unfold.


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techstepgenr8tion
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07 Feb 2016, 2:54 pm

Getting an outcome you like doesn't mean you free-willed it.


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EnTiTyZ
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08 Feb 2016, 8:16 am

If it's deterministic cause and effect infinitely, then we have no free will, were just bound to have this conversation again and again a rather sad state.
Because having Ocd and the thought of not being able to stop intrusive thoughts which is not freewill as they are spontaneous or so it seems. bit of circular logic :oops:

Developed a quote when going through the above existential thoughts ? "the past is the future in motion"
a simple quote meaning that if the universe is infinite, and we know energy/mass can't be created or destroyed just recycled converted between itself e=mc2 given infinite time I've already lived this life :|

But we also have entropy/chaos which more or less a allows for an infinite amount of symmetry order within disorder patterns i think consciousness/freewill is a state breakdown in disorder to symmetry, pattern finding and that's all us humans do search for patterns, I always think of us as the universe aware but but ultimately it's all just cause and effect cancer is just a breakdown of dna etc.....

It's breaking symmetry converting order to disorder, or the opposite way round how rna virus would infect dna creating it's own symmetrical code within the host to replicate, but that would be like saying rna has freewill it certainly does not it relies on the host to get around, take that one step further our ancestors in the sea starfish have no neural network but react to external stimuli they have basic eyes light sensors to determine if a predator is over the starfish it wants to avoid being eating all without freewill ? might just be illusionary no free will could cause problems with morality but thats just a choice based on order hierarchy presumed intelligence, just a bunch of dumb monkeys still scratching around socrates put it best.
"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing"
Or the more you think you know the less you actually do, dunning krugar effect.
One thing for definite is freewill or no freewill it's good for technological advancement and understanding out the world around us.

All the above might be absolute garbage and probably is, but it's the best way i can explain it put it into words it's certainly a funny old universe and certainly one for philosophy did add a small amount of science to explain the point never a good thing when discussing philosophy but you can't have everything, just realised i still have a big obsession with symmetry ocd :oops: .



Last edited by EnTiTyZ on 08 Feb 2016, 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hopper
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08 Feb 2016, 8:38 am

It seems to me any investigation (be it one of reason or empiricism or contemplation) of the matter basically begs its question in its attempt to frame the issue a particular way in the first place.

I used to really tie my head in knots about the matter. What I describe above is the understanding I came to that helped me put the matter to rest for myself.

If everything about me is predetermined and I cannot choose one thing instead of another, and its predetermined I have these thoughts and write these words and so on in a dizzying recursion - well, so be it (indeed, that 'so be it' is predetermined, as is this aside, as is this one, as is etc etc) . But as things stand, I am predetermined to believe I can and do make choices. I am not open to consideration or reason or persuasion or changing my mind, as I have no choice in the matter.

Either way, I can't see how there is anything to be done. I believe and assume I have free will, I live as though I (and others) have it, and as such it would be intellectually dishonest to declare I don't have free will when my experience and assumption is that I do.


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Of course, it's probably quite a bit more complicated than that.

You know sometimes, between the dames and the horses, I don't even know why I put my hat on.


EnTiTyZ
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08 Feb 2016, 9:05 am

Hopper done the same it's a great circular argument but i try to expand and link it to other ideas it's hard to test validity of freewill, same with the subconscious 7 seconds before consciousness test, it's a simple reason nothing complex about it, it's a reflex reaction, if it did not happen we would not be able to jump out of the way of a moving car coming towards us it's survival instinct and anxiety at it's core fight or flight also a core feature of autism sensory overload i guess some peoples subconscious is slower than others there is a joke somewhere in that :)



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08 Feb 2016, 9:28 am

Hopper: "But as things stand, I am predetermined to believe I can and do make choices. I am not open to consideration or reason or persuasion or changing my mind, as I have no choice in the matter.

Either way, I can't see how there is anything to be done. I believe and assume I have free will, I live as though I (and others) have it, and as such it would be intellectually dishonest to declare I don't have free will when my experience and assumption is that I do."


Either we have free will, or our minds follow deteministic paths that we experience as making choices and having free will, so experientially and practically, we have free will. It may be that our lives are a preset form in spacetime, or it may be that we are always poised on a branching point in a bewildering profusion of many worlds, but the sensation of time creates the perception of choice, regardless of the deeper underlying truth.


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EnTiTyZ
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08 Feb 2016, 9:43 am

Not read the entire thread, this may have been covered but what is personality other than a collection of experiences that form opinion or fears genetics determines the response to that sensory input weak medium or strong.

We know that learning alters the physical structure of the brain, so mental illness could be a form of brain damage ptsd for instance a form of trauma drugs just help to dampen the pathways they don't really fix anything longterm.

I also found it interesting that a man with Asperges who also had savantism when his neurology was checked it was found that the maths and language part of his brain was firing from the parts connected to movement reflexes instead of the normal areas, which i would imagine, why he had a super math/language ability as a reflex is intuitive a natural function so if he was using that for math his rote memory must have been reinforced.

sorry to go off topic just thought this was interesting.



AR15000
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08 Feb 2016, 11:37 am

Hopper wrote:
It seems to me any investigation (be it one of reason or empiricism or contemplation) of the matter basically begs its question in its attempt to frame the issue a particular way in the first place.

I used to really tie my head in knots about the matter. What I describe above is the understanding I came to that helped me put the matter to rest for myself.

If everything about me is predetermined and I cannot choose one thing instead of another, and its predetermined I have these thoughts and write these words and so on in a dizzying recursion - well, so be it (indeed, that 'so be it' is predetermined, as is this aside, as is this one, as is etc etc) . But as things stand, I am predetermined to believe I can and do make choices. I am not open to consideration or reason or persuasion or changing my mind, as I have no choice in the matter.

Either way, I can't see how there is anything to be done. I believe and assume I have free will, I live as though I (and others) have it, and as such it would be intellectually dishonest to declare I don't have free will when my experience and assumption is that I do.



There's a false dichotomy on your part of absolute determinism with non-determinism. There is also emergentism where highly complex patters are generated from a set of very simple rules by means of recursion. The results are not random, but are not completely predictable. The question of free will is no longer a philosophical question but is now a scientific question. You make a decision and perceive that your conscious mind is the causative agent but you have no physical proof of this. And there is mounting evidence from neuroscience that processes in your brain which you're not aware of affect your thoughts(which you are aware of). Do not confuse free will with self-awareness.



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08 Feb 2016, 11:51 am

EnTiTyZ wrote:
Not read the entire thread, this may have been covered but what is personality other than a collection of experiences that form opinion or fears genetics determines the response to that sensory input weak medium or strong. We know that learning alters the physical structure of the brain, so mental illness could be a form of brain damage ptsd for instance a form of trauma drugs just help to dampen the pathways they don't really fix anything long-term. I also found it interesting that a man with Asperges who also had savantism when his neurology was checked it was found that the maths and language part of his brain was firing from the parts connected to movement reflexes instead of the normal areas, which i would imagine, why he had a super math/language ability as a reflex is intuitive a natural function so if he was using that for math his rote memory must have been reinforced.
sorry to go off topic just thought this was interesting.

that is fascinating about the man's miswired brain :chin: btw, welcome to WP :)