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ZenDen
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21 Feb 2016, 9:18 pm

auntblabby wrote:
and a great proportion of all the self-help books/authors out there purport to be able to increase your free will by reading and applying principles of thought written in their books. your mileage may vary. somebody moved my cheese.


Please tell me of the best you've read so we can compare?
(don't worry so much about your cheese...I'm sure you'll find it. :cheese: )



auntblabby
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21 Feb 2016, 9:21 pm

ZenDen wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
and a great proportion of all the self-help books/authors out there purport to be able to increase your free will by reading and applying principles of thought written in their books. your mileage may vary. somebody moved my cheese.


Please tell me of the best you've read so we can compare?
(don't worry so much about your cheese...I'm sure you'll find it. :cheese: )

one of the most useful, was a book about how to cure depression sans drugs. in it I got the factoid of how the average human mind could only hold in working memory one discrete thought at any time, so if it was a bad thought, then it was just a matter of shoving it outta the way with a newer unbad thought, repeat as needed. :idea:



ZenDen
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21 Feb 2016, 9:49 pm

auntblabby wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
auntblabby wrote:
and a great proportion of all the self-help books/authors out there purport to be able to increase your free will by reading and applying principles of thought written in their books. your mileage may vary. somebody moved my cheese.


Please tell me of the best you've read so we can compare?
(don't worry so much about your cheese...I'm sure you'll find it. :cheese: )

one of the most useful, was a book about how to cure depression sans drugs. in it I got the factoid of how the average human mind could only hold in working memory one discrete thought at any time, so if it was a bad thought, then it was just a matter of shoving it outta the way with a newer unbad thought, repeat as needed. :idea:


That sounds interesting. Would you have the book name?

One of my favorites is "Zen Mind, Beginner's mind" by Shunryu Suzuki in which he talks about examing choices in your life. :D



ZenDen
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21 Feb 2016, 10:05 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
So in other words, regardless of the underlying mechanics and setting, free will is real because it really feels like you're choosing and the sensation of choosing is enough to satisfy a popular definition of what is free will.

I can agree with that on a sensory experience like consciousness proving consciousness exists because it doesn't need to produce any kind of unique external effect to be there. I can't say that about choice anymore than I can say that my living room cheering made the Browns win or my booing made the Steelers lose. For me to argue that I felt like I made the Browns win or the Steelers lose is only false if I'm lying about what I experienced, arguing that I actually made the Browns win or Steelers lose is a completely different matter.

The OP could have titled the thread 'Do We Feel Like We Have Free Will?' if he was curious about people's subjective experiences in that way.


So we so far have determined you observe the effect humanity has on the Universe and you call this "some type" of human interaction with the universe, which you don't want to call free will. But other people may call this free will...this is afterall the popular term we use when taalking about ourselves interacting with and changing the universe.

Oh! I forgot...you didn't seem to want to talk about this at all...you only wanted to talk about determinism (and push buttons?Really?) , which is a different issue.

You mentioned: "The OP could have titled the thread 'Do We Feel Like We Have Free Will?' if he was curious about people's subjective experiences in that way."

But if you'd read the OP's few posts it seems very clear what he/she was asking in his/her OP and subsequent posts, and it wasn't about the validity of determinism.

But you only want to talk about determinism.

In fact it seems you're pre-determined to keep talking about determinism no doubt because of incidents in your cosmic past and beyond your control? :D



Last edited by ZenDen on 21 Feb 2016, 10:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

auntblabby
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21 Feb 2016, 10:08 pm

been over a decade since I read it, it was back in the 90s so I suspect it is out of print in any case.



techstepgenr8tion
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21 Feb 2016, 10:24 pm

ZenDen wrote:
So we so far have determined you observe the effect humanity has on the Universe and you call this "some type" of human interaction with the universe, which you don't want to call free will. But other people may call this free will...this is afterall the popular term we use when taalking about ourselves interacting with and changing the universe.

Actuall no, I would call humanity part of the universe and say that the universe interacts with the universe, really puts all of our feelings, agendas, and ideas up our sleeves, and we in turn output what we were wound up like springs to do. As far as I can see it we're filters - something gets poured into us and comes out in a particular manner. We have the illusion of things pouring out of us but little sense of everything we are pouring into us and not really being ours at all.


ZenDen wrote:
Oh! I forgot...you didn't seem to want to talk about this at all...you only wanted to talk about determinism (and push buttons?Really?) , which is a different issue.

If the universe is determined I don't know what else there is to talk about. If everything down to my finest muscle movement, down to the single molecule of neurotransmitter, moves precisely as it's going to - that's determinism.

I just haven't gotten any confirmation that a better set of ideas are displacing mine. I suppose one could just claim it's because I'm being obstinate and obtuse like a good crusader - I'm trying to look at what's being given back to me and what I'm getting is something more of an 'That might be true but we don't want to believe it matters - be civil and leave us in peace'. If that's what you guys really want then I can do that.

I guess the complexity of the sociology here is taking on truly theological and religious proportions and I'm too analytical to be in my proper element.

ZenDen wrote:
You mentioned: "The OP could have titled the thread 'Do We Feel Like We Have Free Will?' if he was curious about people's subjective experiences in that way."

But if you'd read the OP's few posts it seems very clear what he/she was asking in his/her OP and subsequent posts, and it wasn't about the validity of determinism.

But you only want to talk about determinism.

In fact it seems you're pre-determined to keep talking about determinism no doubt because of incidents in your cosmic past and beyond your control? :D

Because I truly and sincerely don't understand what's left to discuss if determinism is the basis of human activity.


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"The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. To be your own man is a hard business. If you try it, you'll be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privelege of owning yourself" - Rudyard Kipling


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22 Feb 2016, 3:25 pm

"Because I truly and sincerely don't understand what's left to discuss if determinism is the basis of human activity."

Thank you. ...."truly and sincerely." Did you ever think ("truly and sincerely") it might be better if you start a thread of your own about this some time so that others, thinking like you, may discuss without interruption? Although (upon reflection), why would you; I imagine all you'd involve is people just saying "Yup" which is probably why you don't. :D

For the same reason I'm thinking about starting a thread concerning free will by human beings who believe in personal freedom of choice, and feel this freedom can be used to effect and better their lives. I think you'd do many a favor by not joining the discussion as I feel your disruptions do no one any good (despite your apparent enjoyment) and in fact may do the opposite. Thank you.



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22 Feb 2016, 3:29 pm

I think we do, and sometimes it is a real pain in the behind.



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22 Feb 2016, 3:39 pm

it seems to me that the existentialists and the determinists need their own fiefdoms without interference from the other, rather like lefties and righties. I wonder if there are lots more free-will-espousing righties than lefties?