Should there be a law against public institutions that lie f

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Lukecash12
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15 Jul 2015, 11:19 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
Should there be a law against public institutions that lie for money?

Religions and many charitable organizations of all stripes make their revenues by lying to people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJ9oBCLwwL0

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... endas.html

Should we help protect the gullible by eliminating all the fraud that is being passed off as religion and charity?

Those who do not believe the lies being sold by religions and charities are presently subsidize the tax exemptions and credits that religions and charities enjoy. What they save in taxes, non-believers and those who actually want to give to charities must fork up.

I am not what most would call a non-believer, I am a Gnostic Christian, but still resent my hard earned tax money being used to perpetuate what most know are lies. If you are a non-believer, or one who wants your charitable donations to actually be used for charity, I hope you feel the same and do not like being fleeced the way the gullible are.

There ought to be a law against institution like religions and bogus charities that live off of lying to the gullible.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/won ... on-a-year/

Do you agree?

Regards
DL


To be honest, this just sounds like an ignorant tirade against people who donate money to their church. Show us where all the lies are, if you will.

My church, for example, is as transparent as could be about it's budget and you don't have to be a member at all to attend a meeting. And where does our money go? Either straight to a charity that has an excellent track record, straight into helping us feed, clothe, and provide for the unfortunate people in our community, or it pays for utilities, etc. So where are the lies? We aren't all a pack of televangelists, you know, trying to pay for Caiaphas' Cadillac.


When I speak of churches and mosques lying, I am referring to the theology they shove down your throat.

Have you not noticed the you priest will tell you the usual dogma that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways?

Have you also missed that he or she then proceeds to tell you all the reams of information that he knows and fathoms about the God he said was unknowable an unfathomable?

IOW. Have you missed that he is lying to you constantly?

Regards
DL


Nope. I haven't heard any of that. Or to be more precise: I haven't said any of that. You're conversing with a Freewill Baptist minister. So why don't you take a little step back with "shove theology down your throat" and listen to how vindictive you sound. Quit dehumanizing us.


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blauSamstag
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16 Jul 2015, 12:04 am

Lying about tangibles is clearly illegal.

Lying about intangibles, not so much.

We live in a country where people are allowed to believe whatever intangible thing they want. Even if they are really, really pushing it - like scientology, or Creflo Dollar.

I vaguely recall that in Italy you can end up charged with a crime for doing things like faking a miracle? I could be wrong, but that would be problematic under our constitution.

Some alleged faiths in the USA run afoul of the law for being an obvious con, but I'm not totally clear on how that works. There was a guy out here who was running a deal where you join his church, and become an ordained minister in his church, and then you sign over all of your income to the church and he gives you a checking account w/ debit card to cover your expenses as a minister, which is to say your whole life. Tax free, naturally. He went to jail.

I read where there's a church somewhere that has been sending collection notices to people telling them that they need to donate at least $1000/yr to be considered a member in good standing -- I expect that many of them will take this as a wake-up call that they have been following the wrong shepherd.

Mormons have their rules about tithes and offerings too, but they aren't near that strict, at least, you can come to church, maybe not so much go to the temple. Once a year during a special meeting, at least adult male members get an accounting of revenues and expenses, and it appears that most of the money does get spent on largely admirable works. Depending on your position on some issues, I guess.



chapstan
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16 Jul 2015, 8:54 am

As has been stated here a time or two, just because you disagree with someone's position doesn't make it a lie.

Within your own Gnostic Christianity, since you are a GnosticBishop, is there a gathering of believers? You may not call it a church, but do you donate to support it's goals?

For the US, churches and charities do get tax exempt status. They don't get direct government money but don't have to pay taxes on the monies that do come into their organizations.

Because of the American held beliefs in freedom of expression, free speech, freedom of association the common man or woman, can decide for themselves where to donate their hard earned money.

You've already shown us a list of charities that don't give back much of the money they take in. You have your own examples of religious groups that have been proven to be a fraud. But even as you have stated, not every charity is a bad apple, nor are all churches pushing false doctrine.

In your entire rant against Public Institutions that Lie, has there been one that has hurt you personally?



GnosticBishop
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16 Jul 2015, 12:26 pm

Fnord wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
[...]Researchers and other recipients of charitable donations should not be penalized because of the bad apples in the barrel. Better to clean out the bad apples and let the hungry at the good apples.
And what registered charity passes along 100% of what it collects to those it claims to represent?


None that I know of.

What ds that have to do with the issue of charities that give next to nothing?

Regards
DL



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16 Jul 2015, 12:30 pm

kamiyu910 wrote:
You cannot claim someone is lying just because they believe something you disagree with because you feel there is no proof. For some, there is plenty of proof. It's a completely personal choice. At my church, we study the bible, we look at what other religions believe and how each version of the bible came to be, and we compare it to the ancient documents that have survived and study it all. We question things, and we welcome people to question. It's the only church I know where the pastor welcomes people to correct him in the middle of a sermon.

Now, I wouldn't mind if places like TBN suddenly caught fire and died... hah


Sounds like a non-denominational and progressive church.

Most take a different approach. They begins their teachings with the notion that God is unknowable, unfathomable and works in mysterious ways, and then teaches reams of information on all they say they know as truth of that unknowable and unfathomable God.

One can know as a fact that they are lying.

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DL



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16 Jul 2015, 12:33 pm

Lukecash12 wrote:
[

Nope. I haven't heard any of that. Or to be more precise: I haven't said any of that. You're conversing with a Freewill Baptist minister. So why don't you take a little step back with "shove theology down your throat" and listen to how vindictive you sound. Quit dehumanizing us.


When you stop knowingly lying to gullible people on my dime, I will.

Regards
DL



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16 Jul 2015, 12:40 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Lying about tangibles is clearly illegal.

Lying about intangibles, not so much.

We live in a country where people are allowed to believe whatever intangible thing they want. Even if they are really, really pushing it - like scientology, or Creflo Dollar.

I vaguely recall that in Italy you can end up charged with a crime for doing things like faking a miracle? I could be wrong, but that would be problematic under our constitution.

Some alleged faiths in the USA run afoul of the law for being an obvious con, but I'm not totally clear on how that works. There was a guy out here who was running a deal where you join his church, and become an ordained minister in his church, and then you sign over all of your income to the church and he gives you a checking account w/ debit card to cover your expenses as a minister, which is to say your whole life. Tax free, naturally. He went to jail.

I read where there's a church somewhere that has been sending collection notices to people telling them that they need to donate at least $1000/yr to be considered a member in good standing -- I expect that many of them will take this as a wake-up call that they have been following the wrong shepherd.

Mormons have their rules about tithes and offerings too, but they aren't near that strict, at least, you can come to church, maybe not so much go to the temple. Once a year during a special meeting, at least adult male members get an accounting of revenues and expenses, and it appears that most of the money does get spent on largely admirable works. Depending on your position on some issues, I guess.


A lot get away with what they class as missionary work. Not always with the results I or moral people would approve.

African witches and Jesus
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlRG9gXriVI

Death to Gays.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyuKLyGUHNE

I am not sure if this school is exempt on tax or not.

Jesus Camp 1of 3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac

Some would call that child abuse.

Regards
DL



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16 Jul 2015, 12:47 pm

chapstan wrote:
As has been stated here a time or two, just because you disagree with someone's position doesn't make it a lie.

Within your own Gnostic Christianity, since you are a GnosticBishop, is there a gathering of believers? You may not call it a church, but do you donate to support it's goals?

For the US, churches and charities do get tax exempt status. They don't get direct government money but don't have to pay taxes on the monies that do come into their organizations.

Because of the American held beliefs in freedom of expression, free speech, freedom of association the common man or woman, can decide for themselves where to donate their hard earned money.

You've already shown us a list of charities that don't give back much of the money they take in. You have your own examples of religious groups that have been proven to be a fraud. But even as you have stated, not every charity is a bad apple, nor are all churches pushing false doctrine.

In your entire rant against Public Institutions that Lie, has there been one that has hurt you personally?


Yes. Taxpayer like me end up subsidize their ability to lie to their gullible believers.

I also think that religions should not receive any tax breaks of any kind and that their adherents should not be able to use what they give as tax deductions.

Churches are just theatres showing adult fairy tales and we cannot deduct what we spend at other theatres so people should not be able to deduct what is basically entertainment.

Regards
DL



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16 Jul 2015, 2:10 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
[

Nope. I haven't heard any of that. Or to be more precise: I haven't said any of that. You're conversing with a Freewill Baptist minister. So why don't you take a little step back with "shove theology down your throat" and listen to how vindictive you sound. Quit dehumanizing us.


When you stop knowingly lying to gullible people on my dime, I will.

Regards
DL


As a staunch, perhaps even strident, atheist I have argued a lot with religious people and theists here. But I've never said they were lying because they aren't. They disagree with me on pretty much everything having to do with God and I think they are wrong about a lot of things (such as those who hold that evolution doesn't and didn't happen). (Theists; note that I didn't say wrong about God, just wrong about evolution. God isn't knowable. Evolution is.) But being wrong or disagreeing or believing different things aren't lies.

'Lie' has a very specific meaning. For something to be a lie, the speaker must not believe what they are saying and saying it purely to deceive.

You are making the rather bold claim that priest/pastors/ministers/reverends/rabbis/imams (have I missed any?) are just as atheist as I am but are saying otherwise to their congregation to get donations and maintain tax exempt status.



chapstan
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16 Jul 2015, 2:35 pm

Janissy:

I appreciate you giving us Theists a little credit (But being wrong or disagreeing or believing different things aren't lies.) :)

I would assert that most people of faith are genuine in their beliefs and are not intentionally trying to deceive others.



Lukecash12
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16 Jul 2015, 3:34 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:
Lukecash12 wrote:
[

Nope. I haven't heard any of that. Or to be more precise: I haven't said any of that. You're conversing with a Freewill Baptist minister. So why don't you take a little step back with "shove theology down your throat" and listen to how vindictive you sound. Quit dehumanizing us.


When you stop knowingly lying to gullible people on my dime, I will.

Regards
DL


Oh, it's "on your dime", is it? Not that you were curious enough or sensitive enough to ask and appreciate, but I never took a vow of poverty. My livelihood doesn't come from the offering plate. In fact my church operates a lot like a soup kitchen. So you've succeeded only in dehumanizing yourself by spewing such ignorance.

Would you know what love looked like if it was right in front of you? You assume I'm in some kind of judgment seat, dependent on the gullibility of others, yet I'm in no way dependent or interested in judging people. What I do is love people to the best of my ability and knowledge. You seem have this misguided concept that everyone who is a relatively more orthodox Christian must be part of some authoritarian system. Well you can go ahead and ask my congregation if they've been coerced or told what they ought to believe, "or else".


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17 Jul 2015, 9:24 am

GnosticBishop wrote:
Fnord wrote:
GnosticBishop wrote:
[...]Researchers and other recipients of charitable donations should not be penalized because of the bad apples in the barrel. Better to clean out the bad apples and let the hungry at the good apples.
And what registered charity passes along 100% of what it collects to those it claims to represent?
None that I know of. What does that have to do with the issue of charities that give next to nothing?
Everything. Fraud is fraud, whether it's taking 1% or 100% (or anything more than 0%) from the money allegedly collected to benefit people in need.

Just like in Organized Religion, the people who run Organized Charities are scamming donors into making donations and getting rich off of the "Administrative Costs" they skim from what they collect.



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17 Jul 2015, 11:33 am

A fool and his money are soon parted.
No, I don't believe in passing laws to protect people who are bound to f**k themselves from f*****g themselves.


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Janissy
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17 Jul 2015, 11:39 am

Fnord wrote:
Fraud is fraud, whether it's taking 1% or 100% (or anything more than 0%) from the money allegedly collected to benefit people in need.

Just like in Organized Religion, the people who run Organized Charities are scamming donors into making donations and getting rich off of the "Administrative Costs" they skim from what they collect.


Some charities scam donors and get rich off "administrative costs" but that doesn't mean all administrative costs are fraudulent. Unless all work done is volunteer, there will have to be at least some payroll cost. If it's all volunteer that sharply limits the charity to being done in few-hour chunks by people with other jobs. That will be really scattershot and inefficient. I doubt it's possible for anything long term (like a shelter) but only works for very short term single projects.

Consider a shelter or soup kitchen. No doubt a lot of the work is volunteer. But how could it be done if nobody was full time to coordinate rental of the space, procuring the food, organizing the recipients (are there enough beds?), treasury duty etc. Maybe there are some people out there who have enough money that they can work for free full time. Unpaid interns do that, but then they are being financially supported by their families, saved money or loans or grants. All volunteer charity staffs are probably not feasible in most cases.

Then there are the other costs for things that don't go directly to the recipients. If it isn't run out of somebody's house, there's space rental. If there are charity goods to be distributed, trucks have to be rented or bought and kept full of gas. Paper must be bought to keep track of things, or a laptop. In a soup kitchen, the dishes have to be bought and there must be an actual kitchen with refrigerators and stoves. There are utilities that must also be paid for, as there are also for shelters. Those indirectly but not directly benefit the people in need. It all adds up.

But yachts? No.



Lukecash12
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17 Jul 2015, 3:21 pm

If you'd like, Bishop, we can start a thread especially to discuss Gnosticism and it's place in history. You can then go ahead and give me a heaping list of "lies" to deal with. I encourage it. But don't be surprised if someone has the wherewithal to provide answers to all of your claims. Let's see whose false narrative this really is.


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