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DarthMetaKnight
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02 Aug 2015, 3:54 am

Okay ... I've noticed that lots of people have been talking about the Confederate Flag lately. Apparently the flag was removed from the South Carolina Statehouse. That's good. The people of South Carolina have finally accepted that the south got owned during the civil war.

I'm sick of hearing people say that the stars and bars are a symbol of "southern pride". The flag is a symbol of white supremacy and it isn't very patriotic since the Confederated hated the Union.


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adifferentname
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02 Aug 2015, 5:14 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Okay ... I've noticed that lots of people have been talking about the Confederate Flag lately. Apparently the flag was removed from the South Carolina Statehouse. That's good. The people of South Carolina have finally accepted that the south got owned during the civil war.

I'm sick of hearing people say that the stars and bars are a symbol of "southern pride". The flag is a symbol of white supremacy and it isn't very patriotic since the Confederated hated the Union.


Is this an attempt to troll or are there actually people who think like this?



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02 Aug 2015, 6:31 am

adifferentname wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Okay ... I've noticed that lots of people have been talking about the Confederate Flag lately. Apparently the flag was removed from the South Carolina Statehouse. That's good. The people of South Carolina have finally accepted that the south got owned during the civil war. I'm sick of hearing people say that the stars and bars are a symbol of "southern pride". The flag is a symbol of white supremacy and it isn't very patriotic since the Confederated hated the Union.
Is this an attempt to troll or are there actually people who think like this?
There are actually people who think like this.

Whether or not the Confederate flag is racist becomes a moot point in light of the facts that (1) The Confederacy was conquered by a superior force - the United States of America; (2) The Confederacy surrendured to that superior force; and (3) the Confederacy was dissolved and re-assimilated into the Union, thus ending the existence of the Confederacy.

Why would anyone in his or her right mind want to display the Confederate flag, when it has become a symbol of weakness, stupidity, defeat, and submission?

Why not just display the white flag of surrender instead?



0_equals_true
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02 Aug 2015, 6:44 am

I don't see the problem with displaying a flag, I do see the problem with displaying it on state property.

In my mind the is the only thing that is relevant.

State office should display very few symbols: flag/symbol of nation, flag/symbol of state, flag/symbol of office. That is all.

No religion, special interest group iconography, text, etc.



Fnord
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02 Aug 2015, 6:54 am

0_equals_true wrote:
I don't see the problem with displaying a flag, I do see the problem with displaying it on state property.In my mind the is the only thing that is relevant. State office should display very few symbols: flag/symbol of nation, flag/symbol of state, flag/symbol of office. That is all. No religion, special interest group iconography, text, etc.
True.

America helped defeat Nazi Germany in WWII; why isn't the Nazi flag flying high on U.S. government property? American forces defeated and killed Osama bin Laden. Why isn't Osama bin Laden's picture hanging in government buildings?

Because these enemies were defeated and eliminated by U.S. government forces.

So why should a defeated enemy like the Confederate States receive the honor of official government recognition 150 years after they ceased to exist?

This "South Shall Rise Again" meme is just a myth, held onto by those who would return to an ante-bellum society of slavery, King Cotton, and arrogance.



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02 Aug 2015, 11:32 am

If it offends you, you need a history lesson.



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02 Aug 2015, 1:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
adifferentname wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Okay ... I've noticed that lots of people have been talking about the Confederate Flag lately. Apparently the flag was removed from the South Carolina Statehouse. That's good. The people of South Carolina have finally accepted that the south got owned during the civil war. I'm sick of hearing people say that the stars and bars are a symbol of "southern pride". The flag is a symbol of white supremacy and it isn't very patriotic since the Confederated hated the Union.
Is this an attempt to troll or are there actually people who think like this?
There are actually people who think like this.

Whether or not the Confederate flag is racist becomes a moot point in light of the facts that (1) The Confederacy was conquered by a superior force - the United States of America; (2) The Confederacy surrendured to that superior force; and (3) the Confederacy was dissolved and re-assimilated into the Union, thus ending the existence of the Confederacy.

Why would anyone in his or her right mind want to display the Confederate flag, when it has become a symbol of weakness, stupidity, defeat, and submission?

Why not just display the white flag of surrender instead?


Not everyone sees it that way, though. I've personally heard several true Southerners (having deep family roots in the former confederate states) say with a straight face: "Lee surrendered at Appomattox, I didn't" or some variation of that.On a personal level, they have not and will not capitulate.


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adifferentname
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02 Aug 2015, 1:18 pm

Fnord wrote:
There are actually people who think like this.


Truly? Or are such people allowing others to do their thinking for them?

Quote:
Whether or not the Confederate flag is racist becomes a moot point in light of the facts that (1) The Confederacy was conquered by a superior force - the United States of America; (2) The Confederacy surrendured to that superior force; and (3) the Confederacy was dissolved and re-assimilated into the Union, thus ending the existence of the Confederacy.

Why would anyone in his or her right mind want to display the Confederate flag, when it has become a symbol of weakness, stupidity, defeat, and submission?

Why not just display the white flag of surrender instead?


Was it stupidity or wisdom that caused the Confederacy to accept terms?

Quote:
America helped defeat Nazi Germany in WWII; why isn't the Nazi flag flying high on U.S. government property?


Was this rhetorical or are you desirous of being mocked? I see no way to answer this question without being moderately patronising at the very least.

Quote:
Because these enemies were defeated and eliminated by U.S. government forces.

So why should a defeated enemy like the Confederate States receive the honor of official government recognition 150 years after they ceased to exist?


Compare the terms of each surrender then try to answer your own question.



0_equals_true
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02 Aug 2015, 3:28 pm

The England flag / St George Cross has been associated with racists, ultra-nationalists and football hooligans. There are good reasons to challenge that impression, not by banning it, but having a counter movement.

You could argue that it is not the same given the root of the Confederate flag, but are you forgetting the feudal system in England and the association with the the Crusades it has (and that St. George has nothing to do with England). What it represents can change over time.

However dumb this flag fixation is (and it is dumb), having a counter narrative to Southern pride equaling racism, is no bad thing. A message that if it has been there, I've not aware of.

The civil war has been oversimplified, as if portraying the North/Yankees as moral crusaders against slavery, like wannabee William Wilberforce ilk freedom fighters is bunk. That is not accurate at least not at that start, and actually it was really about the politics of white people industrialism, vs agrarianism. Even Lincoln himself has been misrepresented in his early career.

I do think Confederate flag should have never graced state property in the first place. Most of the problem to do with that are down to the cold war. Principles thrown out the window in spirit of paranoia.



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02 Aug 2015, 5:32 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
The England flag / St George Cross has been associated with racists, ultra-nationalists and football hooligans. There are good reasons to challenge that impression, not by banning it, but having a counter movement.

You could argue that it is not the same given the root of the Confederate flag, but are you forgetting the feudal system in England and the association with the the Crusades it has (and that St. George has nothing to do with England). What it represents can change over time.

However dumb this flag fixation is (and it is dumb), having a counter narrative to Southern pride equaling racism, is no bad thing. A message that if it has been there, I've not aware of.

The civil war has been oversimplified, as if portraying the North/Yankees as moral crusaders against slavery, like wannabee William Wilberforce ilk freedom fighters is bunk. That is not accurate at least not at that start, and actually it was really about the politics of white people industrialism, vs agrarianism. Even Lincoln himself has been misrepresented in his early career.

I do think Confederate flag should have never graced state property in the first place. Most of the problem to do with that are down to the cold war. Principles thrown out the window in spirit of paranoia.


banning of slaverly was a political move to stop England from supporting the south and to try to make the south surrender faster. as all slaves in land taken by the north would be free. it wasn't til later all blacks were free like they should have been. heck until then they called them contraband as in confiscated property. many of the troops of the north treated blacks terrible and refused to help or free them. look how they treated black troops fighting for the north.

the north good freedom fighting and south bad slave owners is a after the war victors make the history thing. and I'm from the north. well west but we were witht he north and taught history from the Norths view. wasn't until college that I learned there was a lot more to the civil war then what northern/west high schools teach. its not so black and white.

slavery was going to end one way or another though it wasn't a sustainable system. the south knew that but they weren't ready to move away from it as it caused the collapse of their whole economy, they weren't industrialized like the north was. as my teach put it if the north was so anti slavery why didn't they refuse to buy any southern produces. nope they bought southern products cheaply and made it to other stuff and sold to Europe. they profited highly off of slavery and din't want to change it either. there were more anti slavery people in the north yes, and there were a few in the south too. remember England had gotten rid of slavery long before the us.



0_equals_true
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03 Aug 2015, 4:32 pm

sly279 wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
The England flag / St George Cross has been associated with racists, ultra-nationalists and football hooligans. There are good reasons to challenge that impression, not by banning it, but having a counter movement.

You could argue that it is not the same given the root of the Confederate flag, but are you forgetting the feudal system in England and the association with the the Crusades it has (and that St. George has nothing to do with England). What it represents can change over time.

However dumb this flag fixation is (and it is dumb), having a counter narrative to Southern pride equaling racism, is no bad thing. A message that if it has been there, I've not aware of.

The civil war has been oversimplified, as if portraying the North/Yankees as moral crusaders against slavery, like wannabee William Wilberforce ilk freedom fighters is bunk. That is not accurate at least not at that start, and actually it was really about the politics of white people industrialism, vs agrarianism. Even Lincoln himself has been misrepresented in his early career.

I do think Confederate flag should have never graced state property in the first place. Most of the problem to do with that are down to the cold war. Principles thrown out the window in spirit of paranoia.


banning of slaverly was a political move to stop England from supporting the south and to try to make the south surrender faster. as all slaves in land taken by the north would be free. it wasn't til later all blacks were free like they should have been. heck until then they called them contraband as in confiscated property. many of the troops of the north treated blacks terrible and refused to help or free them. look how they treated black troops fighting for the north.


Britain banned slavery in 1807 well before the civil war in the US.



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05 Aug 2015, 1:51 am

0_equals_true wrote:
sly279 wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
The England flag / St George Cross has been associated with racists, ultra-nationalists and football hooligans. There are good reasons to challenge that impression, not by banning it, but having a counter movement.

You could argue that it is not the same given the root of the Confederate flag, but are you forgetting the feudal system in England and the association with the the Crusades it has (and that St. George has nothing to do with England). What it represents can change over time.

However dumb this flag fixation is (and it is dumb), having a counter narrative to Southern pride equaling racism, is no bad thing. A message that if it has been there, I've not aware of.

The civil war has been oversimplified, as if portraying the North/Yankees as moral crusaders against slavery, like wannabee William Wilberforce ilk freedom fighters is bunk. That is not accurate at least not at that start, and actually it was really about the politics of white people industrialism, vs agrarianism. Even Lincoln himself has been misrepresented in his early career.

I do think Confederate flag should have never graced state property in the first place. Most of the problem to do with that are down to the cold war. Principles thrown out the window in spirit of paranoia.


banning of slaverly was a political move to stop England from supporting the south and to try to make the south surrender faster. as all slaves in land taken by the north would be free. it wasn't til later all blacks were free like they should have been. heck until then they called them contraband as in confiscated property. many of the troops of the north treated blacks terrible and refused to help or free them. look how they treated black troops fighting for the north.


Britain banned slavery in 1807 well before the civil war in the US.


yep from what I remember they simply paid evefryone for the freed slaves. which is stupid but mean people who owned slaves were less upset.



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05 Aug 2015, 2:19 am

And where did they take the money from?

It's a fact that you can't abolish slavery without robbing slave owners of their property. Fortunately, this problem doesn't exist when slavery has already been abolished.


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05 Aug 2015, 10:47 am

Fly your as*hole flag high. So we know who you are.

Just keep it on private property.



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05 Aug 2015, 11:33 am

Who'd have thought a piece of cloth with stars and bars on it wood cause such handwringing and butthurt? I have a hoodie with a likeness of my dog overlaid on the stars-n-bars. I never gave it much thought until recently. Now I can't wait for the weather to cool off enough so I can wear it. :D


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05 Aug 2015, 1:06 pm

There were more people with the stars n bars on license plates twenty years ago.Each year there were fewer,now that's it's controversial people are driving around with giant flags on their trucks.It eventually might have faded out,but not now.Like throwing fat on the fire,tell someone they can't have something and they want it all the more.
My son has a shirt with a wild boar on it with the flag in the background.He doesn't mean anything racist about it.To him it's just a shirt he likes.He likes to hunt hogs and he's from the South.He never mentioned any of his friends bitching about it,and the friends I'm talking about might have a reason to complain,but they don't.They judge him by his character and not his shirt.Thats what matters.
For the record I don't have a Rebel flag.Not even an American one.Just some old prayer flags that have long dissolved.


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