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blackdove
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01 Nov 2006, 2:11 pm

tdbrown82 wrote:
As long as people do not want to get offended, there will be Political Correctness.


wow, now that pretty much sums up to where everything still stands. face/off.

if we were to do away with PC...what would that do to AS or people on the spectrum in general? wouldn't it just enable others (nts perhaps) to just go around spewing what they really think about this and other communities?



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01 Nov 2006, 2:59 pm

blackdove wrote:
tdbrown82 wrote:
As long as people do not want to get offended, there will be Political Correctness.


wow, now that pretty much sums up to where everything still stands. face/off.

if we were to do away with PC...what would that do to AS or people on the spectrum in general? wouldn't it just enable others (nts perhaps) to just go around spewing what they really think about this and other communities?


Unfortunately by forcing people to accept anyone due to oppressive laws or policies is as bad as giving people the right to completely be hateful and judgmental. My problem with political correctness is that it's using the exact same tactics bigots use to promote their beliefs and I find that rather unacceptable for something that says it promotes equality. You cannot discriminate ANYONE if you're truly promoting equality.

I mean here's a couple of examples, I got in trouble in high school one time, just because I said the word 'actress' when I was talking about one, because it's was seen sexist by one person. I mean what is wrong with that honestly? I wasn't be sexist at all and yet I'm persecuted for it unnecessarily. I also got in trouble for using the term 'handicapped' and again, I wasn't using that in a discriminatory way and I got in trouble for it. The sensitivity of people is causing bigotry to innocent people who are just saying things without hate or provocation. This behavior needs to be rid of because I can see it fueling prejudice even though the person wasn't in intention being harmful.

People need to learn tolerance instead of forced by law to accept, because if people are tolerate of each others opinions, then eventually acceptance can be achieved in the long-term, it's not a thing that'll happen overnight.

I mean here's a hypothetical situation:
A NT person hates ALL people with 'disabilities' and feel they're a waste of resources, but is expressing it as casual opinion, not as a threat:

* In a Politically Correct world, the person will be verbally (or in extreme cases, physically) attacked and have their life potentially ruined as the PC people try to make a huge case out of it. This response teaches the person nothing and therefore creates more hate and if extreme, makes the person want to join a hate organization. This is a problem because what do the bigots learn from these oppressive measures? It's likely they learn that 'They're winning the war of discrimination, we need to try harder to get our point across'

* In a two-way tolerant world, the person can express their opinion however, they are ALSO obligated to respect the opinion of 'disabled' people and both side should be tolerate of each other's existence without hate or prejudice. The kind of tolerance I'm talking about is showing at least no form of hate or judgment on others. I mean to throw in an example, "You might hate NT people and entitled to say your opinion, but you cannot promote hateful or prejudice behavior with it." The reason why this is more effective is because well, if they were tolerant of each others despite their feelings, you can have people's opinions swayed into acceptance.

Basically I'm trying to support a idea that encourages people to talk with each other without the feeling that they're going to get oppressed if they accidentally say the wrong term or express a innocent religious, sexual or cultural gesture. People who hate although need to control their hateful behavior and should be encouraged to at least associate with others willfully without harming or judging them; they shouldn't be forced to accept them by oppressive laws, but at least have the ability to decide for themselves, whenever or not their hate is rational.


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02 Nov 2006, 11:36 pm

I notice there's a worrying trend of political correctness that is occurring throughout the western world. It's cause is to apparently spread equality towards all races, genders, sexual preference, cultures, mental state, etc. But I've noticed instead that it's creating a new form of racism which instead of a person attacking the creditability, potential or any attribute of someone who is different to them, the people who are favored by the politically correct regime are exploiting their attributes to their advantage. I mean every action or so much any reference to color when you order a coffee is seen as racist these days, when you say 'god bless you' to an easily offended atheist you'll probably get sued, etc. It's worrying because political correctness is promoting the exact same thing as racism, but in reverse and therefore it's creating more hate and intolerance than it stops.

Take affirmative action for instance, no matter how qualified for a job you are, that factor is irrelevant when race or gender becomes a factor and the company will hire a racially different person, despite the fact you may have a perfect grade level and they didn't. This isn't solving anything because it create intolerance in respect that despite the fact you worked so hard in college for a job, someone with less effort gets your job and you'll likely resent that for the rest of your life. To sum it up, it just doesn't work to play favorites because of irrelevant attributes at all if you want to strive for equality in society. Hire purely the best for the job no matter who they are, regardless of race, gender, culture, sexual preference, mental state, etc and that's all there is to it. I don't see the problem with employers, I see the problem with the education system because if they were to educate people about tolerate and give everyone a fair education, they'll be a diverse group of people to choose for employment. I know there's one more issue here and that's if there's two people of the same academic level, one white male and one black female for example. Well to resolve who to pick fairly, hire both of them under a temporary employment contract for 1 month and see who does better and then decide from there.

Another problem is the whole happy holidays trend, I mean parts of the western world grew with Christianity traditions and it doesn't honestly matter. I mean in the middle east, it's dominantly Islamic traditions, in India it's dominantly Hindu traditions, In Africa it's a mixture of various cultures, it's a part of history and you cannot change it. To solve this it's simple, just simply ignore it when someone gives you a Christmas card or says 'Merry Christmas'. It's not they're personally attacking your beliefs by doing so, they're being nice to present you a harmless gesture. I find that the more you think about whenever or not you'll offend someone because of different creed, the most I feel it's discriminatory to them. I mean if you have to so much as think about them being different and forced to accommodate to their beliefs entirely without any say about yours, that's inverted discrimination because you're forced to hide your own beliefs.

Don't get me started on the justice system, but I'm sure with my two previous statement you can see what the general problem is.

Political Correctness is fundamentally flawed and needs to be stopped before we see a form of social breakdown where xenophobia begins to isolate communities and people away from each other either in fear of been attacked by politically correct people or resentment due to unfair policies that discriminate. I predict this happening in about several centuries from now unless something miraculous happens to change things.

I mean it's bad enough where they've changed baa baa black sheep to rainbow sheep due to Political Correctness which I rather find pathetic because acknowledging a black sheep as a reference to a black person is somewhat racist in the first place to even think about.

The real solution I propose to this is tolerance, not forced acceptance but just simple tolerance. You cannot force people to change by been hostile or demanding, instead you need to give people education to basically retain their freedom of opinion but at the same time tell them to not let it dictate how they treat others and try to experience being with them before they judge. After all, experience is the only thing that can change opinion about things, if you encourage people to interact with others but not force them to accept by hostility, then eventually the people might realize, "These people are not bad" and become more warm to their presence and become accepting. In turn this would lead to parents teaching their children what they've experienced and then the cycle begins to help form equality over time.

Of course this doesn't work with everyone, but at least it prevents the overall population from become xenophobic due to either fear or anger.

I've come down to this conclusion because you cannot force people to change by telling them to do so or engage in any hostility or brand them a name, but you can however encourage person to tolerate and experience before they judge others and that's all that's really needed.

Thanks for your time for reading it, it's been a thing I've wanted to say publicly for a long time. :)

I'm not really directing this at anything in particular, kind of a rant actually.

Any thoughts?


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03 Nov 2006, 1:03 am

I'll Quote Litigious on another site:

Litigious wrote:
Political correctness is inverted bigotry


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03 Nov 2006, 2:06 am

Frankly, you mistake your own perceptions, perhaps encouraged by Rush Limbaugh and other conservative pundits, for the truth. First of all, you create a false dilemma:

Nexus wrote:
I mean every action or so much any reference to color when you order a coffee is seen as racist these days, when you say 'god bless you' to an easily offended atheist you'll probably get sued, etc. It's worrying because political correctness is promoting the exact same thing as racism, but in reverse and therefore it's creating more hate and intolerance than it stops.

Coffee has nothing to do with race (unless you want to consider who grows the beans and how they are compensated for that). It's only in the delusional mind of the pundits that there are actually people who will think you're racist because you order your coffee black. And, well, I don't think any atheist is going to sue someone for saying, "God bless you," (with the exception that someone has been harassing someone with that to get them to convert). Technically, they could sue if they wanted to waste a whole lot of time and money, but the judge would just laugh them out of court. Your hyperbole really has no basis in reality.
Nexus wrote:
Another problem is the whole happy holidays trend, I mean parts of the western world grew with Christianity traditions and it doesn't honestly matter. I mean in the middle east, it's dominantly Islamic traditions, in India it's dominantly Hindu traditions, In Africa it's a mixture of various cultures, it's a part of history and you cannot change it. To solve this it's simple, just simply ignore it when someone gives you a Christmas card or says 'Merry Christmas'. It's not they're personally attacking your beliefs by doing so, they're being nice to present you a harmless gesture.

First of all, being tradition or custom has no bearing on whether something is right or wrong; slavery was traditional at one time, too. And your saying "it doesn't honestly matter" begs the question. It apparently doesn't matter to you (or the conservative pundits), but it clearly matters to some people; otherwise, there would be no controversy.

Sometimes people do bad things with the best of intentions, but that doesn't make it right. It might not make them blameworthy, but it may mean they need to learn the unforeseen consequences of their actions and beliefs. Sure, a bystander wishing me merry Christmas may mean no offense and actually be wishing me well (in itself, a laudable thing), but their simple statement implies numerous other conditions: that I celebrate Christmas (indeed I do—in a nonreligious way), that Christmas is something to celebrate, and that I share the beliefs (e.g., as the birthday of Christ, that Christ is the savior of humanity) that may make Christmas a reason to celebrate. Beyond wishing me well, the bystander presumes I share with him certain assumptions which I may not share at all. Since there are many non-Christians in the United States, it is not unreasonable to expect the person to be non-Christian or Christian (rather than solely Christian). Failure to take this into account is ignorance; unwillingness to take this into account is arrogance.

Nonreligious people, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Taoists, Hindus, and others are not guests living in a Christian nation; Christianity is a tradition here—but only for some; Hinduism is equally a tradition for some in the United States. Since you seem to be in the majority race and religion in the United States (white and Christian respectively), you may not know the perspective of those who are not. As a nonreligious person, I find all the argument about religion silly. As I see it, your personal religious beliefs are really none of my business but I demand the same respect for my belief (or nonbelief, rather). You can pray a million times a day if you want and attend however many masses per week you think you need or even believe a flying spaghetti monster created the universe. Don't bother me with your silliness, though, and I won't tell you how stupid I think you are, and keep your beliefs out of the government, including the public school classroom. And maybe when you want to wish me well, get a little creative and think of a way to say it without getting your cosmology tied in.

Being sensitive to the fact that people have their own beliefs and opinions is anything but "inverted bigotry." It's simply a matter of having the forethought to not to assume everyone else is just like yourself. This sensitivity can open a person to a wider range of friends who will appreciate their tact and not have their identity ignored, devalued, and forcibly blurred by arrogant assumptions of cultural and religious likeness.



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03 Nov 2006, 2:13 am

As another point, some people indeed do exploit the trend to greater intercultural/ability awareness solely for their personal advantage, but there are opportunists who will try to manipulate any trend they can to their advantage. This does not mean a sensible application of the idea is not a good thing.



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03 Nov 2006, 4:18 am

NeantHumain wrote:
As another point, some people indeed do exploit the trend to greater intercultural/ability awareness solely for their personal advantage, but there are opportunists who will try to manipulate any trend they can to their advantage. This does not mean a sensible application of the idea is not a good thing.


I'll respond to everything as much as I can and clarify anything I might have forgot to add. But first, I'm not Christian or neo-conservative although I do share very few conservative views to confess. Thought I'd clarify that before I resume.

I admit the coffee remark was an exaggeration, but I really sometimes feel that's how people think of me if I were to order one due to impression that political correctness gives (but that could be bad press to blame), but you're right about what you said. As for the atheist suing someone for a 'god bless you' remark, there's being a news article about it somewhat a long time ago, but since I cannot find it off-hand, I will discard that statement as well due to lack of evidence.

What I'm trying to say is that, I don't care if a extreme Christian came up to me and says 'God bless you, Merry Christmas' I don't get upset and feel it's inappropriate, because they have their beliefs and I have my own. I should have the right to wish them whatever in reply in exchange for them saying whatever they want. I know people will feel that I'm trying to press a point by my perspective only but I feel that being too sensitive about things is problematic; also it'll be a lot harder to force people to be so sensitive and considerate, rather than be relaxed and be free to express casual, accidental misuse of term, and/or non-threatening phrases or words without persecution.

You do have a valid point about people need to present respect for other beliefs but my question is, how you do determine how to talk with someone you don't know? For instance, if I say 'Happy Holidays' to a extreme Christian, they'll find it offensive that I'm eroding their religion because Christmas is a Christian holiday to celebrate Jesus' birth to their beliefs, not a generic holiday. On the other hand, in your case, if I say 'Merry Christmas' you'll feel that I might be pressing Christianity onto you, even though I'm just responding in accordance to the occasion present.

But to explain my position, I don't have a problem with others expressing their beliefs casually because, they have a right to express themselves as long as I have the right to do so as well. I wouldn't lobby to enforce some 'laws' or 'policies' to stop them doing so like political correctness seems to do; because then they should have the right to lobby and stop me from saying what I want because it offends their beliefs. It's a two way situation and if you select one, the other will respond aggressively because it's unfairly discriminated. I'm acknowledging that it's a lose-lose situation to achieve equality with the way political correctness currently works. I wish things were simple but everything has two sides and I'm trying to figure out some resolution to accommodate a central point that both sides could agree on.

I support free speech more than anything because it's a fundamental right to the people and I don't ever want the western world to end up with no right to speak about anything, because they fear being attacked by any organization or cause. Although it has to be given some limitations such as it doesn't promote physical or psychological harm, causes a public disturbance without cause (such as yelling 'fire' when there's no threatening fire around) or a call to arms or commit crimes towards a group of people who are innocent. Political correctness is a threat to this because, I fear there's a situation where if you so much say the wrong term or phrase to someone, I'm going to be personally attacked (and possibly hounded) for it and my life ruined by crazed politically correct people, therefore promoting me to feel rather xenophobic as a consequence.

What I was trying to imply about traditional history is that, since the mainstream population is Christian in America for instance, you can't expect everyone in a majority to conform to it without harsh resistance. Besides by enforcing 'Happy Holidays' on everyone, you're doing the exact same thing in forcing an principle you believe in, as the extreme Christian mainstream do with saying 'Merry Christmas'. Everyone has to have a significant right to express themselves to a extent of saying a simple statement like 'God bless you' but not go to the lengths of preaching; instead of forcing one idea that everyone is forced to do. That's why I feel education to teach tolerance is far more important than forcing ideals on everyone.

The reason why I say it honestly doesn't matter is because you are expected to somewhat respect the customs of the country you live in, and not try to force it to conform to what you purely believe in. However, that doesn't give the majority the right to control people of other faiths or opinions either, instead both sides need to take this approach, "You believe in this, I believe in that and that's perfectly fine, and if you like to say this, then I can say that. If you want to preach to me, I'll preach back to you." Although I might have been too general about my statement, because I don't support religious laws in government and the laws need to be as fair as possible for ALL individuals.

Do you realize that political correctness is highly present in the education system? So I can't be criticized for proposing an idea to the government for the education system if political correctness is being hypocritical in it's perceived principle of, 'not forcing others to one cultural ideal'.

All I'm summarizing is that people need to not take things so sensitively because it's a loosing battle to control people to comply with sensitivity. A strategy is needed which promotes as full of freedom of speech, but education of tolerance to encourage people to not be hateful, not to judge others and actually experience different cultures instead of just 'shielding them' from others. This will not stop other people saying 'God bless you' even if you're an atheist; but it'll allow people to reconcile their differences and maintain raw cultural diversity of all groups, rather than forcing conformity of acceptance which fuels more discrimination due to resentment of politically correct policies.

I do respect your option and I'm glad you spent the time to point out a few things because I make mistakes by assumption at times. But please don't get me wrong, I want the same goal to have cultural diversity with tolerance people and end discrimination, but I guess we have different views on how to apply and what needs to be compromised in order to successfully achieve it.


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Last edited by Nexus on 03 Nov 2006, 10:52 pm, edited 5 times in total.

BazzaMcKenzie
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03 Nov 2006, 7:06 pm

NeantHumain wrote:
Being sensitive to the fact that people have their own beliefs and opinions is anything but "inverted bigotry." It's simply a matter of having the forethought to not to assume everyone else is just like yourself. This sensitivity can open a person to a wider range of friends who will appreciate their tact and not have their identity ignored, devalued, and forcibly blurred by arrogant assumptions of cultural and religious likeness.

But being PC means having to be sensitive to all sorts of whackos who are insensitive to my beliefs and opinions.

When I was in the CMF (Army reserve) we would sometimes get visits from people who we would make welcome in the Mess at social functions. Sometimes greenines and tree huggers. While we made them welcome, I could never imagine them making me welcome at their social functions.

I agree with Litigious and Scrapheap.


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03 Nov 2006, 7:09 pm

Scrapheap wrote:
I'll Quote Litigious on another site:

Litigious wrote:
Political correctness is inverted bigotry


Thanks. That sums the s**t up as briefly as possible. Here in Europe it has gone so far that you can go to jail for stating things about other ethnicities that are statistically proven facts.

For example: A woman in Switzerland was gangbang raped by some African immigrants. They got a very mild punishment for it. A couple of years later the same woman's daughter was gangbang raped and murdered by some other Africans! They also got a punishment that was a pure insult to the woman who already herself had been raped and now had gotten her daughter raped and murdered!. After the rapists were released, the woman once met them face to face and shouted "f*****g Niggers" to them. She got put on trial and got a harder punishment than the rapists got!! ! NO, IT'S COMPLETELY TRUE, BUT I WISH IT WEREN'T!

*PUKING ON POLITICAL CORRECTNESS IN GENERAL AND ON EUROPEAN COWARDICE IN PARTICULAR*


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03 Nov 2006, 7:15 pm

And the sickest of all is, that you usually don't find these facts through "official medias", but you have to go to some neonazi site or paper to find out. You can then check it with the courts' records and other publicly available documentary and find out that the neonazis actually were telling the truth and the officials were not or at least kept quiet!

What do you think of that, the authorities lying to that degree, that you have to find the truth through neonazis? Oh, that's really democracy at its best, isn't it? :roll:


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03 Nov 2006, 7:21 pm

Litigious wrote:
And the sickest of all is, that you usually don't find these facts through "official medias", but you have to go to some neonazi site or paper to find out. You can then check it with the courts' records and other publicly available documentary and find out that the neonazis actually were telling the truth and the officials were not or at least kept quiet!

What do you think of that, the authorities lying to that degree, that you have to find the truth through neonazis? Oh, that's really democracy at its best, isn't it? :roll:

Sab but true. I think its because of this official denial (we get that here too) and political correctness that gives the neo-nazi's a support base of angry and frustrated people.

If you don't want neo-nazis, get rid of political correctness.


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03 Nov 2006, 8:02 pm

BazzaMcKenzie wrote:
Sab but true. I think its because of this official denial (we get that here too) and political correctness that gives the neo-nazi's a support base of angry and frustrated people.

If you don't want neo-nazis, get rid of political correctness.


Sweden was a very homogenous society until the beginning of the 1970s. The only immigrants were a few Finns, whose culture is pretty similar to the Swedish, some Italians and Yugoslavs, who came here because it was short of laborers. In those days, the neonazis wouldn't have the slightest chance to get anywhere.

Today, we have 1 million immigrants of a population of 9 millions, and some hundred thousands, who have Swedish citizenship but are children of immigrants. Most are from the Balkans, Africa and the Middle East. It's common knowledge that some particular crimes are almost exclusively committed of people from these ethnicities. Those crimes hardly existed 30 years ago. But it's forbidden to speak about it. You can loose your job or your right to study at the university or even go to jail for speaking it out in public.

In last election, 17 September this year, the neonazi or rather semi or cryptonazi, but still xenophobic party "Sweden Democrates" got into about 1/3 of the community boards...


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03 Nov 2006, 9:33 pm

As long as people do not want to get offended, there will be Political Correctness.



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03 Nov 2006, 10:34 pm

political correctness in the united states is called affirmative action, wich i think she be done away with since it's really not fair, and kindof stupid.



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04 Nov 2006, 1:26 am

In the very end, the only people who are safe from political correctness are differently-abled lesbian fe-person Africans, ya know?

http://philip.greenspun.com/zoo