Page 3 of 6 [ 94 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6  Next

Galbwas
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 8 Sep 2015
Age: 23
Posts: 19

13 Sep 2015, 2:20 pm

Humanaut wrote:
The real question is whether terrorist run states based on Sharia law have a right to exist.

Turkey, Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Jordan, Egypt, Sudan, Libya, and the various states and territories of Arabia proper (Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Yemen, Oman, Bahrain, Qatar)
All countries run my Muslims.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

13 Sep 2015, 3:14 pm

Galbwas wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
What must happen is dealing with today, not yesterday and I do not deny the Jews right to existence which, all the evidence points to, was threatened in Europe. So, they have their own country in a place where Jews lived and had their towns and cities. I have no problem with it.

Yea, but the Jews left their homeland and only wanted a place to live after the holocaust. I don't blame them for that.
And there IS a difference between Jews and Israelis. According to Merriam-Webster A Jew is : someone whose religion is Judaism, who is descended from Jewish people, or who participates in the culture surrounding Judaism

And a Israeli: : of or relating to the people or the republic of Israel


There is a difference, and people on this thread do not seem to know that little IMPORTANT fact.

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
So, they have their own country in a place where Jews lived and had their towns and cities. I have no problem with it.

But, in order to do that the Israelis killed off the Palestinians LIVING there, they took their homes, their property, and their dignity. Then they did not stop there. They built walls around the Palestinians, making them prisoners in their OWN LAND. They take them, beat them and shoot them. If this happens anywhere else, people will riot and demand justice.

I lived in Palestine (as mentioned before) and one of the many horrible memories I have is this-
In order for people to get into Jerusalem from Bethlehem, you had to take a bus into Israel. Me and my family were on it, and we stopped at a checkpoint manned my Israeli soldiers. The captain came on and started looking at everyone's passports. After he did this to the entire bus he took 5 Palestinians off and went to "interrogate" them. After an hour of Interrogation the 5 Palestinians came back.... 3 were bloodied and beaten, one could barely walk. but they got on the bus anyways and we continued on to Jerusalem.

Didn't this happen after the war between the Arabs and Israel? What is happening is the result of refusal to work within the partition and now they are all crying for it to be like it was supposed to in the partition but it wasn't good enough.
What Palestinians want is for Israel to go away but that's not realistic, any more than it is for the descendants of Europeans to leave America so it can go back to the Natives who were here first, but they came from somewhere. During World War ii, Jews lost a lot of property in Europe, never to regain it. Sometimes, the only thing you can do is let go of the past. Accept losses and work toward a better future. Right now there's Israel and these Arab countries. Isael is small. Just accept this tiny land parcel as belonging to the Jews and work toward recognizing it as a sovereign land and build your life on what you have. It's time to do this and to stop with the Nazi ideology and hatred of Jews. No people has a spotless history and humans have always moved from place to place. Those Palestinians, a lot of them came from Egypt, Lebanon and Jordan during the wars. They actually came from someplace else just like the Jews, most of them, came to Israel.



Galbwas
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 8 Sep 2015
Age: 23
Posts: 19

13 Sep 2015, 3:51 pm

Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.



blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

13 Sep 2015, 5:35 pm

Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


That, and right of return.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

13 Sep 2015, 5:48 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


That, and right of return.

Well then let's let the native Americans return to their land and everyone keep returning and returning again until we are all "home." How does that sound?



0_equals_true
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,038
Location: London

13 Sep 2015, 5:51 pm

Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


Not really, look at the map in 1947. This was before the Arab nations attacked Israel.

The Palestinians had an area greater than Lebanon, with less people. No one side controlled the centre. Both had access to the Mediterranean and east. Also Arab villages in Israel were free to live there. They were expelled only after, which was not atypical for the era.

Yes more territory was taken but is normal to move the front, when being attacked.

If you are talking the settlements I disagree with them, however the majority happened after the first intefada, they have been withdrawn from Gaza and that is the worst place by far.

Note: Not under the British, Ottomans, Fatmids, Byzantines, Romans, etc did they every have self determination, this was an opportunity to to do that, squandered.

Both sides if they wanted peace they could have it tomorrow. It really not about what you think. It is about who is superior, who is more virtuous and righteous.



blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

13 Sep 2015, 6:17 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


That, and right of return.

Well then let's let the native Americans return to their land and everyone keep returning and returning again until we are all "home." How does that sound?


Again there's a question of the scale of time. Also a question of treaties between sovereign nations.

We still have 1st generation displaced palestinians. 2nd generation displaced palestinians, many legal scholars believe, still have right of return.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

13 Sep 2015, 7:36 pm

blauSamstag wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


That, and right of return.

Well then let's let the native Americans return to their land and everyone keep returning and returning again until we are all "home." How does that sound?


Again there's a question of the scale of time. Also a question of treaties between sovereign nations.

We still have 1st generation displaced palestinians. 2nd generation displaced palestinians, many legal scholars believe, still have right of return.


But in Europe we have a lot of land that was stolen from the Jews and some of them are still living and definitely the second generation displaced are alive. Do you think Germany would give them everything back, as in property, or pay them off with money which is the most practical way to resolve this situation but the Gazans will need to put the bitterness behind them and be willing to move on and past this idea Jews must be wiped from the face of the earth. They would need to focus on building a lovely city out of Gaza and not fight with the Jews any longer. Why not just work toward that because if you think the Jews are giving up Israel it's not going to happen. It simply will not happen no more than you or I will go back to Europe and demand to live where our Great Grandparents did because mine came from Eastern Europe.



Galbwas
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 8 Sep 2015
Age: 23
Posts: 19

13 Sep 2015, 10:36 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

But in Europe we have a lot of land that was stolen from the Jews and some of them are still living and definitely the second generation displaced are alive. Do you think Germany would give them everything back, as in property, or pay them off with money which is the most practical way to resolve this situation.


A) It was the Nazies that did it not Getmany.
B) They did that. (Allies and modern day Germany did)
C) they were placed in modern day Israel and became Isralies.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

14 Sep 2015, 5:44 am

Galbwas wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

But in Europe we have a lot of land that was stolen from the Jews and some of them are still living and definitely the second generation displaced are alive. Do you think Germany would give them everything back, as in property, or pay them off with money which is the most practical way to resolve this situation.


A) It was the Nazies that did it not Getmany.
B) They did that. (Allies and modern day Germany did)
C) they were placed in modern day Israel and became Isralies.



Uh, it was Germany. At the time, the Nazis were in power but they ran the German state and many Germans joined them so Germany would have the responsibility of giving back what was stolen from Jews and keep in mind MANY, as in millions of Jews were starved to death, worked to death, gassed to death, or a combination of all three, which they paid the ultimate price. How do you put a price tag on it? It's something to think about. You are dealing with people who have gone through a genocide in Europe while Arabs have NOT gone through one. Islam hasn't. Yet you want to hold the Nazis dear through the sentiments of your Supreme Grand Mufti who held the Nazis in such high esteem and shared with them a vision of the Final Solution. Think about it before pointing fingers. What page in history are you on?

This you choose to do instead of focusing on a future of progress and Gaza becoming a great city much like Beirut. Don't you see how limited it is, following the ideas of the Nazis rather than cooperating and moving ahead?



Tollorin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,178
Location: Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada

14 Sep 2015, 7:10 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
I will always view Jews as having the right to exist like everyone else and if you disagree with that I find it problematic. Why would you deny them the right to exist?

Then Palestinians also have the right to exist!
I don't take side between Israel and Palestine, as I want them both to live in peace; but they both act in ways that make peace impossible. That some Jews want genocide against the Palestinians is also something disturbing.



blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

14 Sep 2015, 8:23 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
blauSamstag wrote:
Galbwas wrote:
Yes, but the Israeli brutality towards Palestinians is not helpful to their claim of that land. I understand your viewpoint of "you lost it, so suck it it up" but its more complicated than that. The Palestinians lost their territory, then the Israelis spit in their face and took more than they were allowed, beat and harass the Palestinians, and when confronted with it they deny any claims of responsibility.


That, and right of return.

Well then let's let the native Americans return to their land and everyone keep returning and returning again until we are all "home." How does that sound?


Again there's a question of the scale of time. Also a question of treaties between sovereign nations.

We still have 1st generation displaced palestinians. 2nd generation displaced palestinians, many legal scholars believe, still have right of return.


But in Europe we have a lot of land that was stolen from the Jews and some of them are still living and definitely the second generation displaced are alive. Do you think Germany would give them everything back, as in property, or pay them off with money which is the most practical way to resolve this situation but the Gazans will need to put the bitterness behind them and be willing to move on and past this idea Jews must be wiped from the face of the earth. They would need to focus on building a lovely city out of Gaza and not fight with the Jews any longer. Why not just work toward that because if you think the Jews are giving up Israel it's not going to happen. It simply will not happen no more than you or I will go back to Europe and demand to live where our Great Grandparents did because mine came from Eastern Europe.


Germany paid reparations already.



Galbwas
Hummingbird
Hummingbird

User avatar

Joined: 8 Sep 2015
Age: 23
Posts: 19

14 Sep 2015, 8:51 am

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Uh, it was Germany. At the time, the Nazis were in power but they ran the German state and many Germans joined them

Yea, because it was a join or die deal. If you didn't join the Nazi party you would be jailed or killed etc. There were a lot of Germans who did not want to be Nazis.
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jews were starved to death, worked to death, gassed to death, or a combination of all three, which they paid the ultimate price....You are dealing with people who have gone through a genocide in Europe

Palestinians are beaten mercilessly. The children are shot by soldiers and run over by tanks for throwing rocks. (even though they shouldn't throw rocks at them, killing the kids because a rock hit you is not an appropriate response). teargassed by gasses deemed illegal in the U.S because of harm it causes. Etc.

It's Hypocritical that people support Israel because their forefathers went through a horrible deal. While the Palestinians go through a disturbingly similar ordeal and no one cares about them.



blauSamstag
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Apr 2011
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,026

14 Sep 2015, 11:39 am

Galbwas wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Uh, it was Germany. At the time, the Nazis were in power but they ran the German state and many Germans joined them

Yea, because it was a join or die deal. If you didn't join the Nazi party you would be jailed or killed etc. There were a lot of Germans who did not want to be Nazis.
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
Jews were starved to death, worked to death, gassed to death, or a combination of all three, which they paid the ultimate price....You are dealing with people who have gone through a genocide in Europe

Palestinians are beaten mercilessly. The children are shot by soldiers and run over by tanks for throwing rocks. (even though they shouldn't throw rocks at them, killing the kids because a rock hit you is not an appropriate response). teargassed by gasses deemed illegal in the U.S because of harm it causes. Etc.

It's Hypocritical that people support Israel because their forefathers went through a horrible deal. While the Palestinians go through a disturbingly similar ordeal and no one cares about them.


They learned everything they know from the austrian.



AspE
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Dec 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,114

14 Sep 2015, 2:50 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
When discussing Israel, people who side with the Palestinians in Gaza ignore the fact the Nazi ties and their desire to destroy the Jews, the same desire the Nazis had and implemented in The Final Solution.

Why ignore the Nazi connection between Arafat and his followers?

Arafat is related to the Mufti of Jerusalem who was a Nazi conspirator and wished to implement the Final Solution in Palestine during World War ii.

Why ignore it?
1. It's ancient history.
2. The Nazis would have oppressed Arabs too as in inferior race.
3. It unfairly demonizes modern Palestinians.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 18 Jun 2008
Gender: Female
Posts: 12,265

14 Sep 2015, 3:51 pm

AspE wrote:
ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
When discussing Israel, people who side with the Palestinians in Gaza ignore the fact the Nazi ties and their desire to destroy the Jews, the same desire the Nazis had and implemented in The Final Solution.

Why ignore the Nazi connection between Arafat and his followers?

Arafat is related to the Mufti of Jerusalem who was a Nazi conspirator and wished to implement the Final Solution in Palestine during World War ii.

Why ignore it?
1. It's ancient history.
2. The Nazis would have oppressed Arabs too as in inferior race.
3. It unfairly demonizes modern Palestinians.


It's not ancient history to the Palestinians nor is it to the Jews but the Jews want to try to move past it in the creation of their own state which is what they wanted all along so they could govern themselves and be free of persecution. The Palestinians want the Final Solution in the Middle East. It's what they want. They follow the sentiments of the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem who was a disciple of Adolf Eichmann.

I suggest you go visit the Palestinians in Gaza before calling them modern. I'm not sure if you are American or British or neither but...not sure if it would be a good idea for an American to visit Gaza. An American can visit Israel without fears of getting kidnapped and held hostage or worse.