Free Will
18 Sep 2015, 12:48 pm
Fnord wrote:
I believe in free will. I also believe that people who declare that free will is impossible are just looking for an excuse to abdicate all responsibility for their actions.
You describe an individual's lack of action/beliefs "AFTER THE ACTION/CHOICE HAS BEEN MADE" and their defending the chosen direction, or "non-direction" or their inability or fear to make choices.
And possibly "BEFORE THE ACTION/CHOICE HAS BEEN MADE", being too timid to take a chance and try something with an unknown conclusion (which frightens many people) they may have been raised instead to submit and maintain a low "safe" profile (might offend God?) rather than go forth and either create or follow previously unknown and uncertain paths. These people may have been "trained" to believe it's usually more correct to stick with the "tried and true" than the unknown. It's hard to break the old ingrained thought habits of your growth years.
I believe learning about the reality of what you can or can not accomplish can/may change an individual's attitudes over enough time, but it takes a strong desire on their part to change and a willingness to attempt something new.
20 Sep 2015, 9:54 am
Free will simply cannot exist.
Our decisions we make are based on our genetics and our environment, TWO FACTORS IN WHICH HAVE NO CONTROL.
Our decisions come primarily from our sub-conscious which is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from the conscious mind. If attempts were ever made at deciphering the sub-conscious, the results would be unintelligible at best. We do not actively control our sub-conscious.
Economic factors (in which we do not have individual control), also influence decision making. When people are stressed about money, they are more likely to also suffer from digestive and sleep problems, which impair decision making even further.
Our health influences our decisions. We can eat healthy and exercise all we want, but it doesn't always make a difference in our health.
Some people act on impulse and literally cannot control themselves, even though they know what they're doing is wrong.
Here is another real life example: A girl is raped repeatedly by her father and then step father as a young child. She witnesses her mother's (her mother was a residential school survivor) head get bashed in repeatedly into a china cabinet. She becomes a needle using junkie at 14 and ends up in a string of abusive relationships throughout the years. One of her daughters ends up in an abusive relationship. The girl I'm talking about is a 46 year old woman, that I ended up living with, when I was kicked out of my house for smoking marijuana (which I used to deal with ADHD, morning nausea and stomach pain - a factor I could not control). She told me all about how she ended up the way she did. None of it was her fault.
This woman used to scream at me randomly, and punch the walls in the mornings when she woke up. I became a severe drug addict while living with this woman, due to the stress of living with her, and then also working a minimum wage job, which didn't give me enough hours or pay to live. I moved out of this woman's house, started paying rent, really struggling, I had no friends, no phone, no TV, no internet, and no future.
I was forced to take drugs at work, otherwise I would break down and cry uncontrollably, right in the middle of my shift. I had rent, food, and hydro to pay for, so I had to keep doing drugs to function at work, so I could pay for rant, hydro, and food.
When my hours got cut even further, I had to resort to theft in order to feed myself- even though I know theft is wrong.
Do you see where I am going with this?
I no longer work, and I'm supported by my parents, and therefore, I am able to stay clean, because I don't have these other pressures forcing me to make the bad decision of using drugs.
Here is another example - people who are born to chain smoking, alcoholic parents, and become chain smoking alcoholics themselves, because of their genetic predisposition.
Free will is BS made up by religious zealots, overachievers, or people who have won the genetic lottery and are just "good at life". Free will is meant to make those who are less fortunate feel that they're circumstances are entirely their fault.
I've got news for you free willers. We are all just passengers in our own lives.
20 Sep 2015, 10:09 am
If free will does not exist, then we have no control over the decisions we make.
If we have no control over the decisions we make, then we are not guilty of the actions we take.
If we are not guilty of the actions we take, then we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit.
If we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit, then civilization based on ethics, justice, and morality is a null concept.
Without free will, there can be no punishment for even the most heinous of acts, because even mass murder would not be anyone's fault.
20 Sep 2015, 12:27 pm
There are other purposes as to why punishment can be beneficial, provided it's done in a fair way. There's the purpose of rehabilitation, deterrence, protecting society, and other purposes to punishment. It's not always (and should never be) about satisfying one's barbaric urges for vengeance or retributional justice.
21 Sep 2015, 12:02 pm
jkrane wrote:
Free will simply cannot exist.
Our decisions we make are based on our genetics and our environment, TWO FACTORS IN WHICH HAVE NO CONTROL.
Our decisions come primarily from our sub-conscious which is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from the conscious mind. If attempts were ever made at deciphering the sub-conscious, the results would be unintelligible at best. We do not actively control our sub-conscious.
Economic factors (in which we do not have individual control), also influence decision making. When people are stressed about money, they are more likely to also suffer from digestive and sleep problems, which impair decision making even further.
Our health influences our decisions. We can eat healthy and exercise all we want, but it doesn't always make a difference in our health.
Some people act on impulse and literally cannot control themselves, even though they know what they're doing is wrong.
Here is another real life example: A girl is raped repeatedly by her father and then step father as a young child. She witnesses her mother's (her mother was a residential school survivor) head get bashed in repeatedly into a china cabinet. She becomes a needle using junkie at 14 and ends up in a string of abusive relationships throughout the years. One of her daughters ends up in an abusive relationship. The girl I'm talking about is a 46 year old woman, that I ended up living with, when I was kicked out of my house for smoking marijuana (which I used to deal with ADHD, morning nausea and stomach pain - a factor I could not control). She told me all about how she ended up the way she did. None of it was her fault.
This woman used to scream at me randomly, and punch the walls in the mornings when she woke up. I became a severe drug addict while living with this woman, due to the stress of living with her, and then also working a minimum wage job, which didn't give me enough hours or pay to live. I moved out of this woman's house, started paying rent, really struggling, I had no friends, no phone, no TV, no internet, and no future.
I was forced to take drugs at work, otherwise I would break down and cry uncontrollably, right in the middle of my shift. I had rent, food, and hydro to pay for, so I had to keep doing drugs to function at work, so I could pay for rant, hydro, and food.
When my hours got cut even further, I had to resort to theft in order to feed myself- even though I know theft is wrong.
Do you see where I am going with this?
I no longer work, and I'm supported by my parents, and therefore, I am able to stay clean, because I don't have these other pressures forcing me to make the bad decision of using drugs.
Here is another example - people who are born to chain smoking, alcoholic parents, and become chain smoking alcoholics themselves, because of their genetic predisposition.
Free will is BS made up by religious zealots, overachievers, or people who have won the genetic lottery and are just "good at life". Free will is meant to make those who are less fortunate feel that they're circumstances are entirely their fault.
I've got news for you free willers. We are all just passengers in our own lives.
Our decisions we make are based on our genetics and our environment, TWO FACTORS IN WHICH HAVE NO CONTROL.
Our decisions come primarily from our sub-conscious which is COMPLETELY HIDDEN from the conscious mind. If attempts were ever made at deciphering the sub-conscious, the results would be unintelligible at best. We do not actively control our sub-conscious.
Economic factors (in which we do not have individual control), also influence decision making. When people are stressed about money, they are more likely to also suffer from digestive and sleep problems, which impair decision making even further.
Our health influences our decisions. We can eat healthy and exercise all we want, but it doesn't always make a difference in our health.
Some people act on impulse and literally cannot control themselves, even though they know what they're doing is wrong.
Here is another real life example: A girl is raped repeatedly by her father and then step father as a young child. She witnesses her mother's (her mother was a residential school survivor) head get bashed in repeatedly into a china cabinet. She becomes a needle using junkie at 14 and ends up in a string of abusive relationships throughout the years. One of her daughters ends up in an abusive relationship. The girl I'm talking about is a 46 year old woman, that I ended up living with, when I was kicked out of my house for smoking marijuana (which I used to deal with ADHD, morning nausea and stomach pain - a factor I could not control). She told me all about how she ended up the way she did. None of it was her fault.
This woman used to scream at me randomly, and punch the walls in the mornings when she woke up. I became a severe drug addict while living with this woman, due to the stress of living with her, and then also working a minimum wage job, which didn't give me enough hours or pay to live. I moved out of this woman's house, started paying rent, really struggling, I had no friends, no phone, no TV, no internet, and no future.
I was forced to take drugs at work, otherwise I would break down and cry uncontrollably, right in the middle of my shift. I had rent, food, and hydro to pay for, so I had to keep doing drugs to function at work, so I could pay for rant, hydro, and food.
When my hours got cut even further, I had to resort to theft in order to feed myself- even though I know theft is wrong.
Do you see where I am going with this?
I no longer work, and I'm supported by my parents, and therefore, I am able to stay clean, because I don't have these other pressures forcing me to make the bad decision of using drugs.
Here is another example - people who are born to chain smoking, alcoholic parents, and become chain smoking alcoholics themselves, because of their genetic predisposition.
Free will is BS made up by religious zealots, overachievers, or people who have won the genetic lottery and are just "good at life". Free will is meant to make those who are less fortunate feel that they're circumstances are entirely their fault.
I've got news for you free willers. We are all just passengers in our own lives.
I believe what you say is incorrect.
You say: "Here is another example - people who are born to chain smoking, alcoholic parents, and become chain smoking alcoholics themselves, because of their genetic predisposition."
Both of my parents smoked and drank heavily. And until I was 40 I did also. But then I decided it was time for a permanent change: I gave up smoking and some years later all drinking. Please explain how I was able to give up these things if I'm supposed to be "locked in" according to your belief.
Additionally, despite my wife also smoking and drinking, my two children never smoked or drank. How would your theory explain this?
I'll tell you how: Experts now claim genetics only account for approx. 10% of our tendency to over eat, smoke, etc..., the rest is YOU and can be changed. If a person would rather believe instead of 10% the number should be closer to 100% they've just given up and just haven't explored all the possibilities.
Just think: If, as you say, your environment when you grow up is so important to your eventual adult traits, then how is it you seem to believe your environment no longer plays a part later on? Do you believe a person stops learning at a certain age or that what they learn in later life will not affect them and the actions they choose?
Or is it as direct as Fnord says and people are just looking for an excuse to screw off and not take responsibility for their actions?
I think....for an individual....denying the possibility of changing your life for the better may be an indication Fnord is correct.
21 Sep 2015, 2:11 pm
Fnord wrote:
If free will does not exist, then we have no control over the decisions we make.
If we have no control over the decisions we make, then we are not guilty of the actions we take.
If we are not guilty of the actions we take, then we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit.
If we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit, then civilization based on ethics, justice, and morality is a null concept.
Without free will, there can be no punishment for even the most heinous of acts, because even mass murder would not be anyone's fault.
If we have no control over the decisions we make, then we are not guilty of the actions we take.
If we are not guilty of the actions we take, then we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit.
If we can not be convicted of the crimes we commit, then civilization based on ethics, justice, and morality is a null concept.
Without free will, there can be no punishment for even the most heinous of acts, because even mass murder would not be anyone's fault.
I think free will is something of a misnomer. An invention of human imagination. We are responsible for our actions, that is a law society decides. An individuals awareness of this law influences their actions. If the concept of free will did not exist, there would just be actions. Nothing much would change. There would still be time, even if we had no word for the concept, except there would not be time, just a sequence of events, and the sequence, like free will, would be imagined. Perhaps free will is something for the judicial system to pass sentence on. I don't think it matters if we believe we have it, unless we use it as a reason to be judgemental, or if we think we don't have it, unless we use it as an excuse to do whatever we like and harm others. There are only actions.
_________________
Nothing lasts but nothing is lost
21 Sep 2015, 2:45 pm
InsomniaGrl wrote:
Do we have free will? I think we neither have free will nor don't have it, and that free will is a construct of the imagination, like other things, like love and hate. Any thoughts?
The right of free will (freedom of thought) - The only one can't be enforced.
However nobody has free will because when it comes to actions, free will can and WILL always be policed. Since you don't live here by yourself, there are limitations/laws too keep the general public in order and a country or anything actually (a business, traffic, etc) generally functioning.
Imo the thing about us aspies, is we just don't pick up those unwritten social cues/laws/gestures or however you wanna call it while being totally "legal" (not being a danger to the environment - you won't get apprehended) you are basically losing much of your social potential. That is by the by, why I think we "love" being so organized with lists/charts and fixations, both socially and physically.
21 Sep 2015, 8:44 pm
Quote:
I don't think it matters if we believe we have it
One way to drive people towards irresponsibility is by convincing them that certain social scientific or mystical factors determine that making decisions under your own volition is impossible, and that doing that is therefore somehow wrong or inauthentic when it seems to occur. As Dennett points out, your stance on free will can influence the sorts of ways you are apt to interact with your neighbors.
22 Sep 2015, 5:01 am
ZenDen wrote:
I'll tell you how: Experts now claim genetics only account for approx. 10% of our tendency to over eat, smoke, etc..., the rest is YOU and can be changed. If a person would rather believe instead of 10% the number should be closer to 100% they've just given up and just haven't explored all the possibilities.
That's misleading. First of all, it's not necessarily the case that ALL tendencies to behave a certain way are 10% accounted for by genetics. Some go higher, and others may go even lower. Second, you forgot about the environment in this paragraph and instead jumped straight to the "you" without even considering other options.
And plus, what does "you" even mean in this context aside from how you are genetically and environmentally conditioned?
Quote:
Or is it as direct as Fnord says and people are just looking for an excuse to screw off and not take responsibility for their actions?
Maybe people who cling to free will just do so because they want to justify themselves being so damn judgmental of other?
And maybe they like to judge others because they feel so damn insecure about themselves that it's the only way to make them feel better about themselves?
How about we not psychoanalyse why people think the way they do and instead focus on whether what they believe in makes logical sense or not?
22 Sep 2015, 7:12 am
Nebogipfel wrote:
Quote:
I don't think it matters if we believe we have it
One way to drive people towards irresponsibility is by convincing them that certain social scientific or mystical factors determine that making decisions under your own volition is impossible, and that doing that is therefore somehow wrong or inauthentic when it seems to occur. As Dennett points out, your stance on free will can influence the sorts of ways you are apt to interact with your neighbors.
As i said i don't think it matters if we believe we have it, unless we use the concept of it, and the interpretation of it as a way to manipulate others. I don't think we have free will, and that stems from the fact that i don't think we have an 'I'. The word free can be interpreted as not being under the influence of another, such as a political party, or some other agent. Will may be interpreted as someone's mental control over their own actions. You could argue you have free will if you have mental control over your own actions, but who has mental control over your mental control. On a basic level if i am seemingly not being controlled by an other in my immediate environment, i could say i have free will. My ability for mental control though, is dependant on history, genetics, mood, intelligence, memory, and any number or other factors.
Morality one could argue, is a method of controlling free will, as my mental control is being manipulated by what others deem to be appropriate and or good and bad. Being 'free' does not mean i can choose between 'right' and 'wrong' and it be all my decision, as the right and wrong, and good and bad are not two choices, my mental ability in its free state is able to distinguish, as you first have to accept cultural ideas of right and wrong to begin with. These cultural 'choices' may be fair or unfair, logical or illogical, or whatever other criteria one might use to judge. Being gay for instance i might think, using free will, i should try to rid myself of, others may think that not necessary.
The only way have the word free preceding the word will seems to make any sense to me, is when its used as a short hand way of say, someone is not directly opposing my ability to think and make an action. Which doesn't really say a lot. Its not that i think we should do whatever we want and that doing anything else is inauthentic, this assumes free will is an absolute human state, i argue, it is not an absolute human state, because free will only exists in an sociological framework.
_________________
Nothing lasts but nothing is lost
22 Sep 2015, 12:18 pm
MCalavera wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
I'll tell you how: Experts now claim genetics only account for approx. 10% of our tendency to over eat, smoke, etc..., the rest is YOU and can be changed. If a person would rather believe instead of 10% the number should be closer to 100% they've just given up and just haven't explored all the possibilities.
That's misleading. First of all, it's not necessarily the case that ALL tendencies to behave a certain way are 10% accounted for by genetics. Some go higher, and others may go even lower. Second, you forgot about the environment in this paragraph and instead jumped straight to the "you" without even considering other options.
And plus, what does "you" even mean in this context aside from how you are genetically and environmentally conditioned?
Quote:
Or is it as direct as Fnord says and people are just looking for an excuse to screw off and not take responsibility for their actions?
Maybe people who cling to free will just do so because they want to justify themselves being so damn judgmental of other?
And plus, what does "you" even mean in this context aside from how you are genetically and environmentally conditioned?
How about we not psychoanalyse why people think the way they do and instead focus on whether what they believe in makes logical sense or not?
You said:
"That's misleading. First of all, it's not necessarily the case that ALL tendencies to behave a certain way are 10% accounted for by genetics. Some go higher, and others may go even lower."
Do you say this "off-the-cuff" or do you have a reason beside your imagination to correct my statement? If you have "sources" trot them out so we all may see which "...go higher, and others may go (even) lower."
Then you say: "Second, you forgot about the environment in this paragraph and instead jumped straight to the "you" without even considering other options.
I was obviously discussing the illogical reasoning that genetics was in control. Do you wish to ask me if I believe environmental factors are at work? Since the environment is everything outside of you I would never hold it did not have an effect....just not so strong effect that it can not be changed (overcome, if you like). I thought the "gist" of this would be plain to anyone reading my post....sorry.
You ask: "And plus, what does "you" even mean in this context aside from how you are genetically and environmentally conditioned?"
I merely point out all "conditioned" persons are in charge of their future growth. Many people like to point out they are totally controlled by their subconscious and Id (and previous learning), while I say your subconscious and to a lesser extent your Id are merely tools of your conscious mind and that modification of these portions of yourself are obviously under your control. If this were not true then people would NEVER change.....which we know to be untrue.
And "Conscious + Subconscious + Id = YOU"; and there are no separate, incommunicable persons inside you controlling your actions and destiny.
The difference is some believe change can come from inside while others (such as yourself?) insist it can not. If you think about it you may be able to recall someone who has changed their life for the better.
You said: "Maybe people who cling to free will just do so because they want to justify themselves being so damn judgmental of other?"
A very strong possibility for both those who believe in free will and those who don't. If one could see this tendency in themselves then, if they wished, they could modify it. Have you read anything about the art of Mindfulness?
22 Sep 2015, 1:54 pm
ZenDen wrote:
Do you say this "off-the-cuff" or do you have a reason beside your imagination to correct my statement? If you have "sources" trot them out so we all may see which "...go higher, and others may go (even) lower."
Very funny, but I did not see any source coming from you for your claim about what the experts say. Nevertheless, here's just one source for you that shows what you said was wrong:
http://www18.homepage.villanova.edu/die ... Traits.pdf
Go to Table 1, check the heritability rates for various traits and see how many of them are way above just 10%.
Quote:
I was obviously discussing the illogical reasoning that genetics was in control.
Illogical how? Did I miss a logical argument here for why genetics cannot be in control?
Quote:
Since the environment is everything outside of you I would never hold it did not have an effect....just not so strong effect that it can not be changed (overcome, if you like).
Ok, but people normally overcome various challenges in their lives because of new environmental changes they experience in their lives. Not because *magic* free will (whatever that means).
Quote:
I merely point out all "conditioned" persons are in charge of their future growth. Many people like to point out they are totally controlled by their subconscious and Id (and previous learning), while I say your subconscious and to a lesser extent your Id are merely tools of your conscious mind and that modification of these portions of yourself are obviously under your control. If this were not true then people would NEVER change.....which we know to be untrue.
Latest research in neuroscience says otherwise. We tend to make our decisions unconsciously and only after we make them do we become aware of them.
Quote:
The difference is some believe change can come from inside while others (such as yourself?) insist it can not.
That's not exactly what I believe. Not believing in free will does not mean believing changes can't result from the mind.
24 Sep 2015, 12:37 pm
MCalavera wrote:
ZenDen wrote:
Do you say this "off-the-cuff" or do you have a reason beside your imagination to correct my statement? If you have "sources" trot them out so we all may see which "...go higher, and others may go (even) lower."
Very funny, but I did not see any source coming from you for your claim about what the experts say. Nevertheless, here's just one source for you that shows what you said was wrong:
http://www18.homepage.villanova.edu/die ... Traits.pdf
Go to Table 1, check the heritability rates for various traits and see how many of them are way above just 10%.
Quote:
I was obviously discussing the illogical reasoning that genetics was in control.
Illogical how? Did I miss a logical argument here for why genetics cannot be in control?
Quote:
Since the environment is everything outside of you I would never hold it did not have an effect....just not so strong effect that it can not be changed (overcome, if you like).
Ok, but people normally overcome various challenges in their lives because of new environmental changes they experience in their lives. Not because *magic* free will (whatever that means).
Quote:
I merely point out all "conditioned" persons are in charge of their future growth. Many people like to point out they are totally controlled by their subconscious and Id (and previous learning), while I say your subconscious and to a lesser extent your Id are merely tools of your conscious mind and that modification of these portions of yourself are obviously under your control. If this were not true then people would NEVER change.....which we know to be untrue.
Latest research in neuroscience says otherwise. We tend to make our decisions unconsciously and only after we make them do we become aware of them.
Quote:
The difference is some believe change can come from inside while others (such as yourself?) insist it can not.
That's not exactly what I believe. Not believing in free will does not mean believing changes can't result from the mind.
You say: "Very funny, but I did not see any source coming from you for your claim about what the experts say. Nevertheless, here's just one source for you that shows what you said was wrong:"
Thanks for the link...it does show what you were referencing and it expands everyone's knowledge. However I don't see a reference to "free will" or any statement that your psychological traits can not be changed by deliberate choice. Perhaps I missed it. I see no refuting here.
You say: "Illogical how? Did I miss a logical argument here for why genetics cannot be in control????
BUT then you eventually say: "Not believing in free will does not mean believing changes can't result from the mind" which would indicate you DO believe (at least in some cases) that changes CAN be initiated in "the mind"...... and I contend you can make the choice of changes voluntarily while you feel the changes are not under any voluntary control....is that a correct summation of your ideas?
These "preferred" ideas would then lead to your statement: "Ok, but people normally overcome various challenges in their lives because of new environmental changes they experience in their lives. Not because *magic* free will (whatever that means.) But of course you only mean you prefer to make a choice of paths in reasoning because of some genetic factor you're not aware of or in control of....is this correct?
I contended the fact people ARE known to change their lives for the better and you answered:
"Latest research in neuroscience says otherwise. We tend to make our decisions unconsciously and only after we make them do we become aware of them."
Let's say we go to a fair and in one booth they are selling a food item you've never been fond of and normally an item you wouldn't think of purchasing. But then a friend insists you try the item because it has been prepared in a very special and delectable manner. So to humor your friend you try the item and find it delicious. Do you still feel you will ignore or avoid the item in the future? Will your subconscious also ignore the food item? Have you deliberately changed yourself and your subconscious by agreeing to try the item? Could you do this with any item or any belief?
Does it bother you that your subconscious will help make decisions while the "conscious you" continues to enjoy the fair?
As I've said, the Id, subconscious, and conscious are all part of YOU and are yours to freely use.
And referring back to your statement again you said: ".... Not because *magic* free will (whatever that means).
It's not magic at all. And "environmental changes" can mean anything from my example above to an individual's musing over the state of the world, where they will live or the path of their life.
If there's any magic to be found it's called "Learning." I'd say many people give up on learning and having an open mind when they get older. I believe you and the author (propounding this idea) of the paper you reference might agree.
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