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theprisoner
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01 Feb 2021, 10:27 am

George Orwell wrote:
if liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to know.


Noam Chomsky wrote:
The smart way to keep people passive and obedient is to strictly limit the spectrum of acceptable opinion, but allow very lively debate within that spectrum - even encourage the more critical and dissident views. That gives people the sense that there's free thinking going on, while all the time the presuppositions of the system are being reinforced by the limits put on the range of the debate.


Language is a very powerful thing. Read the polish genius Alfred Korzybski work on General semantics if you want an idea of what I'm talking about. Who and what defines the terms, controls the narrative. British gadfly Orwell lays this out plain and clear in his warning to the uninitiated ; 1984. American Chomsky is an outspoken iconoclast well versed in the field of linguistics and clearly recognizes the manipulation people are subjected to through a constant barrage of propaganda on a daily basis. Read Edward Bernays for an insiders perspective of how propaganda techniques were perfected in modern times.

"Authority" always seeks to; Control the definitions. Control the discussion . Control the mind. Control the perception of present. Control the perception of future/past. The only antidote is to always think for yourself and never stop questioning "Authority".


Alfred Korzybski wrote:
"If words are not things, or maps are not the actual territory, then, obviously, the only possible link between the objective world and the linguistic world is found in structure, and structure alone."


Edward L. Bernay wrote:
The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.


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theprisoner
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01 Feb 2021, 11:28 am

Randall Munroe. wrote:
"I can not remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you are saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it is not literally illegal to express..


Quoted for posterity.

Why do some people hate freedom of expression ?

Why do some people pathologically demonize the free flow of ideas in an open society?

Why do some people want to kill that?

Why do some people want to side with the suppressors of free thought?

Don't they know nearly every great mind in human history as experienced such suppression.

Because there was always one self righteous person or collective who thought they knew what was good for others, and was adamantly hellbent on enforcing his particular idea of correctness on all through power and intimidation.

Imagine wanting to side with advocates of Censorship, shutting down free speech, in the name of upholding the status quo morality of an established authority. That would be subservient and demeaning. Not to mention highly hypocritical. That's not for me. That would be a violation of my very existence. Bowing down to mass pressure from the authority of an unthinking herd is always the cowards way out. History proves this over and over again.

Which side are you on? the mind expanders or the mind constrictors? Everybody has to make that choice in life. It's the eternal Manichean battle that takes place in the heart and mind of every human since time immemorial.


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Fnord
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01 Feb 2021, 11:41 am

Why do some people want to abuse their right to free speech in order to verbally abuse others?

Why do some people want to abuse their right to free speech in order to deceive others with propaganda?

Why do some people try to provoke others into a conflict and then falsely claim to be the "real" victims?

Why do some people seem to express themselves constantly without ever really having much to say?


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theprisoner
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01 Feb 2021, 11:44 am

What did somebody say that hurt you so badly that you feel the need to always take that stance Fnord?


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theprisoner
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01 Feb 2021, 11:51 am

B.T.w Im not alone in my sentiments. This Discussion seems to almost unamnimously shred that's guys position with some very prescient rebuttals. All of course made possible only due to that terrible evil monstrous thing called the free flow of ideas.


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NaturalEntity
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01 Feb 2021, 3:41 pm

theprisoner wrote:
Randall Munroe. wrote:
"I can not remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you are saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it is not literally illegal to express..


Quoted for posterity.

Why do some people hate freedom of expression ?

Why do some people pathologically demonize the free flow of ideas in an open society?

Why do some people want to kill that?

Why do some people want to side with the suppressors of free thought?

Don't they know nearly every great mind in human history as experienced such suppression.

Because there was always one self righteous person or collective who thought they knew what was good for others, and was adamantly hellbent on enforcing his particular idea of correctness on all through power and intimidation.

Imagine wanting to side with advocates of Censorship, shutting down free speech, in the name of upholding the status quo morality of an established authority. That would be subservient and demeaning. Not to mention highly hypocritical. That's not for me. That would be a violation of my very existence. Bowing down to mass pressure from the authority of an unthinking herd is always the cowards way out. History proves this over and over again.

Which side are you on? the mind expanders or the mind constrictors? Everybody has to make that choice in life. It's the eternal Manichean battle that takes place in the heart and mind of every human since time immemorial.

Suppression leads to stagnation and eventually total stasis. Those things must be avoided.


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Tross
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01 Feb 2021, 4:17 pm

It seems we're heading into an era where people don't like to hear opposing opinions, and in the US in particular, that seems to have seeped into the government. Has the US resigned themselves to an indefinite cycle where half the population can be happy at a given time while the other half has to deal with being less relevant, with the positions switching around periodically?

To make matters worse, US politics seem to infect politics the world over, hence why even those of us who don't live in that country take an interest in what's going on there. The ridiculous "us vs them" mentality that Americans seem to subscribe to has certainly had an impact on Canadian politics in recent years. We've historically had limited interest in politics, and have had a tendency to vote practically rather than by affiliation to any one party, but in the last election we had, Liberals vs Conservatives especially took center stage, and there are certainly growing tensions between my Province and its next door neighbour.



theprisoner
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02 Feb 2021, 8:49 am

I'm only relatively young, but even i sense the difference in political climate that has developed. Unless you're wise beyond your years, you just will not have a clue what I'm talking about. And why the underlying postulates that govern a society are extremely important. Yes, America is the driving force in this world. 1945-present. And yes, suppression , not only leads to stagnation, or inertia, but also volcanic explosions in the political arena. Revolutions, evolutions. With so many historical developments coming to a close, especially in the area of advancing technology, and it's effect on human populations, I truly feel we are at a very crucial crossroads in human history.


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NaturalEntity
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02 Feb 2021, 2:01 pm

theprisoner wrote:
I'm only relatively young, but even i sense the difference in political climate that has developed. Unless you're wise beyond your years, you just will not have a clue what I'm talking about. And why the underlying postulates that govern a society are extremely important. Yes, America is the driving force in this world. 1945-present. And yes, suppression , not only leads to stagnation, or inertia, but also volcanic explosions in the political arena. Revolutions, evolutions. With so many historical developments coming to a close, especially in the area of advancing technology, and it's effect on human populations, I truly feel we are at a very crucial crossroads in human history.

You're right. And we must handle it well. For all of our sakes.


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Fnord
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02 Feb 2021, 2:04 pm

theprisoner wrote:
What did somebody say that hurt you so badly that you feel the need to always take that stance Fnord?
I think you already know.


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NaturalEntity
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02 Feb 2021, 2:15 pm

Fnord wrote:
theprisoner wrote:
What did somebody say that hurt you so badly that you feel the need to always take that stance Fnord?
I think you already know.

I'm afraid I'm a bit out of the loop on this one... (genuinely, honestly)


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02 Feb 2021, 2:41 pm

Quote:
Why do some people try to provoke others into a conflict and then falsely claim to be the "real" victims?


Playing the devils advocate here, sometimes people get themselves provoked by something that was not done intentional by the provoker. So are they playing the victim here if the provoker feels they got bullied and attacked?

To me playing the victim implies done with intent and then being the victim about it when you get consequences. Like bullies get provoked by their "victims" so they use that as a justification to bully the autistic or special needs student because of their strangeness or social issues or speech impairment, etc.

I am sure you understand what I am talking about here because of fnord derangement syndrome.


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Fnord
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02 Feb 2021, 2:46 pm

League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
Why do some people try to provoke others into a conflict and then falsely claim to be the "real" victims?
Playing the devils advocate here, sometimes people get themselves provoked by something that was not done intentional by the provoker. So are they playing the victim here if the provoker feels they got bullied and attacked?  To me playing the victim implies done with intent and then being the victim about it when you get consequences. Like bullies get provoked by their "victims" so they use that as a justification to bully the autistic or special needs student because of their strangeness or social issues or speech impairment, etc.  I am sure you understand what I am talking about here because of Fnord Derangement Syndrome.
My previous post on FDS was at least partially satirical, the other part being in reference to the s███storm directed at me earlier last year by several members.


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NaturalEntity
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02 Feb 2021, 3:28 pm

Fnord wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
Why do some people try to provoke others into a conflict and then falsely claim to be the "real" victims?
Playing the devils advocate here, sometimes people get themselves provoked by something that was not done intentional by the provoker. So are they playing the victim here if the provoker feels they got bullied and attacked?  To me playing the victim implies done with intent and then being the victim about it when you get consequences. Like bullies get provoked by their "victims" so they use that as a justification to bully the autistic or special needs student because of their strangeness or social issues or speech impairment, etc.  I am sure you understand what I am talking about here because of Fnord Derangement Syndrome.
My previous post on FDS was at least partially satirical, the other part being in reference to the s███storm directed at me earlier last year by several members.

Huh? This is the first I'm hearing of this... your views seem decent enough, though. It's probably not my place to ask what went on.


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02 Feb 2021, 3:34 pm

NaturalEntity wrote:
Fnord wrote:
League_Girl wrote:
Quote:
Why do some people try to provoke others into a conflict and then falsely claim to be the "real" victims?
Playing the devils advocate here, sometimes people get themselves provoked by something that was not done intentional by the provoker. So are they playing the victim here if the provoker feels they got bullied and attacked?  To me playing the victim implies done with intent and then being the victim about it when you get consequences. Like bullies get provoked by their "victims" so they use that as a justification to bully the autistic or special needs student because of their strangeness or social issues or speech impairment, etc.  I am sure you understand what I am talking about here because of Fnord Derangement Syndrome.
My previous post on FDS was at least partially satirical, the other part being in reference to the s███storm directed at me earlier last year by several members.
Huh? This is the first I'm hearing of this... your views seem decent enough, though. It's probably not my place to ask what went on.
All I will say is that they seemed to be focused on assumptions regarding my attitude, intent, and motivations.


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02 Feb 2021, 3:39 pm

I see.


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