Page 21 of 49 [ 777 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24 ... 49  Next

Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 33
Posts: 2,057
Location: England

24 Sep 2017, 11:07 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
I love how Venezuala is always the standard bearer for socialism by the right.


We're having a field day mainly because before it all went to s**t Venezuela was heaped with praise by the Western left, who often said we could learn lessons from the gloriously sexy "rebel angel" Hugo Chávez and his gallant battle for the poor. It's just too tempting a target.


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


Aristophanes
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,603
Location: USA

24 Sep 2017, 11:10 pm

Mikah wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
I love how Venezuala is always the standard bearer for socialism by the right.


We're having a field day mainly because before it all went to s**t Venezuela was heaped with praise by the Western left, who often said we could learn lessons from the gloriously sexy "rebel angel" Hugo Chávez and his gallant battle for the poor. It's just too tempting a target.

And the historical context is that most liberals made those claims circa 2005-7 when Chavez had his rhetorical fights with George W. Bush. It wasn't smart jumping in with Chavez, any politician from a third world country for that matter, but it's not as if Chavez was wrong about Bush being a moron.



Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 33
Posts: 2,057
Location: England

24 Sep 2017, 11:45 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Mikah wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
I love how Venezuala is always the standard bearer for socialism by the right.


We're having a field day mainly because before it all went to s**t Venezuela was heaped with praise by the Western left, who often said we could learn lessons from the gloriously sexy "rebel angel" Hugo Chávez and his gallant battle for the poor. It's just too tempting a target.

And the historical context is that most liberals made those claims circa 2005-7 when Chavez had his rhetorical fights with George W. Bush. It wasn't smart jumping in with Chavez, any politician from a third world country for that matter, but it's not as if Chavez was wrong about Bush being a moron.


I noticed most of the gushing after his death myself. Amusingly the same people often spoke fondly of another socialist paradise and its ruler, Fidel Castro. A man with a fondness for genital torture.

@Rushking, these failures are always called socialism when it appears to be working, then retrospectively deconstructed as "not socialism" when they fail.


_________________
As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man -
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began: -
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will burn,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!


marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

25 Sep 2017, 1:45 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
Liberals always concern themselves with taking a larger slice of the pie, but they never conceive of creating a larger pie.

In late stage capitalism the only thing that grows is finance and rent-seeking. Without technological advancement that actually improves the standard of living, all that happens is a bunch of wealth being funneled to the top.

If everyone is so stubborn in their thinking, I predict civilization itself will go through a very painful period. Humanity is basically f****d because too many people are shortsighted and simplistic.



DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,105
Location: The Infodome

25 Sep 2017, 1:55 pm

marshall wrote:
If everyone is so stubborn in their thinking, I predict civilization itself will go through a very painful period. Humanity is basically f****d because too many people are shortsighted and simplistic.


We are already in that painful period.

The increasing popularity of Bernie Sanders is a sign that this painful period is nearly over.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

READ THIS -> https://represent.us/


marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

25 Sep 2017, 2:33 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
marshall wrote:
If everyone is so stubborn in their thinking, I predict civilization itself will go through a very painful period. Humanity is basically f****d because too many people are shortsighted and simplistic.


We are already in that painful period.

The increasing popularity of Bernie Sanders is a sign that this painful period is nearly over.

I think it will get worse, unfortunately. It's not over by a long shot.



DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,105
Location: The Infodome

25 Sep 2017, 2:58 pm

marshall wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
marshall wrote:
If everyone is so stubborn in their thinking, I predict civilization itself will go through a very painful period. Humanity is basically f****d because too many people are shortsighted and simplistic.


We are already in that painful period.

The increasing popularity of Bernie Sanders is a sign that this painful period is nearly over.

I think it will get worse, unfortunately. It's not over by a long shot.


Your are right.

Keep spreading the gospel of cyber-socialism. Keep spreading the zesty leftist memes. We can't end this period quickly, but we can and should hasten its inevitable demise.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

READ THIS -> https://represent.us/


marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

26 Sep 2017, 12:48 pm

To be honest, I don't trust western media reports on Venezuela anymore. When talking about the authoritarianism of the government, there is never any mention of the constant contempt for democracy and violence dished out by the wealthy elites since Chavez first took office in 1998. No mention of the opposition putsch in 2002 that literally overthrew the elected government. At that time a large majority supported Chavez and the putschists eventually had to stand down in the face of growing protests. It's hard to expect a regime to maintain standards of democracy when the other side does not play by the rules.



Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

26 Sep 2017, 4:18 pm

"But that's not real socialism. If they had just implemented real socialism everything would be great!"

Venezuelan families scavenge for food to survive hunger

Caracas, Venezuela - As the economic and political crisis deepens in Venezuela, so do the levels of hunger.

A survey by a top university found the average Venezuelan has lost nine kilogrammes in the past year.

Many families are now forced to scavenge for food in what was once South America's richest country.

At a soup kitchen run by the Catholic Church in Caracas, there are rarely any leftovers. It only serves 100 children every day, so the kitchen, which runs on donations, is forced to turn people away.

"Every day, more children come. Our crisis is such that, as they say, shame has been forgotten," Judith Arcia, a cook at the soup kitchen told Al Jazeera.

"People would rather beg for a plate of food for their children, than watch them go hungry."


http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/v ... 15474.html


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


Biscuitman
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Mar 2013
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,370
Location: Dunking jammy dodgers

27 Sep 2017, 7:03 am

Aristophanes wrote:
I love how Venezuala is always the standard bearer for socialism by the right


Absolutely this. People who point at Venezuela and shout 'socialism' as an example of what all social democratic systems MUST be like remind me of the people who seem to feel the need to link all political conversations, people & ideas as either left or right.



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

27 Sep 2017, 7:57 am

Biscuitman wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
I love how Venezuala is always the standard bearer for socialism by the right


Absolutely this. People who point at Venezuela and shout 'socialism' as an example of what all social democratic systems MUST be like remind me of the people who seem to feel the need to link all political conversations, people & ideas as either left or right.

Yea. Instead of taxing the wealthy to remove bolivars from the market, Chaves almost exclusively used national oil revenue to fund government programs. He couldn't cut social spending because that would obviously piss off his base and cost him the election. He also couldn't borrow money during the downturn because all the banks pretty much boycotted his government (they obviously wanted the economy to crash in order to provoke regime change). With no other options, inflation spiked when the price of oil dropped suddenly. Rapid inflation caused the current crisis.

All of these things can happen in any mixed economy.



kitesandtrainsandcats
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2016
Age: 58
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,232
Location: Missouri

27 Sep 2017, 8:09 am

Kiprobalhato wrote:
i think it means that political/economic systems look good on paper because they don't often take into account basic human nature and greed, which is a pretty big reason they suck in practice.
Yep, that's it. I have seen/heard political science people and economic people say that, then define the specifics of why. It has been long enough ago that I don't recall the details of why.
The general principle could be said to be that a system is only as good or as bad as the people using it.


_________________
"There are a thousand things that can happen when you go light a rocket engine, and only one of them is good."
Tom Mueller of SpaceX, in Air and Space, Jan. 2011


marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

27 Sep 2017, 11:26 am

kitesandtrainsandcats wrote:
Kiprobalhato wrote:
i think it means that political/economic systems look good on paper because they don't often take into account basic human nature and greed, which is a pretty big reason they suck in practice.
Yep, that's it. I have seen/heard political science people and economic people say that, then define the specifics of why. It has been long enough ago that I don't recall the details of why.
The general principle could be said to be that a system is only as good or as bad as the people using it.

The thing is, hyperinflation can cause artificial scarcity in a mixed economy. Government ownership of business is not required at all. The problem is sellers need to sell their goods at a high enough price such that predicted inflation is accounted for when they buy in order to restock their inventory at a later time. This leads to an accelerating rate of inflation.

The Maduro tried to deal with this problem by introducing price caps, but it didn't work because sellers simply hoarded goods to sell on the black market. This is what has lead to food shortages. You can say using price caps to try and control inflation was a horrible failed policy, but price caps are not a feature of all forms of socialism. Market socialism does not endorse government intervention when it comes to setting prices. It merely endorses giving all workers employed by very large companies some say in certain decisions (instead of having the board of directors / CEOs making all the decisions).



BTDT
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Jul 2010
Age: 58
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,620

Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

02 Nov 2017, 1:16 pm

Socialist Venezuela, where your Christmas presents come from the State.

New 100,000-Bolivar Note Worth $2.42 (Now) Coming to Venezuela

A Venezuela bolivar note worth $2.42 on the black market will begin circulating as early as Thursday, lightening the load for people who carry backpacks full of cash for their daily errands.

The 100,000-bolivar denomination, which will be the country’s largest, seeks to stabilize the cash supply, President Nicolas Maduro said on state television. He blamed Colombia President Juan Manuel Santos for the monetary “attack,” alluding to the black market trading of the bolivar on the countries’ shared border.

“We have been updating the monetary cone while facing this attack on the currency,” Maduro said, suggesting that a “definitive solution” would mean almost completely eliminating cash transactions by next year.

Inflation, which the IMF estimated may exceed 2,300 percent next year, has caused cash shortages while the arrival of higher denomination bills has done little to solve the problem. The government is also hoarding dollars from oil exports and loans to make a $1.2 billion debt payment due Thursday.

Venezuela’s bolivar is worth 41,290 to the dollar on the black market, while the government’s weakest of two official exchange rates is 3,345 bolivars to the dollar.

Earlier, Maduro announced a 30 percent minimum wage increase ahead of December municipal elections and the holiday season. He also approved a one-time 500,000-bolivar “special Christmas bonus” to benefit 4 million households, adding that the government would give every child a toy and each household up to six kilograms of pork shoulder, a season favorite.


Papa Maduro loves the little children!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -venezuela


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!


Darmok
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 18 Dec 2015
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,030
Location: New England

05 Nov 2017, 10:57 pm

SOCIALISM CAUSES UNDERAGE PROSTITUTION

Adam Smith said there is a lot of ruin in a country, but Venezuela is getting ridiculous. How much lower can socialism drag that once-prosperous place? Venezuelans have eaten their pets and raided zoos for dinner; now, Telemundo reports (via Breitbart) that thousands of Venezuelan girls are turning to prostitution out of desperation:

A report from the American Spanish-language channel Telemundo recounts a 13-year-old girl’s experience of the sex trade.

“Neither my mother nor my father can give me the things I need, such as food or school necessities,” the girl said.
***
Oscar Misle, the director of the CECODAP, an organization seeking to prevent child abuse, said that approximately 45,000 young people had been forced to give up their ambitions to work as sex slaves or child prostitutes.

The number of Venezuelans selling sex has risen exponentially in recent years, as people are forced into the industry as a means of survival. Women charge between 80,000 to 160,000 bolivares, the equivalent of two to four dollars an hour, although some can be found for under a dollar.


http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2 ... tution.php


_________________
 
There Are Four Lights!