Why would a Sanders supporter vote Trump? I don't get it.

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Lukeda420
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09 Jun 2016, 4:36 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
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Besides that, there is no way you can tell me that she has a bigger ego than Trump.


No, I will not be making that argument. :lol:

You must admit, though, that Trump's political views seem to be genuinely held (even if some of them are stupid or dangerous or naïve). Hillary seems, to me, to say whatever she thinks others want her to say.


No I won't admit that. Trump says he's American first yet his ties are made in china, he said Hillary would make a great president and Bill was a great president. He's featured in Trump U ads flat out lying. I can't tell what that guy believes. Even CNN labeled him a liar and major news sites almost never use that word.

Hillary has changed positions over the years but the core of her philosophy hasn't really changed. She fought for a more progressive health care plan than The Affordable care act in the nineties. And I don't think it's a bad thing that she has changed a few position over the years. We all have shifts in our thinking from time to time and politicians are no different. The thing that has encouraged me is that as time went on she seems to have adopted some positions that are more in line with Sander's supporters.



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09 Jun 2016, 5:34 pm

I am not sure a lot of sanders supporters would vote for Trump so much as they don't want to vote for Hillary as an alternative to sanders. Regardless of what some think they aren't interchangable.


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kraftiekortie
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09 Jun 2016, 5:45 pm

You have to consider who you are voting for----if you don't want to vote for a particular person.



Lukeda420
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09 Jun 2016, 6:30 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
I am not sure a lot of sanders supporters would vote for Trump so much as they don't want to vote for Hillary as an alternative to sanders. Regardless of what some think they aren't interchangable.


There is a reason why Republicans are putting so much effort into voter suppression. Republicans do better when there is a lower turnout. Look up Paul Weyrich and his goo goo syndrome speech.

The other really important thing is Bernie is still a Senator and he and the Democrats need a President they can work with and Trump is not that person. You're absolutely right they are not interchangeable.

I fully expect Bernie to come out in full support of Hillary once the general campaign kicks off.



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09 Jun 2016, 8:13 pm

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No I won't admit that. Trump says he's American first yet his ties are made in china, he said Hillary would make a great president and Bill was a great president. He's featured in Trump U ads flat out lying.


These are all things he's said or done as a businessman. The job of a businessman is to make money and schmooze influential people. As an elected official his duties and priorities would be different.


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I can't tell what that guy believes. Even CNN labeled him a liar and major news sites almost never use that word.


"Even CNN"? CNN is sensationalist crap these days.



Lukeda420
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09 Jun 2016, 8:55 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
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No I won't admit that. Trump says he's American first yet his ties are made in china, he said Hillary would make a great president and Bill was a great president. He's featured in Trump U ads flat out lying.


These are all things he's said or done as a businessman. The job of a businessman is to make money and schmooze influential people. As an elected official his duties and priorities would be different.


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I can't tell what that guy believes. Even CNN labeled him a liar and major news sites almost never use that word.


"Even CNN"? CNN is sensationalist crap these days.


That doesn't Make any sense to me. Are you saying that we should just disregard all the inconsistencies and lies as just business?

And yes even CNN. Most major news organizations are sensationalist crap, I agree. I find it remarkable because they actually fact checked him. They hardly ever do that.



wowiexist
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09 Jun 2016, 10:03 pm

Everyone should remember that there are more than two choices. What about Gary Johnson or Jill Stein?



RoadRatt
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10 Jun 2016, 2:17 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
So what are you basing your opinion on then? Not everything is spin.


If you know anything about Hillary, you know she isn't progressive, not even in the slightest. She is for wars, interventions, fracking (though she changed her stance on this, I believe she will be for it again once in office), she has wall streets back (not the people of America's). I could go on and on. None of these are progressive stances. She only started spewing out progressive views after Sanders pulled her to the left.

Hillary is a phony, her political views blow with the changing political tides. If it will be a political gain for her, she will lean in that direction. That's not a leader, it's a fake and a fraud.

Check out what the first words to come out of people's mouths when asked about Hillary and Trump. It's quite telling imo. :)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ele ... 9a28ac5fce


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Lukeda420
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10 Jun 2016, 2:49 pm

Roadratt

Yeah I know enough about Hillary. Of course there are plenty of things I disagree with her on and you named several of them. On most issues though she has stayed relatively consistent. More so than any Republican I can think of except maybe Ron Paul.

The word leader does not appear in the constitution. We are electing representatives. I want them to follow the direction the voters want to go. I don't think that's a bad thing. If we were able to push her to the left during the campaign then we can keep pushing when she is in office. We won't be able to do that with Trump.

Bernie or bust just doesn't make sense. Third party candidates never win. Only Lincoln was able to pull that off. Republicans are putting millions of dollars to suppress voter participation because they do better with low turnout. So staying home out of frustration is just doing exactly what the Koch brothers and Republicans are hoping for. And any protest vote will just be ignored. Trump or Clinton really are the only viable options. Even if you don't agree that Hillary is a real progressive (it's largely a subjective term anyway) you have to agree that she is more progressive than Trump.



RoadRatt
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11 Jun 2016, 3:34 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:
The word leader does not appear in the constitution. We are electing representatives. I want them to follow the direction the voters want to go. I don't think that's a bad thing.


The problem is, our leaders don't follow the will/direction the voters want to go. They in fact don't listen to you as a voter at all, except when it's time to lure you into voting for them.

https://represent.us/action/theproblem-4/

There is an interesting video on the page, if you feel up to watching it.

A Princeton article entitled: Testing Theories of American Politics, showing that America is an Oligarchy:

https://scholar.princeton.edu/sites/def ... cs.doc.pdf

Lukeda420 wrote:
If we were able to push her to the left during the campaign then we can keep pushing when she is in office. We won't be able to do that with Trump.


I don't believe this will be the case with Hillary either, at least for the most part. Ever since Ronald Reagan our presidents have been working for corporations/billionaires, not the people of America. The Democrats throw Americans a bone once in a while which is more than Republicans will do but they still work for wall street rather than main street.

Lukeda420 wrote:
Bernie or bust just doesn't make sense. Third party candidates never win. Only Lincoln was able to pull that off. Republicans are putting millions of dollars to suppress voter participation because they do better with low turnout. So staying home out of frustration is just doing exactly what the Koch brothers and Republicans are hoping for. And any protest vote will just be ignored. Trump or Clinton really are the only viable options. Even if you don't agree that Hillary is a real progressive (it's largely a subjective term anyway) you have to agree that she is more progressive than Trump.


Both the Democrats and Republicans are corrupt as hell. A vote for either is a vote against your best interests.

Bernie had an uphill climb, the establishment threw everything they had at him to upend his campaign. Sanders knew the rules going in and he knew the corrupt system would be hard, if not impossible, to beat. If it weren't for our rigged political system Bernie might have actually won.

If our political system wasn't weighted so heavily in favor of our two party duopoly, a third party would stand a very good chance at defeating the Dems and Reps. Their are more Independents than there are Dems or Reps yet they are relegated to voting only for Democrats or Republicans. This is by design, which shouldn't be the case if our political system here in America where actually a fair system.


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docfox
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11 Jun 2016, 3:57 pm

Lukeda420 wrote:

Bernie or bust just doesn't make sense. Third party candidates never win. Only Lincoln was able to pull that off. Republicans are putting millions of dollars to suppress voter participation because they do better with low turnout. So staying home out of frustration is just doing exactly what the Koch brothers and Republicans are hoping for. And any protest vote will just be ignored. Trump or Clinton really are the only viable options. Even if you don't agree that Hillary is a real progressive (it's largely a subjective term anyway) you have to agree that she is more progressive than Trump.

That's hilarious coming from someone telling me to vote for Hillary because big business and corporate interests - including the Koch bros, support Hillary.

They've shifted because the Republicans aren't running a corporate Romney shill this time. Trump isn't going to put up with them when he can fund his own campaign, Bernie hates super PAC's - so what do you do? You pour money into Clinton. She's basically owned by the big banks & telecom companies she's saying she'll break up. Also, "Push her more to the left when she's in office" makes no sense. She hasn't ACTUALLY shifted to the left lol. She's saying whatever her 800 campaign staff are telling her to say to win Sanders voters, once she's elected you can bet she's going right back to her casual moderate neocon agenda.

Clinton is the very embodyment of "what corporate America is hoping for". Corporate America doesn't want a Trump win, believe me, and they definitively didin't want Sanders. So they're pulling out all the stops to ensure a Clinton victory.


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YippySkippy
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11 Jun 2016, 4:05 pm

what RoadRatt said +1

I don't know how anyone can see a father and son being President, and now potentially a husband and wife, and NOT realize that America has become an oligarchy. And not even purely an oligarchy, because the oligarchs themselves are puppets for multi-national corporations, billionaires, and even other world leaders.



Lukeda420
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11 Jun 2016, 4:07 pm

Roadratt,

You know I don't disagree with most of what you're saying. We'll have to agree to disagree on exactly where Hillary stands. Time will tell on that.

The thing is we have to be pragmatic and work with the rules as they are. Yes the democratic party is largely corrupted but nit nearly to the extent that the Republicans are.

The democratic party still has a large number of progressives in the party. Elizabeth Warren, Alan Grayson, Jan Schakowsky, Bernie Sanders to name a few. We have a two party state and that isn't going to change anytime soon. So are best bet in making progress in this country is to infiltrate the democratic party and weed out the bad elements.

The Congressional Progressive Caucus needs a president they can work with and put pressure on. That will not happen with Trump. Bernie Sanders is going back to the senate with more clout then he has ever had. We can't just throw up our hands and say they're all corrupt so what's the difference. Corporations are spending millions of dollars to make people believe that very thing. We can't let the win. Even if progress is slow we have to keep pushing.

A third party has the best chance of succeeding on a local level. There the lift will not be as heavy. We need to start at the bottom and play the long game. We need to recruit real liberals to run for local offices and have them work their way up to more powerful positions. Local politics has the biggest impact on peoples personal lives anyway.

The two party system has been with us since the beginning, a constitutional amendment is needed to change that. So sorry to say but right now there are only two viable options for President, Donald Trump or Hillary Clinton. And with the supreme court up for grabs, the choice is clear.



Lukeda420
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11 Jun 2016, 4:22 pm

docfox wrote:
Lukeda420 wrote:

Bernie or bust just doesn't make sense. Third party candidates never win. Only Lincoln was able to pull that off. Republicans are putting millions of dollars to suppress voter participation because they do better with low turnout. So staying home out of frustration is just doing exactly what the Koch brothers and Republicans are hoping for. And any protest vote will just be ignored. Trump or Clinton really are the only viable options. Even if you don't agree that Hillary is a real progressive (it's largely a subjective term anyway) you have to agree that she is more progressive than Trump.

That's hilarious coming from someone telling me to vote for Hillary because big business and corporate interests - including the Koch bros, support Hillary.

They've shifted because the Republicans aren't running a corporate Romney shill this time. Trump isn't going to put up with them when he can fund his own campaign, Bernie hates super PAC's - so what do you do? You pour money into Clinton. She's basically owned by the big banks & telecom companies she's saying she'll break up. Also, "Push her more to the left when she's in office" makes no sense. She hasn't ACTUALLY shifted to the left lol. She's saying whatever her 800 campaign staff are telling her to say to win Sanders voters, once she's elected you can bet she's going right back to her casual moderate neocon agenda.

Clinton is the very embodyment of "what corporate America is hoping for". Corporate America doesn't want a Trump win, believe me, and they definitively didin't want Sanders. So they're pulling out all the stops to ensure a Clinton victory.


You know she'll have to campaign again right? We just need to stay involved after the campaign as well.

When Clinton was in Congress she voted the same way as Bernie 93 percent of the time. With our option right now, that's close enough for me.

Trump is corporate America. He has bragged about how he bought politicians to get favorable treatment. Why would he suddenly change because he's running for president?

Trump has shown how inept he will be at his job with the insane amount of sheer stupidity he has displayed over the campaign. He has no idea how international diplomacy and relations work and he has shown no sign that he is even interested in learning. He was born a millionaire and has no idea how to relate to the middle class. He referred to a million dollars as a small loan. That's just as bad as when Romney suggested that people should just borrow money from their parents to go to college. He has shown over his career that he cares about nothing but his brand. Why does anyone think that will change anytime soon. I suspect there is a good reason why he doesn't want to release his tax return like Hillary has, and it's nit because he's being audited. Even if it were he could just release last year's or the year before that.



Lukeda420
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11 Jun 2016, 4:23 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
what RoadRatt said +1

I don't know how anyone can see a father and son being President, and now potentially a husband and wife, and NOT realize that America has become an oligarchy. And not even purely an oligarchy, because the oligarchs themselves are puppets for multi-national corporations, billionaires, and even other world leaders.


Yeah, why vote for a puppet when you can just vote for the guy pulling the strings. Yeah that makes sense.